deleted

[Nazi Cola]

I am not talking about the Zenkai... it is not that huge if you compare to Goku who gone from 90,000 to 3 million


Vegeta ate a Senzu after fighting Reecome.

Vegeta is afraid with Ginyu (120,000) and Goku (90,000) power

Vegeta goes to Freeza's ship and take a quick nap

Vegeta fight Freeza (530,000) equally

Nah, Goku was only at 300,000 after his zenkai. He was using the Kaio-ken the whole time, it just didn't show.

[Fox666]

All sources states otherwise...

[Nazi Cola]

All sources states otherwise...

Where specifically?

[astrallite]

It's highly unlikely Goku was only 300,000 base. He came to Namek significantly stronger than Vegeta even without Kaioken. I can't see Vegeta going from being 1/4 the strength of base Goku (24,000 to 90,000) to several times stronger just because he has 1 more zenkai.

Vegeta was the only one who could remotely keep up with the 4th form of Freeza, so you would think his battle power would probably be at least 1,500,000.

[Nazi Cola]

Goku had such good control over the Kaio-ken at that point that he could use it without the crimson aura even showing up. I mean, why would he allow himself to be on the losing end and only use it like twice in order to gain a quick advantage over Freeza? Exactly. He was using it the whole time.

Base: 300,000
KKx2: 600,000
KKx10: 3,000,000 (enough to be on par with Freeza before any powering up was done on Freeza's part, but not enough to do anything against 50% Freeza)
KKx20: 6,000,000 (enough to match 50% Freeza for a bit)
SSjin: 15,000,000

See? Works!

[p123]

Oi the 300k thing! Jesus, that never gets old huh?

Hey, Nazi Cola, break down

Goku/Vegeta

Freeza/MechaFreeza/Androids Arc

Vegeta would logically have a huge gap on Goku if his base was that weak. Vegeta's base is definitley in the 2 million plus range.And you have Goku at 300k. What about Trunks/Future Gohan, they are suggested to be similar to Goku Namek. So everyone is 300k and Vegeta is 10x stronger right? Right...


Hey, if he made it this long with the 300k stuff, I doubt he will ever wise up. 300k is a pro low number movement thing. It really holds no weight, and if anyone thinks about it for about half a second, you would realize how illogical it is...

But anyway, moving on....


Oh yea, Vegeta's zenkai is actually a continous one, just like how Gohan/Kuririn's power up is a continous one. Plot device ? Sure, but that's the way the story goes.


Vegeta initially wants nothing to do with Goku/Ginyu. By the time Jeice comes around he is logically stronger much like how Gohan/Kuririn are now stronger. Then after some time he is much much stronger, just like how Gohan/Kuririn are much much stronger.


So Vegeta's power is aligned with Gohan/Krillens. They all get continous powerups and its ridicolous of course. Hey this is the Freeza Saga, home of the ridicolous powerups of the series..


Piccolo/Gohan/Kuririn/Vegeta/Goku are receive unwarranted power ups throughout it. Logically they should all be crushed by Freeza's 530k but they find a way to make these guys relevant. Plot device indeed. But hey that's the story, and we gotta stick to it.

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu and other databooks all states Goku as not using the Kaio-ken to begin with

I don't buy that "continuous Zenkai" thing...

[p123]

Well it's true. I wouldn't go on about it unless it was.

Gohan / Kuririn receive a continous power up. Vegeta receives a continous zenkai.


Vegeta actually confirms this with his statements. He says he keeps getting stronger and stronger as time passes. Or something like that , that indeed implies this.


There's really nothing else, and as Vegeta actually implies it himself, no reason to go against it.

[Fox666]

He didn't implied they had continuous Zenkais. He only implies the power of them was growing, in other words they had several power-ups recently (which we know they had).

Vegeta power increase because he took a nap. While it's sort of a lame explanation, it's the only there out of a mistake of the author.

[p123]

Exactly, Vegeta's power is growing. Growing=continous. As you can see Gohan and Kuririn's power is growing as well. It's pretty obvious Gohan/Kuririn/Vegeta are all tied at the hip with their growing power.

I mean of course, you can go with the nap theory. But for me, it's not gonna be good enough to say that a nap equals nearly a 10 fold power up.

[dbgtFO]

Now I will comment the numbers themselves...
(Goku) First Appearance: 10

This is Goku as he appear in the beggining of the manga. This is obvious to compare him to a regular human who has a battle power of 5.
Goku power was certainly brutal at the beggining of the series:
This is one of the rare cases I have questions about the validity of a value. This is a odd value different from the others.
Goku was times stronger than Mr. Satan already. He was able to pull a montain and impress Kame-sennin.
I certainly would be happier if it was something like 50. But I am not here to especulate!

Am I being ignored?

You know, that's exactly, why I feel Battle Powers pre Saiyan Arc is useless, because at that time, the characters hadn't shifted focus from purely physical strength to purely ki strength/size/control whatever.
After King Piccolo's defeat, Goku, Mr. Popo, Piccolo and Kami are the only ones, who now uses more of their ki strength/control in battle, than physical strength, while people like Krillin and Tenshinhan only uses ki to float/fly and shoot ki blasts with.

I could logically say, that Kuririn pre Roshi training had a BP of 6, but is physically a LOT stronger, than the Farmer with Shotgun, because neither of them has any control over it what-so-ever.

Goku being at 10 is logical, since he is a Saiyan and has more potential for power, than earthlings. But that doesn't equate to him only being 2 times stronger than the farmer, because the story implies the farmer is nothing special and can't do half the stuff Goku did at age 12.

So all in all having BPs for a time period, where ki control/size wasn't the important thing, but rather raw physical strength, is simply not the best thing and I would wish, they at least tried to clarify, that there is a difference in physical strength and ki.

As found on page 2 of this thread...

This gives his battle power with the Kaioken as:
- Kaioken 2x: 16,000
- Kaioken 3x: 24,000
- Kaioken 4x: 32,000
Nothing special about it.

Actually the Kaioken chart can only work, if Vegeta somehow "magically" is able to increase the power of his attack without his BP/FP going up as well, because EVERYTHING in the story says, that neither Vegeta or Nappa knew how to increase/lower their BP/FP reading before the battle on Earth.
Check out Vegeta's reaction to Gohan's masenko for instance, or Vegeta claiming Goku's FP has surpassed his(which was at over 21.000), he wouldn't say that, if he is able to produce an attack with the same power, as Kaioken*3 Goku's kamehameha.

Nappa: 4,000
Some fans seem to doubt this value, but I don't think it's the case. Nappa got some good hits from fellas with a power in the range of the 1,000.

Nappa was caught off guard most of the time, which Piccolo also states is his weakness.
Nappa being at 4000, is a very flawed guess. Whoever came up with it, did obviously only read the first part of Nappa's fight with the Z squad and Goku, or maybe they were just ****ing blind. Don't forget the fact, that all Nappa is worried about is how big Fight Powers are, so if he only had ½ the power of Goku, it wouldn't make sense for him to be confident in defeating him.
Seriously...

(Goku) Versus Freeza: 3 million
Freeza 50%: 60 million
Freeza 100%: 120 million
(Goku) Super Saiyan: 150 million

In the manga, Goku easily defeated Freeza with 100% of his power.

I agree, I always interpreted their fight, as one sided.
While Freeza got in some good hits and was able to dodge and all, Goku for the most time didn't say a word and was fully focused, whereas Freeza looked like he had to work the hardest just to keep up with Goku.
All in all, if Goku had wanted to, he could have finished Freeza at every point in the battle, but he didn't, because A, he wanted to face the strongest in the universe and B he wanted to humiliate this being.

[Fox666]

Am I being ignored?

No way!

I understand what you say. But I don't really there is such a separation beetween body and Ki in Dragon Ball. But I could be very wrong, since this is given in the Daizenshuu...

Actually the Kaioken chart can only work, if Vegeta somehow "magically" is able to increase the power of his attack without his BP/FP going up as well, because EVERYTHING in the story says, that neither Vegeta or Nappa knew how to increase/lower their BP/FP reading before the battle on Earth.
Check out Vegeta's reaction to Gohan's masenko for instance, or Vegeta claiming Goku's FP has surpassed his(which was at over 21.000), he wouldn't say that, if he is able to produce an attack with the same power, as Kaioken*3 Goku's kamehameha.

Not everything is proportional to the battle power.

I.e. Goku with 90,000 was faster than Ginyu with 120,000 - and Ginyu declared Goku's body faster despite having mere 23,000

The same goes for blast attacks. Vegeta is much better at blast attacks than Goku.

Nappa was caught off guard most of the time, which Piccolo also states is his weakness.
Nappa being at 4000, is a very flawed guess. Whoever came up with it, did obviously only read the first part of Nappa's fight with the Z squad and Goku, or maybe they were just ****ing blind. Don't forget the fact, that all Nappa is worried about is how big Fight Powers are, so if he only had ½ the power of Goku, it wouldn't make sense for him to be confident in defeating him.
Seriously...

In several moments characters declare that the Scouter is wrong. It doesn't seem to be a more trustable technology than Microsoft Windows. "The Scouter is broken!!" can even be considered a Dragon Ball cliché

[dbgtFO]

I understand what you say. But I don't really there is such a separation beetween body and Ki in Dragon Ball. But I could be very wrong, since this is given in the Daizenshuu...

Toriyama's own thoughts on ki and limitations of the body:

Toriyama references these sorts of words that have 気/ki in them in the SEG: Story Volume, where he connects them to the DB conception of ki:

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Not everything is proportional to the battle power.
I.e. Goku with 90,000 was faster than Ginyu with 120,000 - and Ginyu declared Goku's body faster despite having mere 23,000

Ginyu was fighting Goku at the level of 90,000 at that moment, and Jeice was able to keep up with Ginyu in Goku, does this mean, that Jeice's speed is comparable to Goku's? Nah I don't think so.

The same goes for blast attacks. Vegeta is much better at blast attacks than Goku.

If Vegeta's Galick Gun had special properties like that, then the Daizenshuu should have stated it somewhere, yet the only thing I recall, was that it was similar to Kamehameha.

In several moments characters declare that the Scouter is wrong. It doesn't seem to be a more trustable technology than Microsoft Windows. "The Scouter is broken!!" can even be considered a Dragon Ball cliché

Nappa knows Goku is over 8000, gets beat up and is told by Vegeta, that he just needs to calm down to win the fight.
If Nappa wasn't close to Goku's level he would be shitting his pants, yet he wasn't. For a being who has relied on scouter technology for the most of his life and who shares the mind set, like all of Freeza's soldiers do, that a higher Battle Power equals victory he would have to be pretty close to Goku's level to have such confidence.
And Goku's stament about their fight taking all day, if it goes on like this, coupled with Vegeta's statement, that Goku wouldn't even be able to defeat Nappa at the level he was fighting Vegeta, shows us, that Nappa was very close to 8000, slightly inferior at best.

[p123]

Agreed, Ginyu was suppressed against Goku.

Freeza fights evenly with SSJ Goku on several occassions. Not to mention after the barrier he states that he lost power. They are definitley on par with each other.


Nappa is definitley on par with Goku. Nappa is at minimum 8k, and if not he is direct equals with Goku dependant on how much over 8k Goku is. Goku/Vegeta both concede that the battle will take all day, and their fight in even after he calms down.

[Rocketman]

Ki control is a mental game, and Vegeta had been awake for a straight week before his nap. The nap itself didn't give him a power boost, it gave his mind getting a chance to rest and focus.

[p123]

I don't think Gohan/Kuririn took a nap. Yet they powered up tremendously from GokuGinyu to Freeza.

[Senzu_Bean]

Honestly those guides cause more problems than solving them. Because they spout out illogical information, which people tout as " real " and then people try to find ways to explain why they are real, and why even though illogical, are the truth.

You could pretty much say that about the manga too, yet for whatever reason I don't usually see people regard it as such.

This is why I basically don't think Daizenshuu 7 got it somewhat right on these two.

I too do think Akira Toriyama got a lot of stuff wrong on the manga, yet I don't regard them as illogical cause I don't have the authority to do so.

[dbgtFO]

Ki control is a mental game, and Vegeta had been awake for a straight week before his nap. The nap itself didn't give him a power boost, it gave his mind getting a chance to rest and focus.

In this instance I'll agree with Rocketman, as Vegeta did nothing other, than training his ki abilities, which meant he had to stay awake in those few days.

Him getting a power up after taking a nap, just shows, that his body really needed, to rest a little, before being thrown into battle again.
If he had slept for more, than those 15 - 30 minutes, he slept, then maybe he could have been an even better challenge for Freeza.

[p123]

Imagine how powerful Vegeta would have been if he slept for a whole week. He might have been able to combat 100% Freeza in base!

[Rocketman]

Imagine how powerful Vegeta would have been if he slept for a whole week. He might have been able to combat 100% Freeza in base!

Napping did not raise his power level. It just cleared his mind and allowed him to use what he had.

Stay awake for a week and I doubt you could even tie your shoes.