Trunks vs Cooler

[Senzu_Bean]

I have no idea what you're talking about here but it doesn't matter.

Dore wasn't stronger than Sauza, either, so that blows those battle powers' credibility to heck.

He was, according to the officially battle powers. Again, lets end it here.

[Savage68]

He was, according to the officially battle powers.

According to the movie, he definitely wasn't.

[LeprikanGT]

I'm still gonig with Trunks. He isn't a character to just play around with an opponent and give him the chance to make a mistake and he defeated both Frieza and Cooler Beyond easily. He is he was to actually power up and go in for the kill, he could make it.

Now, I'm going to have to watch that movie again to see them all fight, especially since they are all playable in the new game. <3

[Senzu_Bean]

According to the movie, he definitely wasn't.

He wasn't. He was... you believe he wasn't, I certainly don't see why he is weaker. I'm out of the debate since we can't agree to stop it.

[Savage68]

He isn't a character to just play around with an opponent and give him the chance to make a mistake and he defeated both Freeza and Cooler Beyond easily.

Trunks fought Coola?

He wasn't. He was... you believe he wasn't, I certainly don't see why he was not.

Piccolo shoots a generic yellow-ish ki blast. It overwhelms Dore, and kills him. Piccolo shoots two identical ki blasts at Sauza. Sauza deflects each of these with ease. And throughout the whole movie, Sauza's built up to be the leader of Coola's Armored Corps. If not, still stronger than his teammates.

[LeprikanGT]

He isn't a character to just play around with an opponent and give him the chance to make a mistake and he defeated both Freeza and Cooler Beyond easily.

Trunks fought Coola?

He wasn't. He was... you believe he wasn't, I certainly don't see why he was not.

Piccolo shoots a generic yellow-ish ki blast. It overwhelms Dore, and kills him. Piccolo shoots two identical ki blasts at Sauza. Sauza deflects each of these with ease. And throughout the whole movie, Sauza's built up to be the leader of Coola's Armored Corps. If not, still stronger than his teammates.

Whoops, he defeats Frieza and KIND COLD with out even trying, so if he powers up to his fullest, I think it would be no contest.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If Trunks was around Goku on Namek, he wouldn't have been so confident, or really able to kill Freeza with the ease that he did. Provided the power increase for Freeza was as much as you say it is.

Just to note, Freeza was suppressed at the time he fought Trunks. Gohan said, in response to Freeza's power, "This is nothing...he can get much stronger than this...". I doubt he saw Trunks as a real threat, especially since he still believed he could defeat a Super Saiyan who'd previously beaten him. I still put that down to typical villain arrogance, though. I think Freeza grew much stronger, but was still not quite as powerful as Namek SSj Goku (since Yardrat SSj Goku, who had probably only barely gotten stronger from on Namek since he was concentrating on controlling SSj and learning Shunkan-Ido, had killed him in Trunks' timeline).

[Senzu_Bean]

And throughout the whole movie, Sauza's built up to be the leader of Coola's Armored Corps.

Leader doesn't mean stronger. King Cold is the leader of whatever their clan's business is yet he isn't the strongest. The leader of Kaioshins isn't the strongest either.

And are you referring to the same Piccolo that going by the movie's events is without a doubt much stronger than Goku? Ignoring that obvious fucked up logic he too can hold back, right? If Goku can, he surely can too.

[Savage68]

Leader doesn't mean stronger.

I never said it did. Sauza still proved himself to be stronger than Dore.

And, uh... whatever happened to agreeing to disagree?

[Senzu_Bean]

Leader doesn't mean stronger.

I never said it did. Sauza still proved himself to be stronger than Dore.

And, uh... whatever happened to agreeing to disagree?

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish but this is getting weird. I'm out! Agree to disagree, yeah...

[LeprikanGT]

Although off topic of the thread, I'm going to go with Sauza being the most powerful based just on the ease it took to kill him.

BUT easier to kill is not always a gauge of strength. More popular and lasted longer, yes.....stronger, we will never know.


Super Saiyan Trunks for the win.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think this is just an unanswerable question, now. DBZ Movie 5 itself has its characters' powers all messed up, and isn't even canon (nor fits in the main timeline or Trunks'; only a completely alternate one, in my opinion--it's said/implied that Goku killed Freeza on Namek).

[Kaboom]

I don't know what everyone's having a hard time with. Compared to others, this film is relatively easy to figure out.

Sauzer lasting a little longer than the others against Piccolo doesn't automatically prove him stronger than them. It was all he could do to run away (which might imply he's simply nimbler than his cohorts, if anything), and he was only saved from certain death by Coola's appearance. Either way, none of them were even close to a match for the green man. Nor were they doing any good against Goku, whose fight with them was short and ultimately also interrupted by Coola. Their levels are high enough, however, to defeat Gohan at 200,000 or so when surprising and ganging up on him. Gohan never got a Senzu for himself, so he was still wounded and tired when he lost to Sauzer again later.

So there's nothing damningly wrong or flawed with the Armored Squad's official levels. Are they a bit of a "tight fit?" Yes, I'll admit it. But can they still work? No doubt. The folks at Weekly Jump knew what they were talking about when they came up with them.

The Freeza battle HAS already happened in Movie 5. Goku has defeated Freeza, and Coola knows that Goku is a Super Saiyan, even if he doesn't really know what that entails. Taking Battle Powers into account with this established, Goku has to at least start off at around 3,000,000 like with Freeza. He can't be any weaker than that; only a little stronger if you assume he's his post-Yardrat self and this movie "happens" sometime very early in the 3-year training for the Androids.

Furthermore, nothing in the movie says Goku got a zenkai (for one, those all but disappear after becoming a Super Saiyan, but that's probably not worth dwelling on in this topic). At best, you could choose to interpret it that way. Or you could see it as Goku finally displaying his full power when Sauzer's scouter exploded, having fully realized the threat and no longer screwing around. In typical, "the final battle is about to begin" narrative fashion. Of course, this would require admitting that he was previously holding back to some degree in the first place, so I can see how this idea would be counter-productive to other viewpoints.

The only actual power-related inconsistency in the film is something from Coola himself. He somehow thinks base Goku (no Kaio-Ken, no transformations, nothing) was strong enough to defeat Freeza. But he later exclaims that Super Saiyan was what allowed him to do it.

[Savage68]

He later says that Super Saiyan was the reason why Freeza was "no match" for Goku, not that Super Saiyan was the reason why Freeza was defeated.

[Senzu_Bean]

Nor were they doing any good against Goku...

Aren't you confusing Piccolo with Goku?

Their levels are high enough, however, to defeat Gohan at 200,000

Gohan should be much, much stronger than 200,000 after get that Zenkai against Freeza.

[Kaboom]

He later says that Super Saiyan was the reason why Freeza was "no match" for Goku, not that Super Saiyan was the reason why Freeza was defeated.

A bit wordplay-ish, don't you think? The strong implication is still there.

Aren't you confusing Piccolo with Goku?

Dore grabbed hold of him for a few seconds after getting kneed in the gut. Goku was about to break free, but decided to let Naise kick his teammate in the face instead. Other than that one grab, they couldn't touch him, even 3-on-1.

Gohan should be much, much stronger than 200,000 after get that Zenkai against Freeza.

That IS his official end-of-Freeza level. 200,000, and "higher when enraged." Apparently when he gets super-pissed-off, his power can approach 1,000,000 and this allowed him to smack around 2nd-form Freeza a bit. But he never displayed that level of rage or power in this film, so the best we can assume is that 200,000 is still his normal max.

[Senzu_Bean]

Dore grabbed hold of him for a few seconds after getting kneed in the gut. Goku was about to break free, but decided to let Naise kick his teammate in the face instead.

Neiz, Sauzer and, specially, Dore blocked easily Goku's ki blasts and Dore was unaffected by Goku's attack. Goku surely couldn't break free and then he later had trouble in deflecting Sauzer's blast. Seems a little bit too evenly for someone above 3,000,000.

That IS his official end-of-Freeza level.

No, it is his battle power at the start of the fight with Freeza. Of course he is much stronger after the Zenkai.

[Kaboom]

Seems a little bit too evenly for someone above 3,000,000.

Which only means that Goku wasn't trying very hard.

No, it is his battle power at the start of the fight with Freeza.

Prove it.

Or don't bother, if you don't wish to. I know better at this point than to humor any sort of "discussion" with you, and don't think I have anything left to really say in this thread anyway. I just hope my main post from earlier managed to clear up some confusion for other members who may have been reading along and gotten false impressions.

[Senzu_Bean]

Which only means that Goku wasn't trying very hard.

Holding back at the point of being in disadvantageous is ludicrous.

Prove it.

Just read the Kanzentai entry on the issue.

[Kaboom]

Holding back at the point of being in disadvantageous is ludicrous.

Again, Goku was never at a disadvantage. Watch the fight again.

Just read the Kanzentai entry on the issue.

Upon re-examination, the V-Jump article in question does refer to the earlier portions of the battle, at least insofar as Vegeta's listing. However, it also includes Goku's 3 million rating and its boosted levels, and Freeza's fully-powered levels as well. No specification is made for Gohan, so I'm still willing to hold that it's his maximum.

It seems more sensible for him to cap out at that level, given that his last clash before that was against someone at 23,000, and despite winning he wasn't exactly dominating. A steady growth during battle, including a big zenkai, from about 30,000 or so to 200,000 makes more sense than suddenly jumping from one to the other, right?