Piccolo vs Semi Perfect Cell

[Nazi Cola]

The Cell kids were a match for Vegeta and Trunks, who were above 50% MSSj Goku, who was above SSjG3 Trunks, who was above Perfect Cell [initial]. Piccolo and Goku both knew/agreed that Piccolo was no match for Cell as he was then, didn't they? That should speak volumes, right?

[Michsi]

The Cell kids were a match for Vegeta and Trunks,

I remember Vegeta saying right form the start the Cell Jr. "were too strong" so no I don't think they were a match

Piccolo and Goku both knew/agreed that Piccolo was no match for Cell as he was then, didn't they? That should speak volumes, right?

Yes Piccolo was no match, but neither were Vegeta and Trunks obviously. How does this relate to the situation of the Cell Jr.s as a comparison factor?
Perfect Cell is in a completely different league.

I place Cell Jr. well above Semi Perfect Cell, but also a good deal below Perfect Cell.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The Cell kids were a match for Vegeta and Trunks, who were above 50% MSSj Goku, who was above SSjG3 Trunks, who was above Perfect Cell [initial]. Piccolo and Goku both knew/agreed that Piccolo was no match for Cell as he was then, didn't they? That should speak volumes, right?

Not in my opinion, Piccolo still stands equal with Trunks and Vegeta. I stiil stand by the theory that Piccolo entered the RoSaT a second time and returned to his equal footing with the Royal Saiyans. I mean, even after Goku and Cell kicked the shit out of each other and lost all that energy, Cell still said that the Earth was doomed since no one else stood a chance against him. I see no reason for Piccolo being considered as no match for Cell after his first trip in the RoSaT to mean anything, as Goku didn't have confidence in anyone but Gohan. Even Vegeta and Trunks, after training a second time for the Cell Games, were said to be useless against the fatigued Cell that Goku just fought.

Kinda ninja'd.

[Fox666]

Cell said, and I quote, "only Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own." Despite Piccolo being shown on his feet, he clearly wasn't "holding his own" due to that statement. He was getting his butt kicked.

Herms has already said that the way it is phrased in Japanese suggests that Vegeta and Trunks may just be the first of Cell's examples of who are holding their own against his kids. Piccolo can be included in the statement without any problem in the official version.

Actually that's not the only line which Cell refer to Vegeta and Trunks

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P13.5
Context: after Goku says there’s other people to fight besides him
Cell: “It’s the same thing. Vegeta and Trunks may have raised their power, but they should still be inferior to you…”

So yeah, it seems like that Cell was in fact referring only to Vegeta and Trunks when he used "ya"

I remember Vegeta saying right form the start the Cell Jr. "were too strong"

And you are right about that

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P6.5
Vegeta: “Wh-what strength…! A bunch of little squirts like this [is doing this] to me…”

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell: “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or [ya] Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”

Note that Cell says that Vegeta and Trunks are "barely fighting evenly", thus it seems like the Cell Juniors still had a slight upper hand over Vegeta and Trunks.

[Michsi]

So yeah, it seems like that Cell was in fact referring only to Vegeta and Trunks when he used "ya"

Well, I am in no way an expert in japanese and my knowlede can't even be considered modest yet but :Connectors to and ya -
These work like "and" in English. Use to to include only what is actually mentioned, and ya to include other things which are not mentioned but may be relevant or supposed.


And this was a line was said specifically for the Cell vs. the others fight.

I'm not denying that Trunks and Vegeta are stronger than Piccolo, so I think it's logical that he would mind them more than the others but it still doesn't say anything about the actual fight against Cell Jrs.

Note that Cell says that Vegeta and Trunks are "barely fighting evenly", thus it seems like the Cell Juniors still had a slight upper hand over Vegeta and Trunks

It seemed to me that they were clearly on the losing side since they were getting wounded and the Cell Jrs. didn't even seem that serious. It was only a matter of time until they would have gotten killed, if you ask me.

[Fox666]

I am not expert in japanese either, but as far I know "ya" don't necessarily include something else.

[Michsi]

It's one of the first things that I know about this particle and I think even wrote down in my recent test. If not, one less point for me....

[SuperForteX]

It's amazing how we Dragon Ball fans will mince one little word in a translation, seeking a 100% literal translation because the subtle meaning of the phrase may suggest x character is stronger than y character. I guess it's just the nature of the beast. We Dragon Ball fans love versus topics!

[Michsi]

It's amazing how we Dragon Ball fans will mince one little word in a translation, seeking a 100% literal translation because the subtle meaning of the phrase may suggest x character is stronger than y character. I guess it's just the nature of the beast. We Dragon Ball fans love versus topics!

So? If it's important and can actually help support a person's argument if necesarry, why shouldn't it be mentioned? Many changed their oppinion once it was proven that something was translated wrong and their argument was based on THAT wrong translation.

This "ya" business was mostly just fooling around, at least on my part but it is tied to the topic and for some quite relevant.

I'm not too fond of versus threads myself but you know, DB IS a battle based story.

[SuperForteX]

Please don't get the wrong idea! I'm by no means scoffing at this mincing of words. I genuinely do find it fascinating, and I fully understand and agree with why it happens.

It just goes to show that true Dragon Ball mastery is a long way from being achieved by anyone at this board. There are those who claim such mastery by simply dismissing 'versus topics' and 'strength discussions' because without an expert knowledge of Japanese to pick up on these 'subtle meanings', they simply can't determine the answers for themselves.

There may exist Dragon Ball Mastery (from here on out it will be captialized) in the forseeable future. There was once a time when the Fandom Community would have considered the current era we live in, with people like Herms providing an abundance of translated information to us, an utter fantasy.

Who knows what the future holds? I for one can't wait.

[Nazi Cola]

In simple terms, this is what I meant:

- Initial Perfect Cell is formed, squashing SSjG2 Vegeta.
- Trunks transforms to Super Saiyan Grade 3. He is stated to "far surpass" Cell at this point.
- After the RoSaT, Goku goes to "about half" of his full power in front of Karin, which shocks everybody, including Trunks. From this, I see Toriyama implying Goku had surpassed all known power at this point.
- Vegeta goes into the RoSaT again. When the Cell Games are at hand, he's confident he'll win. I see him comfortably above 50% MSSj Goku from this.
- Piccolo uses the RoSaT. He says he's still nothing to Cell and Goku agrees.
- The Cell kids basically match Vegeta and Trunks, although from Cell's statement we get that the Saiyans are on the losing end.

What I'm asking is: How can Piccolo be on Vegeta/Trunks' level, who were "barely" holding on against the Cell kids, if he's not even on Initial Perfect Cell's level? That's a big gap from what I got out of the manga.

[CatouttaHell]

In simple terms, this is what I meant:

- Initial Perfect Cell is formed, squashing SSjG2 Vegeta.
- Trunks transforms to Super Saiyan Grade 3. He is stated to "far surpass" Cell at this point.
- After the RoSaT, Goku goes to "about half" of his full power in front of Karin, which shocks everybody, including Trunks. From this, I see Toriyama implying Goku had surpassed all known power at this point.
- Vegeta goes into the RoSaT again. When the Cell Games are at hand, he's confident he'll win. I see him comfortably above 50% MSSj Goku from this.
- Piccolo uses the RoSaT. He says he's still nothing to Cell and Goku agrees.
- The Cell kids basically match Vegeta and Trunks, although from Cell's statement we get that the Saiyans are on the losing end.

What I'm asking is: How can Piccolo be on Vegeta/Trunks' level, who were "barely" holding on against the Cell kids, if he's not even on Initial Perfect Cell's level? That's a big gap from what I got out of the manga.

Very good points, I agree with all of this. Even Piccolo himself knew his power was inferior. There's also this manga quote:

Chapter: 374 (DBZ 180), P14.2
Piccolo: ”Cell’s power is abnormal…Frankly, no one can beat him. Of course, that’s just my opinion.”

Pre-RoSaT referring to Semi-Perfect Cell. Considering how insane he thought his power to be I'd say if he was close to Semi-Perfect Cell in power or even equal it'd be pretty damn good.

[Kirby456]

A year's training in the ROSAT would benefit him immensely, considering that he raised his power about a hundred-fold in the three years of training before the Androids, against the Cell kids he was still standing and Cell's statement in Japanese, according to Herms does not mean that Trunks and Vegeta were the only ones fighting back.

Post-ROSAT, I have Piccolo at the Suppressed Perfect Cell who beat USSJG2 Vegeta but weaker then the Suppressed Buff Cell who beat USSJG4 Trunks, but he was still a good amount weaker than Vegeta at the Cell Games, as Vegeta improved a lot from his own time in the ROSAT, also I'm pretty sure Piccolo was referring to the Suppressed Buff Perfect Cell who beat USSJ trunks or Perfect Cell 40 percent, that's how i see things, we all have our own personal opinions.

[Michsi]

Vegeta goes into the RoSaT again. When the Cell Games are at hand, he's confident he'll win

Quote?
And Vegeta being confident about winning doesn't really say much about the real situation.

Piccolo uses the RoSaT. He says he's still nothing to Cell and Goku agrees.

The same goes for the others, including Vegeta and Trunks. I mean at the very end, Vegeta admits he is nothing compared to them . The german version goes something like "Againts those guys I'm peanuts" . Those guys obviously referring to the big players , Cell, Goku and Gohan. That alone puts a huge gap of power between him and them by having him admit that.

I still say, the visual evidence is stonger here, I think.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

What I'm asking is: How can Piccolo be on Vegeta/Trunks' level, who were "barely" holding on against the Cell kids, if he's not even on Initial Perfect Cell's level? That's a big gap from what I got out of the manga.

Goku had exited the RoSaT with Gohan and was banking on Gohan to win after unleashing his rage. Goku himself believed that he couldn't beat Cell, after having just displayed an impressive ki at only 50% power, one that was hinted to surpass all known powers at that point, to use your own quote. So if Goku was comparing himself to what he thought Cell was capable of, then why wouldn't he compare Piccolo the same way?

Piccolo had heard Goku say he didn't think he could beat Cell and had sensed his display of power at Karin's by that point as well. So even if Piccolo hit about 45% of Goku's power, if he didn't at least match what was shown at Karin's after his (first) trip into the RoSaT, he should be considered no match for them. The manga conversation makes perfect sense to me following this ideal. I'd place them somewhere around these levels after 2 trips into the RoSaT, as rough estimates anyway:
Vegeta - 70% of Goku's power
Trunks - 65% of Goku's power
Piccolo -60% of Goku's power

[Nazi Cola]

Quote?
And Vegeta being confident about winning doesn't really say much about the real situation.

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first
Vegeta: “Do want you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

Vegeta knows how badly he got schooled before, and he felt Goku's power on the Lookout and was visibly pissed about it, but at the Cell Games he's calm and collected, as if Goku's power is no big deal anymore. Vegeta's cocky but there's a difference between cocky and stupid. I don't think he'd feel confident in winning against Cell if he wasn't at that level yet. Based on his quote, I think Vegeta had surpassed the strength Goku showed on the Lookout.

The same goes for the others, including Vegeta and Trunks. I mean at the very end, Vegeta admits he is nothing compared to them . The german version goes something like "Againts those guys I'm peanuts" . Those guys obviously referring to the big players , Cell, Goku and Gohan. That alone puts a huge gap of power between him and them by having him admit that.

I still say, the visual evidence is stonger here, I think.

That was after Goku and Cell's "warm-up," wasn't it? When Goku went 100% and Cell powered up. In that case, yeah, those two and Gohan had far surpassed everybody. The Cell that Vegeta fought was what Vegeta thought to be Cell's full power, if I'm processing the manga relatively correctly. He felt confident he could defeat that Cell, not thinking Cell could power up like he did.

That was Vegeta comparing himself to their full powers (except in the case of Cell, obviously).

Goku had exited the RoSaT with Gohan and was banking on Gohan to win after unleashing his rage. Goku himself believed that he couldn't beat Cell, after having just displayed an impressive ki at only 50% power, one that was hinted to surpass all known powers at that point, to use your own quote. So if Goku was comparing himself to what he thought Cell was capable of, then why wouldn't he compare Piccolo the same way?

Goku could have been comparing Piccolo to what he thought Cell might be capable of, but Piccolo was the one who brought it up first, and who's to say Piccolo also had the same mindset as Goku concerning Cell's hidden power?

Piccolo had heard Goku say he didn't think he could beat Cell

Really? I didn't think anybody but Gohan (and Yajirobe) heard Goku when he agreed with Karin. Did Goku say he couldn't beat Cell at another point later on?

and had sensed his display of power at Karin's by that point as well. So even if Piccolo hit about 45% of Goku's power, if he didn't at least match what was shown at Karin's after his (first) trip into the RoSaT, he should be considered no match for them. The manga conversation makes perfect sense to me following this ideal. I'd place them somewhere around these levels after 2 trips into the RoSaT, as rough estimates anyway:
Vegeta - 70% of Goku's power
Trunks - 65% of Goku's power
Piccolo -60% of Goku's power

Yeah, you could definitely have a point here. I just need some things clarified before I can accept this viewpoint.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Goku could have been comparing Piccolo to what he thought Cell might be capable of, but Piccolo was the one who brought it up first, and who's to say Piccolo also had the same mindset as Goku concerning Cell's hidden power?

I'm sure he didn't initially. Piccolo went into the RoSaT after Goku's display at Karin's and hearing Goku doesn't think he can win. I'm sure when he brought it up, he had to gauge Cell at being at least strong enough to defeat what Goku displayed, possibly stronger since Goku is a tricky bastard (Piccolo may also assume that the ki Goku was displaying wasn't his full power). He knows that from experience, since he's technically fought him twice. They may not have had the exact same idea, but I'd say a similar ballpark.

Really? I didn't think anybody but Gohan (and Yajirobe) heard Goku when he agreed with Karin. Did Goku say he couldn't beat Cell at another point later on?

No, before any of that. As soon as Goku exits the RoSaT, Vegeta asks if he thinks he can win, and Goku says he'll have to see Cell. After the Shunkan-ido to Cell and back, Goku states he probably can't win. He then flies down to Karin and displays about half his power, shocking everyone up on the lookout and then revealing he might have discovered a "secret" while in there. I'm sure everyone up there automatically assumes that if Goku says he doesn't think he can win with that much power, then Cell is likely much stronger than they originally thought, but their next guess may still not be right. Vegeta is a clear case of this, by stating that he'll be the one to finish Cell, he displays what is likely both an overestimation of himself and underestimation of Cell.

Edited for stupid typos (I'm probably still missing some too). -.-

[Nazi Cola]

That does put a kink in my view. Damn it all. I guess I've lost this debate, hah.

[jackjack]

I personally think OP's placement of Piccolo is fine. One little piece of evidence that I see no one has brought up in here is Trunks expressing some surprise when he heard Goku saying Piccolo couldn't do much against Cell. So, it seems at least Trunks thought Piccolo could probably compete with initial PC (whom Vegeta could beat). And of course, Goku kind of knew Cell's true strength would be much higher, which was the whole point of him going to Karin for an estimate.

Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”

[Nazi Cola]

I personally think OP's placement of Piccolo is fine. One little piece of evidence that I see no one has brought up in here is Trunks expressing some surprise when he heard Goku saying Piccolo couldn't do much against Cell. So, it seems at least Trunks thought Piccolo could probably compete with initial PC (whom Vegeta could beat). And of course, Goku kind of knew Cell's true strength would be much higher, which was the whole point of him going to Karin for an estimate.

Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”

Trunks was surprised? Do you have the panel or quote showing this?