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[Senzu_Bean]

All excuses for Gohan not ascend into Super Saiyan 2 are absolutely bull. There is none that can justify why he didn't go SSJ2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I still think he was a Super Saiyan. Sure, it makes sense for him to be beyond that, but the Bobbidi ship saga is so dumb I don't think it matters. I do, however, understand those who believe he was a Super Saiyan 2 there.

[Rocketman]

All excuses for Gohan not ascend into Super Saiyan 2 are absolutely bull. There is none that can justify why he didn't go SSJ2.

He had to stand still and charge his power for so long the crowd was getting restless to transform at the Tournament. Neither Dabura nor Buu gave him that much of a window.

[Savage68]

He had to stand still and charge his power for so long the crowd was getting restless to transform at the Tournament.

No he didn't. He had to hold a conversation with Kibito at the tournament, causing the crowd to grow restless. When he actually decided what he was gonna do, the transformation didn't consume any significant amount of time. Arguing the contrary makes about as much sense as using Goku's first SSJ3 transformation as the standard "required time" for him to turn SSJ3. There is no math to be done here. Gohan had all the time in the world to transform both during his match with Dabura and when faced with the prospect of a rematch. Or when he was just standing around, crapping his pants with Kaioshin after Buu proved himself to be a threat. But he didn't. Just go with the explanation of Gohan being retarded here, because that's the only way to justify him opting not to use such an easily accessible transformation.

[cpd12589]

At some point the Daizenshuu states that Gohan fought against Dabura in his SSJ2 form. However, it seems like the Daizenshuu contradicts itself in a later point.

The major issue is that there is no lightning spark thing coming from Gohan as expected from a SSJ2.


I believe it's possible for Gohan being a SSJ2.

If we look at Cell after he return, it's clear that the lightning are related to his power. Also Vegetto displayed that in his SSJ power.

And since Gohan is the weakest SSJ2 seen, that would be the reason he don't have the lightning effect all time.


I was looking at the manga, and I believe I found a difference beetween Gohan SSJ and SSJ2 hair.

First of all, look at his base form. Gohan has a small fringe, and Toriyama not forget to draw it even after the battle with Dabura

Now look as his SSJ form, he still has it

However Gohan display his transformation to Kibito, the fringe is gone as he fully transforms in SSJ2.

Of course if we go by this, it would also mean Gohan after this points always turned SSJ2

Interesting, the fringe also appear to disappear when Gohan transforms in "ultimate warrior"


Toriyama also forget to draw it a few panels here and there, and it changes the side all time, but it's easy to notice whenever that happen.

I also noticed that hair thing about Gohan and believe he was SSJ2 against Dabura. But there's always going to be 2 sides to this issue even if AT himself said he was one or the other.

[hleV]

I also noticed that hair thing about Gohan and believe he was SSJ2 against Dabura. But there's always going to be 2 sides to this issue even if AT himself said he was one or the other.

Oh come fucking on. Gohan went SSJ1 in the tournament when Videl was beat up, and he only had 1 forehead bang. This argument is old 'n' wrong. I'm pretty sure I brought it a long time ago.
If Toriyama ever stated anything about DB, it's true unless it contradicts the later statements and we would care less if people were denying it.

Your points are invalid, bro.

[Senzu_Bean]

He probably isn't referring to the forehead bang. After all even Gohan's hair is different in both stages and I'm not talking about the forehead bang.

Still most of the fight is poorly draw with very few, if not any closeups and most of the time the hair, like pretty much everything, is draw very simply.

[dbgtFO]

He probably isn't referring to the forehead bang.

cpd12589 most certainly was, since he quoted Fox666's entire post, where all he talks about is the forehead bang.

After all even Gohan's hair is different in both stages and I'm not talking about the forehead bang.

That is true, there is a difference at the back of his hair or something like that, SSJ 2 at the tournament was more spikier, than his SSJ, during Videl's fight.

Still most of the fight is poorly draw with very few, if not any closeups and most of the time the hair, like pretty much everything, is draw very simply.

True, as I said in that other thread, AT should have given us the FULL fight!

[cpd12589]

Hey I'm not saying Gohan was one or the other just that it's a very controversial topic. I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on that. There definitely is good reasons to believe he is SSJ1 and good reasons to believe he's a SSJ2 at that time IMO. It's definitely not a clear cut thing to me.

[p123]

What Kaboom brought up earlier is a major issue. The need for new forms to be trained. We know Gohan didn't train. So rage should be needed for Gohan to transform to SSJ2 is probably ok by most people.


It's more about how he transforms against Kibito that people start seeing the major flaws.

IMO, Gohan used a delayed rage catalyst to transform into SSJ2. We can see Gohan's quasi SSJ state prior to the transformation, not to mention Gohan's face,eyes,expression show signs of anger, plus the added GRRRRR added to the moment prior to transforming.


All the signs point to Gohan being angry when he transformed into SSJ2 against Kibito. That doesn't seem to be a problem either.


The real problem is if Gohan needed anger to transform and did use anger to transform against Kibito, then why the hell couldn't he get angry against Dabura/Fat Buu? Couple that with Goku's comment on Cell and Dabura and now you have a clusterfack.


But if you can just think that Gohan somehow saved his anger up from the Videl beatdown, and was angry about getting kicked out of school that can help. Still, if he could save anger like prior, why not when it mattered? In real life this is totally possible as well. Someone is hurting your mother, your mother makes a full recovery you feel better, but later you are forced to fight the attacker, surely your rage will come out on the attacker of your mother. The only difference here is that Videl's attacker wasn't his opponent, but it's possible his presence there could still push Gohan to show off his power or any other number of reasons. It's not all that crazy if you think about it. Not to mention that Gohan has used a delayed rage catalyst as well to initially transform into SSJ for the first time in the Rosat.


It's true, it's a sucky situation, but hey it is what it is.

[Savage68]

IMO, Gohan used a delayed rage catalyst to transform into SSJ2. We can see Gohan's quasi SSJ state prior to the transformation, not to mention Gohan's face,eyes,expression show signs of anger, plus the added GRRRRR added to the moment prior to transforming.

Look at his face the moment before he transforms; there's not a sweat drop or the slightest indication of strain. He was irritated before that, which is strongly implied to be because he really doesn't want to transform in front of the whole crowd and his friends. Absolutely nothing whatsoever even remotely implies that he was still mad about Videl; it's a complete fabrication. He's smiling and calm when giving her the bean, and also when rushing away to his fight. He begins worrying once his schoolmates recognize him, and then it gets worse as Kibito urges him to transform and Piccolo also gives him the go ahead.

[dbgtFO]

It's true, it's a sucky situation, but hey it is what it is.

I'll just go with my "Gohan was a SSJ 2, during the Battle Royal at the 25th TB, but was unable to use it probably, so he turned back to regular SSJ, while Dabra also lost some power as well" theory.

[p123]

Gohan clearly isn't happy when he is transforming. Look at the quasi SSJ state he has, which is very similar to when he raged out to SSJ while Videl was getting beaten down. Nothing suggests Gohan is happy at all. The reasons behind his rage can vary, school, videl, school/videl, could all play a part, but the point is, he certainly was using anger to transform.

[Savage68]

Gohan clearly isn't happy when he is transforming. Look at the quasi SSJ state he has, which is very similar to when he raged out to SSJ while Videl was getting beaten down.

Actually, this example is what pins the nail in your argument's coffin. He very obviously reached the height of his anger, and was only a regular Super Saiyan. He calms down after Videl's match is finished and finds himself in better spirits after she heals and is completely out of harm's way. Yeah, he harbored some anger toward someone (that someone being not-Kibito), and yeah, his rage prompted a SSJ transformation (that transformation being SSJ1), but to create a rule that says "passive anger" can be used as a catalyst is just silly. Gohan's transformations have never worked that way; he gains brief power boosts, not forms that are totally under his control.

The reasons behind his rage can vary, school, videl, school/videl, could all play a part, but the point is, he certainly was using anger to transform.

Nope. He looks like he's focusing, with his angry expression being retained from the previous panel where says something along the lines of "Damn it! If it has to be done... I can forget about going to school!" and looks notably irritated. That the actual transformation had anything at all to do with Videl or school is never once even remotely indicated. Most of the Saiyans have a sorta... "violent" demeanor about them when transforming, but that doesn't mean it's being used as a catalyst. It's correlation, not cause and effect.

[Rocketman]

I still say the problem is not rage or whatever. The problem is time. It took Gohan a while to charge up SS2, three pages (more if you include the pages/panels with other people talking), while Goku's transformation to SS3 took two pages, after which he apologizes for it taking so long.

[Savage68]

Goku later consumes all of one tiny panel's time to zip from his normal form to Super Saiyan 3.

[dbgtFO]

I still say the problem is not rage or whatever. The problem is time. It took Gohan a while to charge up SS2, three pages (more if you include the pages/panels with other people talking), while Goku's transformation to SS3 took two pages, after which he apologizes for it taking so long.

Dabra is probably like Pui Pui, who waited until the Saiyans had found out, who was going to fight.
Gohan would have had all the time in the world, if you ask me.
That's why I go with my ridiculous fanon theory from above.

[Rocketman]

Goku later consumes all of one tiny panel's time to zip from his normal form to Super Saiyan 3.

He shows Gohan SS3 on the Supreme Kai's World between the two, so he got more practice changing.

[p123]

and yeah, his rage prompted a SSJ transformation (that transformation being SSJ1), but to create a rule that says "passive anger" can be used as a catalyst is just silly. Gohan's transformations have never worked that way; he gains brief power boosts, not forms that are totally under his control.

The only problem is that is has been shown to work already. Go look at Goku directing Gohan to become a SSJ in the Rosat. Goku tells Gohan to get angry and to think of Freeza. This heavily suggested that a delayed rage catalyst, can be used to trigger the transformation into SSJ. So if it can work for SSJ, it's not all that crazy to think it could work for SSJ2.




And hey, if you guys agree that Dabura ~ SSJ Teen Gohan, and that Gohan only used SSJ2 against Cell/Kibito then I have no problem with what your reasoning behind that is. The main point is that issue is correct, not the who or the why. The who or the why is dependant on the viewer and the poster who can come up with the best logic. The most important issue is that we get the manga right. Which it feels a majority of people are doing. So the not enough time logic is just as good as mine, and honestly as long as we are on the same page of what actually happened, that is well good enough for me.

[dbgtFO]

Goku later consumes all of one tiny panel's time to zip from his normal form to Super Saiyan 3.

He shows Gohan SS3 on the Supreme Kai's World between the two, so he got more practice changing.

I totally forgot about that!
It's just weird, that it wasn't brought up as a plot point or something