How strong did the humans get?

[p123]

Ah so you agree with the Kaioken type properties influencning the Shin Kikoho. I like that as well...


I see no reason to intentionally nerf the humans though. They are shown to be capable of surpassing previous villains. Kuririn surpassed Raditz in the Nappa/Vegeta Saga, surpassed Vegeta ( Saiyan Saga ) on Namek, and surpased Kiwi/Dodoria/Zarbon Transformed/Reecome/Burter/Jeice all on Namek.

And it's possible Kuririn surpassed Ginyu on Namek as well. Add 4 years of training on top of that it really is not crazy to assume Kuririn surpassed 1st form Freeza now is it?

[Nazi Cola]

Your 1000 points theory is just as valid as my 7x increase theory.

Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho being a 2000x multiplier is just as ridicolous as how you think humans being in the low millions is ridicolous.

As ridiculous as it is, it sounds a lot more... sound... than Tenshinhan going from around 100,000 to stronger than Freeza in 4 years. I mean, that's just what I think, but yeah.

Tenshinhan [Saiyan battle]: 1,830
- Assuming he got the same boost Goku got from Kaio's: 36,600 (that's probably a lot lower than some people like to think)
- Multiply by amount from Saiyan training for Mecha Freeza: 267,912
- Then first year of 3-year gap: 1,961,115
- Second year: 14,355,367
- Third year: 105,081,293

Using that constant 7.32x increase he ends up being about 88% of Freeza's full power by the time the Androids arrive. That's truly insane in my opinion. That would mean all the Base Saiyans are in that area as well (a lot higher probably), and Piccolo would be... oh god. I just don't think that's the case.

Ah so you agree with the Kaioken type properties influencning the Shin Kikoho. I like that as well...


I see no reason to intentionally nerf the humans though. They are shown to be capable of surpassing previous villains. Kuririn surpassed Raditz in the Nappa/Vegeta Saga, surpassed Vegeta ( Saiyan Saga ) on Namek, and surpased Kiwi/Dodoria/Zarbon Transformed/Reecome/Burter/Jeice all on Namek.

And it's possible Kuririn surpassed Ginyu on Namek as well. Add 4 years of training on top of that it really is not crazy to assume Kuririn surpassed 1st form Freeza now is it?

Raditz was only 5.8x stronger; Vegeta was only 10x stronger; and the rest is due to Guru's magical ability to bring out his potential. Freeza was a full 1,600x stronger going by the official levels.

[Kaboom]

I see no reason to intentionally nerf the humans though.

Oh, make no mistake. I'm not trying to "nerf" them because I don't like them or something. Kuririn's one of my favorite characters. But it's not wise to overestimate them either.

They are shown to be capable of surpassing previous villains. Kuririn surpassed Raditz in the Nappa/Vegeta Saga,

Barely, and Raditz was weak even for a low-class Saiyan.

surpassed Vegeta ( Saiyan Saga ) on Namek, and surpased Kiwi/Dodoria/Zarbon Transformed/Reecome/Burter/Jeice all on Namek.

Again, through the Grand Elder's power-up. Not by his own efforts. He was handed that power on a silver platter; it's not something he worked for himself.

And it's possible Kuririn surpassed Ginyu on Namek as well. Add 4 years of training on top of that it really is not crazy to assume Kuririn surpassed 1st form Freeza now is it?

To surpass Ginyu would require only gaining roughly 50,000 more "points." If some official source were to tell me he was that strong by the onset of the Androids arc, I'd believe it. It could be chalked up to a combination of his own training efforts AND the last bits of the Grand Elder's power-up taking effect.

But Freeza, even just in his first form, is a whole other story. Kuririn's not a Saiyan or a Warrior Namekian. He's just a normal human, and he's not miraculously closing that gap of hundreds of thousands of "points" just by training alone.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But Freeza, even just in his first form, is a whole other story. Kuririn's not a Saiyan or a Warrior Namekian. He's just a normal human, and he's not miraculously closing that gap of hundreds of thousands of "points" just by training alone.

Kuririn? No. Tenshinhan? Yes. Why? Because he can maximize the effectiveness of his training. All he has to do is split into multiple bodies, train, and then add up the bodies effort when he returns to normal after using his Kagebunshin no Juts...wait a minute...

[p123]

@ Nazi Cola

Dude what's up with your name? How do you keep it, it's highly offensive, I get shit for speaking my mind on issues meanwhile you parade around with an antisementic name like it's all good? Who's penis are you sucking? Lol.


But I don't agree with logical boost like that. I don't think AT sits there with a calculator trying to figure things out like that. I think it's all plot device...

Yamcha / Kuririn quit training and admit there nothing. Tien goes so far to turn down the Rosat and hell even has to go into hiding perhaps because of how weak he is. I can't see Tien having much more potential to gain after that.


Hell everyone is at their near limit by the Cell games.


Piccolo seems to be at his end, in the Buu Saga we get nothing new of his power, he probably still trained and gained some power, but nothing even worth mentioning.

Goku of all people admits he's at the end of his rope as well. Sure he trained and got stronger but he needed new forms to really get massively stronger. I doubt SSJ Goku from the Buu Saga is a ton stronger than SSJ Goku from the Cell games Saga. This would go for Gohan as well except perhaps the fact he has that hidden power which would still be relevant.

Vegeta has gotten a lot stronger, but it's more about him being behind that wall that Goku had met. Vegeta isn't all that different from SSJ Goku from the Cell games or the Buu Saga.

So if Goku/Piccolo/Vegeta/Gohan are all suggested to be their near limits as well as Yamcha/Kuririn quitting training, Tien logically should fall in line with that thought process as well.


Tien IMO turning down the Rosat and being part of the everyone is hitting their max time period would mean IMO that sure Tien trained and got stronger but I doubt Tien Buu Saga would be leaps and bounds above Tien Androids Saga..




@ Kaboom


If you think about it, looking at the saiyans , nameks, and humans, it's illogical for any type of major increases to ever occur. Kuririn logically should never be able to be on Raditz level. Vegeta should never be on Freeza's level and so on. Realistically the lives of the Z senshi would not change much from their powers dealing with Raditz. It's all a story concocted from there they should have lived and died with a power around were they started.


Vegeta for all the prince of saiyans surpassed my father at a young age super protege has a mere 18k to show for it. If he continuted to live his life in a normal manner I doubt he would be much higher than 24k at the end of Z if he lived how he was living.


Goku is just a low class saiyan, his power of 416 is a big accomplisment, and really is crap considering a weak low class saiyan can crush him easily.

Lol, it's like a dream that happened with these guys, they just got uber powerful to match their opponents, the author just made unrealistic reasons for them to be so strong, and only to continue with the story. It was a forced thing.


But if there was any sort of realism everyone should be as they were in the Raditz Saga, and that would be it. A saiyan reaching Freeza in his lifetime is so ridicolous its just a silly notion. Seeing as the progress that Goku/Vegeta made through life, they are perhaps generations upon generations behind Freeza.

It's just that the power increases were forced to be put into hyperdrive because AT continously made more and more powerful opponents to make things more and more exciting.

Which is why the Freeza Saga feels so different than the other sagas. If you would want to be realisitc take the Z Senshi from the Raditz Saga, and throw them in the world of the Freeza Saga, with Raditz/Nappa/Vegeta's power as it was when they were villians, and now your talking about a realistic world.

At the end of the day it was all a dream, and Goku was utterly crushed by Raditz might who a mere peon in the spectrum of the universe.


Lol, really went too far with that one huh?

[uzuni]

I'd say every character hit his limit at around the Cell Games. So, I doubt even Tenshinhan got THAT much stronger during the Boo Arc. These are the BP's I have for them:

Tenshinhan: 300,000
Kuririn: 250,000
Yamcha: 200,000
Chaozu: He maxed out after Kaio's training, and I'll put him around 10,000.

Boo Arc

Tenshinhan: 500,000 (continued to train, however didn't increase as much as he used to, since he hit his limit)
Kuririn: 250,000 (whipped back into shape for the tournament to the power he had 7 years ago)
Yamcha: 150,000 (slacked off, to our knowledge)
Chaozu: 15,000 (Training with Tenshinhan proved beneficial, however, like him, he also hit his limit long ago)

[p123]

I feel that you are heavily influenced by 1st form Freeza's power when creating this list. I don't believe AT ever showed any respect to his once great villians, he generally creates them to be so big and bad, and then are trash by the next friggen chapter. It's like how the media deals with celebrites, build them up so high, just to tear them down. I doubt AT ever cared about who he had people surpass. Obviously Freeza's full power would come into question , but anything less than that is fair game I would think. Within reason of course.

[uzuni]

I feel that you are heavily influenced by 1st form Freeza's power when creating this list. I don't believe AT ever showed any respect to his once great villians, he generally creates them to be so big and bad, and then are trash by the next friggen chapter. It's like how the media deals with celebrites, build them up so high, just to tear them down. I doubt AT ever cared about who he had people surpass. Obviously Freeza's full power would come into question , but anything less than that is fair game I would think. Within reason of course.

I dunno, I suppose I have a hard time believing that they, as mere humans, could surpass the likes of the Ginyu Force, let alone Freeza, former ruler of the universe. I guess that's the approach I take.

[Nazi Cola]

@ Nazi Cola

Dude what's up with your name? How do you keep it, it's highly offensive, I get shit for speaking my mind on issues meanwhile you parade around with an antisementic name like it's all good? Who's penis are you sucking? Lol.

No need for insults, dude. I tried changing it but I got no response, so calm down.

But I don't agree with logical boost like that. I don't think AT sits there with a calculator trying to figure things out like that. I think it's all plot device...

Yamcha / Kuririn quit training and admit there nothing. Tenshinhan goes so far to turn down the Rosat and hell even has to go into hiding perhaps because of how weak he is. I can't see Tenshinhan having much more potential to gain after that.


Hell everyone is at their near limit by the Cell games.


Piccolo seems to be at his end, in the Buu Saga we get nothing new of his power, he probably still trained and gained some power, but nothing even worth mentioning.

Goku of all people admits he's at the end of his rope as well. Sure he trained and got stronger but he needed new forms to really get massively stronger. I doubt SSJ Goku from the Buu Saga is a ton stronger than SSJ Goku from the Cell games Saga. This would go for Gohan as well except perhaps the fact he has that hidden power which would still be relevant.

Vegeta has gotten a lot stronger, but it's more about him being behind that wall that Goku had met. Vegeta isn't all that different from SSJ Goku from the Cell games or the Buu Saga.

So if Goku/Piccolo/Vegeta/Gohan are all suggested to be their near limits as well as Yamcha/Kuririn quitting training, Tenshinhan logically should fall in line with that thought process as well.


Tenshinhan IMO turning down the Rosat and being part of the everyone is hitting their max time period would mean IMO that sure Tenshinhan trained and got stronger but I doubt Tenshinhan Buu Saga would be leaps and bounds above Tenshinhan Androids Saga..

Well, then, everything is plot. Let's just end with that, eh?

[Bussani]

I think that increases in strength depend on the method of training, not merely the time you put in. Like Kaboom said, just because you get a x7 increase one year doesn't mean that you'll get the same increase for doing the same thing for another year. Characters outgrow training and they outgrow masters; the big increases always come from incredible new training, new masters and transformations.

To use an example, didn't Goku get something like 10 times stronger from his training with Master Roshi for the 21st tenkaichi budokai? I think it's pretty safe to say that if Goku went back and did that training again to prepare for the arrival of the Androids, the gain wouldn't be as great, if there was any gain at all.

Even if we take the fact that Tenshinhan trained with Kaio longer than Goku into account, and even if we then have him progress even faster than Goku did (since he asked for tougher training than Goku had, or whatever), then that still only puts him mid-Ginyu Force level. You'd have to be pretty generous about his progress from there for him to break 1,000,000 in the next 4 years. Is it possible? Well, I guess anything is in Dragon Ball. But it's faster progress than anyone's ever made without some kind of divine help or ridiculous gravity, and considering the above, more than I'd expect at his now-high level.

[uzuni]

Did any of the humans train in the room of spirit and time? For some reason, I can't recall...

[Bussani]

Did any of the humans train in the room of spirit and time? For some reason, I can't recall...

No--not in the Cell saga and not that we're ever told, anyway. Tenshinhan turns down a turn in the room, apologizing and telling them that he'd never be a match for "that" (i.e. Cell).

[uzuni]

Oh, jeeze, then I suppose all of them neared their limit at the end of the Freeza saga...pretty pathetic if you ask me...

[Titan]

I'm just going to quote myself in here of a post I made on a thread similar to this:

- Dr. Gero (or was it #19?) mistook Yamcha for Goku. As we know Dr. Gero calculated Goku, and everybody, increases in those years but only when Goku turned Super Saiyan Dr. Gero admitted his power exceeded those of his calculations. What this does tell us? Goku's base power was within Dr. Gero's calculations and thus the increase Goku had in Namek was everything but abnormal. This ties up perfectly with Krillin assumption, that near death power-ups is the reason why Goku have always been one step ahead of the Earthlings.

- Tenshinhan, and to a less extent Krillin, is astonished how the Super Saiyans and Piccolo far outclassed him but in no instance comment how far outclassed he is by the Saiyans, if he is supposed to be 100,000 and Goku 5,000,000. Adding to it Krillin comments how it sucks not being a Super Saiyan and Tenshinhan, three years before, admits how Goku is now indeed superior to him but only after him achieved Super Saiyan. What these do tell us? The power base Saiyans attain isn't out of realm for the Earthlings to attain, contrary to Super Saiyan power.

- "I didn't let Chaotzu come. To be honest, he isn't strong enough." Tenshinhan informs Goku why Chaotzu isn't among them. Going by this sentence at least Tenshinhan has to be at a level of power that he considers strong enough to help and 100,000 isn't helpful in this situation. Looking at the fight against Freeza someone less than 100,000 is helpful against an half million opponent but useless against someone over 1,000,000. Considering everybody knew the Artificial Humans are supposed stronger than Freeza, going into the battle with a level of 100,000 claiming himself useful is ridiculous.

- Goku and Piccolo considered Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc. useful against the Artificial Humans. If the Earthlings are defenseless against the Artificial Humans Goku would advise them to retreat just like he did to Krillin when facing Babidi, Dabura, etc.

- Last but not least Tenshinhan hold freaking Cell with Shin Kikoho, when this same move (according to the Daizenshuu the Shin Kikoho is equal to regular Kikoho, except it continuously fires the kiai-type Kihoho) didn't even fazed Nappa and only wrecked his armour.

As for my personal opinion the fight in movie 9 between Trunks & Tenshinhan is actually a decent measurement of Tenshinhan power in that period of time. Although I would only make Trunks turn Super Saiyan cause of Shin Kikoho not because of Tenshinhan powering-up.

I like to think Chaotzu is comparable to Krillin by the time of the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, like he was back at the 22nd TB.

And Tenshinhan is the only guy on the story capable of train with three guys equals to him.

Seconded.

And how the hell is Android arc Kuririn only breaching 100,000? The increases him and Son Gohan both made on Namek were fucking ridiculous. Did that power-up just coincidently stop for the convenience of the people who don't think the humans could make it past Captain Ginyu? Thats bullshit to say the least.

Thirded.

I agree with Senzu_Bean. Go ahead, call me nuts, I don't care. In the context of the story Senzu_Bean's explanation makes the most sense.

Don't worry,you are not nuts.

Surpassed 1 million no doubt about it.

Obviously!

[SonEric84]

"Nazi Cola" is offensive? So does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to use the term "grammar nazi" either? Come on now.

Anyway, I've always liked to think the humans kept improving and were at least able to keep up somewhat. I won't get into trying to guess numbers, but I don't think they stopped improving after the android/cell arc.

[lash]

Yes it is a reach. Because he's no longer getting miracle-boosts from fat old Namekians. He's just training. There is no longer anything special about his power growth; no more "plot device" to grant him that much strength. He's back to doing "the best training Earth has to offer" which, if he group-trains like before, is going to MAYBE still grant him about 1000 "points" per year.

So how's he reaching "over a million" that way?

I'd like to think he's still being influenced by that powerup even during the 3-4 year period. Gohan too. It's not like the continuous powerup would just magically stop after Vegeta mentioned it.
That's a sound theory for Krillin ever getting in the millions at least.


Anyway, it's clear Toriyama didn't give a crap about increases.

Since the "humans" are irrelevant to the plot after the Freeza arc...they can anywhere from the five figure range to the low millions. Simply out of favor...I'd place Tenshinhan(having weird alien ancestry can account for bigger training gains, and the Shin kikoho which i wouldn't see as EVER being higher than 200x his battle power) and Krillin(using what I explained earlier) in the low million mark. Chaozu and Yamcha can be 35K for all I care. Even though it's clear the author doesn't care about increases...there just isn't a good in-universe explanation why they would get insane training gains similar to Krillin's and Tenshinhan's explanations by just doing just normal earth training methods.

[Kaboom]

@ Nazi Cola
Dude what's up with your name? How do you keep it, it's highly offensive, I get shit for speaking my mind on issues meanwhile you parade around with an antisemitic name like it's all good? Who's penis are you sucking? Lol.

... What?

[Piccolo Daimao]

We really have nothing to go on about how strong the Earthlings got post-Freeza arc. I would assume that Kuririn's stronger than Tenshinhan up until the Boo arc, since he's still a step ahead of him having had his hidden power awakened by the Great Elder. Plus, Yamcha's statement about Kuririn being the strongest Earthling, and the only thing he'd have to go by is they last fought at the Cell Games, since no-one knows where Tenshinhan is or what he's doing, nor does Yamcha know if Kuririn's been consistently training or not.

As for where they stand in terms of battle power...I'd make a guess and say below Freeza's first form. Like I said, we really have nothing to go on. They still can't do shit to the Androids, Cell or Boo, apart from Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-Ho, which held him back, but didn't seem to do considerable damage to him.

[Fox666]

Cell saga

Yamcha: 4,000,000
Kuririn: 5,000,000
Tenshinhan: 20,000,000
Chaos: 2,000,000
Yajirone: 3,000,000

Majin Buu saga

Yamcha: 800,000,000
Kuririn: 1,000,000,000
Tenshinhan: 5,000,000,000
Chaos: 500,000,000
Yajirobe: 700,000,000



We can put the character anywhere, since they don't have any important hole. But I don't see a good reason to assume that Kuririn is any stronger than he was against Ginyu Force or Freeza.

And I find very weird to assume that Kuririn has "X hundred of thousands" or anything of that sort. That sort of reminds of this post of Herms.

[Rocketman]

I'd place Tenshinhan(having weird alien ancestry can account for bigger training gains

Nothing says Tien's alien ancestry is as good as Saiyan or Warrior Namek blood.