Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[p123]

If AT wanted to show us that Mssj was a 50x boost, he would have... He continuously shows us that Mssj is not a huge boost. People just seem to have trouble picking this up.

[hleV]

It's not that I want them to be compatible in some easy way with BPs, I just don't want Goku's real Super Saiyan strength coming out as 50,000 vs. Gohan's >4,000 or 3,000 being 50x stronger than 800.

Dabra may very well be ten times stronger than 3,000. He was really confident, after all. And since Dabra didn't do too good against Gohan, Gohan may very well be like 25,000.
You people tend to make multipliers as small as possible.

[p123]

Well they are suggested to be... AT could have easily made the weights 50x stronger, but he chose to only make them 5x stronger, then the killi system suggests a small gap, and Base Saiyans > Piccolo would only be possible if the MSSJ boost was small. Not to mention TOEI definitely seems to imply they are onboard with a smaller boost for MSSJ, that is of course unless you think Pikkon removing his weights was a 50x boost ...

Also, Base Gohan M10 ~ MSSJ Goku M8, unless you think LSSJ Broly M10 is 50-100x stronger than MSSJ Goku, MSSJ boost is very small...

[Dabooyaka]

Well they are suggested to be... AT could have easily made the weights 50x stronger, but he chose to only make them 5x stronger, then the killi system suggests a small gap, and Base Saiyans > Piccolo would only be possible if the MSSJ boost was small. Not to mention TOEI definitely seems to imply they are onboard with a smaller boost for MSSJ, that is of course unless you think Paikuhan removing his weights was a 50x boost ...

Also, Base Gohan M10 ~ MSSJ Goku M8, unless you think LSSJ Broly M10 is 50-100x stronger than MSSJ Goku, MSSJ boost is very small...

base saiyans piccolo?? base Gohan=mssj Goku?? HAHA\ wow, now thats some funny stuff.

[hleV]

TOEI definitely seems to imply

Sorry, I don't care. Neither should anyone else, IMHO.

[beast mode]

It's not that I want them to be compatible in some easy way with BPs, I just don't want Goku's real Super Saiyan strength coming out as 50,000 vs. Gohan's >4,000 or 3,000 being 50x stronger than 800.

Dabra may very well be ten times stronger than 3,000. He was really confident, after all. And since Dabra didn't do too good against Gohan, Gohan may very well be like 25,000.
You people tend to make multipliers as small as possible.

He says that 4,000 isn't enough to beat him, if 5,000 couldn't then you'd think he'd mention that instead of 4,000.

Also, we don't know for sure if someone's strength is being multiplied by something when they become Super Saiyan like Kaio-ken.

[dbgtFO]

TOEI definitely seems to imply

Sorry, I don't care. Neither should anyone else, IMHO.

I don't care either.
When talking about the Piccolo < regular Saiyans topic I only base my arguments on the manga.

He says that 4,000 isn't enough to beat him, if 5,000 couldn't then you'd think he'd mention that instead of 4,000.

Isn't it obvious that hleV is basing it on the manga, instead of the anime only line?

Also, we don't know for sure if someone's strength is being multiplied by something when they become Super Saiyan like Kaio-ken.

We do, Daizenshuu 7 and SEG confirms that much.

[beast mode]

Also, we don't know for sure if someone's strength is being multiplied by something when they become Super Saiyan like Kaio-ken.

We do, Daizenshuu 7 and SEG confirms that much.

"like Kaio-ken" was the important part of that statement. Goku was indeed 50 times stronger when he became a Super Saiyan.

Kaio-ken x10: User becomes ten times as strong for the duration of the technique.
Super Saiyan (if it works mechanically similar to Kaio-ken, No. 20 (at least in the anime) says that it doesn't): User becomes fifty times as strong for the duration of the technique.

Super Saiyan (my own suspicions):

Saiyan = a
Difference between Saiyan's strength and Super Saiyan (minimum)'s strength = b
Super Saiyan (minimum) = c

a + b = c (first time Super Saiyan transformation), c = 150,000,000 BP

in Goku's case: 3,000,000 BP + 147,000,000 BP = 150,000,000 BP < after training for 3 years

note: When accessing some indeterminable point of their strength as a Super Saiyan, they gain the 'Super Saiyan' appearance.

[hleV]

Kaio-ken x multiplies power by x.
Super Saiyan multiplier power by 50.

What's your point?

[beast mode]

Kaio-ken x multiplies power by x.
Super Saiyan multiplier power by 50.

What's your point?

Maybe you should have read my post.

[hleV]

I've posted after reading your post. It's been stated that Super Saiyan multiplies user's power/strength/whatever 50 times. I'm asking what your point is because I don't unerstand what are you talking about.

[beast mode]

I've posted after reading your post. It's been stated that Super Saiyan multiplies user's power/strength/whatever 50 times. I'm asking what your point is because I don't unerstand what are you talking about.

That's all based on the evidence that Goku became 50 times stronger. Goku could've just had 49 times his strength added, or if he were five times more powerful at the time of transforming, 45 times his strength. Check out the Gohan's strength thread, it wouldn't make sense for it to be a 50 times multiplication because of who Dabra chooses out of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, and Krillin.

[Kaboom]

Dabra also expected that PuiPui and Yakon would be enough to take out those three "strongest." He is not a reliable judge of power, if you ask me.

[beast mode]

Dabra also expected that PuiPui and Yakon would be enough to take out those three "strongest." He is not a reliable judge of power, if you ask me.

He couldn't judge the amount of power they possessed (Goku is stronger than the newly free Majin Buu, remember) but he could sense the relationship between them. Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > Piccolo > Krillin. Unless he was just lucky and guessed those three correctly.

[dbgtFO]

So you think that Super Saiyan is basically your true power and that base is a suppression or something?
So when Dabra and Babidi chose the Saiyans you say that they felt this:
Krillin & Piccolo < Super Saiyans?

And that SSJ doesn't amplify ki like Kaio-ken, but that it does something entirely different like bringing out your true power?

If not, please explain it properly, because I'm still confused about why a 50 times multiplier makes no sense in the Dabra sensing Piccolo and Babidi scenario...

[beast mode]

So you think that Super Saiyan is basically your true power and that base is a suppression or something?
So when Dabra and Babidi chose the Saiyans you say that they felt this:
Krillin & Piccolo < Super Saiyans?

And that SSJ doesn't amplify ki like Kaio-ken, but that it does something entirely different like bringing out your true power?

If not, please explain it properly, because I'm still confused about why a 50 times multiplier makes no sense in the Dabra sensing Piccolo and Babidi scenario...

That's exactly what I'm saying. Dabra can sense that the Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo. So if it's a multiplier, like Kaio-ken, then Piccolo's gotta be weaker than "Base" Gohan (definitely false.)

[dbgtFO]

Okay, I had a similar theory, when we had a big "base Saiyans vs. Piccolo" topic last year...

Obviously Dabra and Babidi sensed something below the surface, since everyone was suppressed, so if you can make it work, then good for you (I for one couldn't)...

[Fox666]

Well, Majin Boo saga is quite confusing when it comes to power

I would say that, if you asked Toriyama, he would tell you that Piccolo is still stronger than the base saiyans. This seems to be what he had in mind, considering he was the dominant being inside Majin Boo after Gotenks fusion timed out. This is the closest thing to a "power ranking" around the plot devices of Boo saga.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

I don't know exactly what to say. There seems to be a lot of wrong things alonge these lines:
- they are supressing their power
- why is Piccolo being underrated
- and talking about Piccolo, why he didn't listened to Babidi and Dabura conversation?

I can only think of two possibilities:

1. Somehow they knew about the Super Saiyan form they could achieve

2. Energy =/= power

If you look at the part I bolded, Babidi believes their energy is enough to revive Majin Boo. But didn't he believed that Pui-pui, and later Yakon, could take all of them alone?

So it doesn't make sense for the sum of the 3 powers being enough to revive Majin Boo. At least one backup evidence is that they "can't use" Kaioshin and Kibito energies

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P2.5
Context: after Babidi fills Boo’s ball with Gohan’s energy, and the meter becomes almost half full
Dabra: “It will be alright. If we gather energy from the 3 on Stage 1 now, I think we’ll become close to full. If things go well, Majin Boo may be revived within the day.”

Again, Babidi mention that their energy is enough to revive Majin Boo. However at this moment they are only at level 1 preparing to fight Puipui

Of course I am aware that on the other hand, the Kiri meter and the energy taken from SSJ2 Gohan suggests the opposite

[Kaboom]

Thing is, they were all purposely suppressing themselves and hiding their Ki. So either Dabra's got something special going on like magic mind-reading to tell who's strongest, or he has no actual idea because he can't sense their Ki at all, only that they're there.

[beast mode]

Thing is, they were all purposely suppressing themselves and hiding their Ki. So either Dabra's got something special going on like magic mind-reading to tell who's strongest, or he has no actual idea because he can't sense their Ki at all, only that they're there.

What are the odds of him picking the 3 most powerful out of 5 at random?