Pronunciation of "Saiyan"

[Ashura]

Now that's a case where I actually wish they would have foregone consistency and just imported the Japanese title. Resident Evil is particularly unfitting for the series. "Resident" obviously applies exclusively to the first game, which takes place in a mansion.

I never get this train of thought; It means 'evil lives here,' which is to say, the protagonists go to places where evil lives... something they do in every single game. It doesn't just refer to the mansion incident or zombies in a house.

They couldn't actually use Biohazard here because a band had the title trademarked at the time.

Why are we talking about this?

We're discussing the merits of heavy localization and instances where old localization choices have become the norm due to heavily familiarity and recognizability, which is at the heart of this debate... know what I'm Saiyan?

[roidrage]

But when you talk about things that have been clearly altered from the source, then, yeah, it's wrong. It's no knock on your opinions or preferences. It's simply a statement of fact. There's really no reason to take it as a personal attack or a threat to your opinions. It just is.

It is particularly interesting that you specifically should call attention to this considering most of your posts in this thread have been a declaration of, "I know that I'm wrong (fact), but I don't care (opinion)." If you can so clearly extrapolate one from the other in terms of Goku's name, why are you ragging on Mike for basically making an opposite statement using the exact same concept?

Surprisingly enough, you and I don't differ in that regard. I come across as playing devil's advocate most of the time for the dub, but really I'm the first to call it out for the changes it makes to the series. I feel strongly about those. What drives me batshit crazy is that hardly any dub vs. sub conversation on this forum is about facts like those; it's just a bunch of snarky, smartass comments about the voice acting and music, which is entirely subjective.

To be truthful, thinking about it now, my motivation for saying, "I'm wrong, but I don't care" was to get people out of my face constantly shoving "Soun Gokuu" down my throat. It was my only means of cutting off the argument; even if I am wrong, I don't care, so stop wasting your time wagging your finger at me. But, looking at the posts of Rocketman and particucarly Cipher, it just now dawned on me, "Hey! Maybe I'm not so crazy after all. There are actually people who agree with me!" I thought it was another case of VegettoEX knowing everything and me just refusing to accept it at first, but know I now it's not that cut and dry at all. Therefore, I no longer believe I'm "wrong" on this, if I ever really did in the first place; like you said, there's different answers.

It's funny you should mention separating facts from opinions, because VegettoEX and the others never make any attempt to separate facts from opinions on their podcasts, from what I've heard. And that's understandable; it's his show, you hear it his way. I remember one episode they played a clip of Goku from "Burst Limit", and Meri said it was "horrible." I couldn't have disagreed more. So, on the one hand, we have facts (the dub messed up dialogue) to glorified opinions stated as facts (Freeeza's English voice is horrible). No effort is made to distinguish the two.

[Adamant]

the interesting part is the Knattarna part is a collective name for his nephews from what I understand, and isn't exactly translatable.

It translates pretty straight to "the kids", actually.

("Koopa" was always an incredibly common name for Bowser in English media too, being used in almost all cartoon and comic adaptations. Before Super Mario Bros. 3, "Bowser" had only ever appeared in game manuals, I believe)

[TripleRach]

It's funny you should mention separating facts from opinions, because VegettoEX and the others never make any attempt to separate facts from opinions on their podcasts, from what I've heard. And that's understandable; it's his show, you hear it his way. I remember one episode they played a clip of Goku from "Burst Limit", and Meri said it was "horrible." I couldn't have disagreed more. So, on the one hand, we have facts (the dub messed up dialogue) to glorified opinions stated as facts (Freeeza's English voice is horrible). No effort is made to distinguish the two.

The difference between fact and opinion should be common sense. Do you honestly expect people to precede all their statements with "This is a fact" or "This is my opinion"? Professional talk shows or editorials certainly don't do that.

[Ashura]

It translates pretty straight to "the kids", actually.

("Koopa" was always an incredibly common name for Bowser in English media too, being used in almost all cartoon and comic adaptations. Before Super Mario Bros. 3, "Bowser" had only ever appeared in game manuals, I believe)

Then that bit was explained to me wrong (I know nothing about swedish.)

Yeah, I was mentioning... Koopa was used a lot. I remember the SMB3 cartoon started Eggmanning it up since Mario kept calling him 'King Bowser Koopa.'

[Gaffer Tape]

For a counterexample to your "Eggman" catastrophe, Princess Toadstool was corrected back to the original Princess Peach back in the mid-90s, and you never hear anyone complain about it.

[KiddoCabbusses]

For a counterexample to your "Eggman" catastrophe, Princess Toadstool was corrected back to the original Princess Peach back in the mid-90s, and you never hear anyone complain about it.

This probably isn't much an explanation, but Mario fans tend to be less the "broken base" that Sonic fans are in regard to any change in direction the franchise takes. (I assume this is because Mario has never had a drastic change in mythos or tone as opposed to.... yeah, I'll not get too much into Sonic.)

As for the actual subject of debate, I guess I must ask... how much would any English production that -isn't- DBZ even take pronunciation issues into consideration? Other anime dubs, even to this current date, will usually not even bother trying to emulate the Japanese pronunciation of a character's name or actions. The Japanese don't even think DBZ is the worst example in this instance.
And Kenshin's dub is well-liked!

[Puto]

Actually, most current dubs do take pronunciation into account up to a certain point. That's why, say, the Naruto dub doesn't say "Narooto" or "Sasooke." It's the same kind of thing.

[TonyTheTiger]

Yeah, I was mentioning... Koopa was used a lot. I remember the SMB3 cartoon started Eggmanning it up since Mario kept calling him 'King Bowser Koopa.'

That seems to be his generally accepted full name at this point. The name "Koopa" is used much less these days but it still remains a part of the character when speaking of him as the King of the Koopas or when referring to his brood, the Koopa kids. Much like how Capcom officially caved to the long assumed "Charlie Nash."

I realize we're getting a bit off track here but I think we're all on the same train of thought. That certain things, given enough time, become strong enough to supersede anything regardless of correctness or authenticity.

Regardless of how the Japanese would pronounce the name, in Mortal Kombat the god of thunder is named "Ray-den." That's how we're told to say it with respect to that particular character so that's the man's name in the English speaking world. That doesn't hold true for "Rye-den" in Metal Gear Solid. In the English speaking world, that character's name is Rye-den. That's how we're told to say it. If the two characters happened to show up in the same story we'd have English speakers saying "Raiden" two separate ways depending on who they're referring to. Does that make a lick of sense? Not especially. But pop culture is funny like that. "Say-an" is now a part of pop culture.

[Rocketman]

we'd have English speakers saying "Raiden" two separate ways depending on who they're referring to. Does that make a lick of sense? Not especially.

It does in English, because English is a lot looser with what sounds each symbol makes. See "bait".

Or, for a similar one, God of War's Kray-tos vs some anime thing's Krah-tos.

[roidrage]

It's funny you should mention separating facts from opinions, because VegettoEX and the others never make any attempt to separate facts from opinions on their podcasts, from what I've heard. And that's understandable; it's his show, you hear it his way. I remember one episode they played a clip of Goku from "Burst Limit", and Meri said it was "horrible." I couldn't have disagreed more. So, on the one hand, we have facts (the dub messed up dialogue) to glorified opinions stated as facts (Freeeza's English voice is horrible). No effort is made to distinguish the two.

The difference between fact and opinion should be common sense. Do you honestly expect people to precede all their statements with "This is a fact" or "This is my opinion"? Professional talk shows or editorials certainly don't do that.

Considering that DaizEX is a group that presents itself as one that deals in facts in addition to entertaining (such as informing listeners of how the show was originally, giving dub fans a whole new perspective), the difference is a pretty big friggin' deal. Okay, so I'm stupid; I don't have "common sense". That doesn't mean you can pretend your word on every given subject is the final one. And no, you don't have to constantly preface your statements with "this is my opinion", but it doesn't hurt to slip that in occasionally either. They never do, from what I've heard.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, of course they deal in fact and plenty of it. But does that mean they're not allowed to express their opinions? I mean, in the example you give, Meri criticizing a vocal performance on a video game, in what context could that ever be mistaken for a fact? How could a value judgment of any kind ever be mistaken for fact? I mean, there is a fact in there: the fact that that was Meri's opinion, so if you're looking for a fact, there it is. Alternatively, if an episode of the podcast mentions that such and such information is on page 36 of Daizenshuu 4, how could that ever be mistaken for an opinion? You might find that it happens to be an incorrect fact (say if that information actually appears on page 46), but how could it be an opinion, other than it being Mike's opinion (or remembrance) that this information appears on this page of this guidebook?

[roidrage]

Well, of course they deal in fact and plenty of it. But does that mean they're not allowed to express their opinions? I mean, in the example you give, Meri criticizing a vocal performance on a video game, in what context could that ever be mistaken for a fact? How could a value judgment of any kind ever be mistaken for fact? I mean, there is a fact in there: the fact that that was Meri's opinion, so if you're looking for a fact, there it is. Alternatively, if an episode of the podcast mentions that such and such information is on page 36 of Daizenshuu 4, how could that ever be mistaken for an opinion? You might find that it happens to be an incorrect fact (say if that information actually appears on page 46), but how could it be an opinion, other than it being Mike's opinion (or remembrance) that this information appears on this page of this guidebook?

I absorb things the way they sound to me. So if it sounds like an opinion presented as fact, I assume it is. I'm not going to say anything as ridiculous as that they shouldn't express their own opinions, but a little aside of a few words, like "This is what I think," goes a long way. The problem is that in terms of opinion, they all pretty much agree with each other, so there's not much debate or much acknowledgement of a different point of view. Somebody who disagrees with them can listen to one of their podcasts and walk away with a feeling of frustration.

[Gaffer Tape]

So then is your frustration due to not being able to discern opinions from facts, or are you frustrated because those displayed opinions don't mesh with yours? If it's the latter, I mean, what can you do? Well, I guess I'll answer my own question. I mean, there is a discussion thread for each podcast. If you disagree with anything, you can discuss it... which is exactly how this thread came to be. You are currently doing exactly what (freely presenting a dissenting opinion) you're claiming doesn't happen.

[KiddoCabbusses]

Actually, most current dubs do take pronunciation into account up to a certain point. That's why, say, the Naruto dub doesn't say "Narooto" or "Sasooke." It's the same kind of thing.

I see what you mean, and FUNimation themselves tends to try harder on it as well.
Somehow, though, It still sounds "off" compared to how the original pronunciations are, though, mostly because an awkward-sounding first-syllable-stressing is applied after all the other "corrections", as opposed to the more balanced syllable-stressing Japanese has.
I think comparing the early Tenchi Muyo dubs to the latter "Tenchi Muyo GXP" and "Sasami Magical Girls Club" is a good way for anyone unfamiliar with what we're talking about to be on the same page here - IIRC, in the ol' Pioneer days Sasami's name was pronounced "Suh-Sah-MII", with empathize put on the middle and last syllable on the while in the latter it's pronounced "SAH-Sumi", with empathize on the first syllable. Meanwhile "Ahh-EH-ka" somehow became "Eye-ka", which is closer to the original JP pronunciation.

[roidrage]

So then is your frustration due to not being able to discern opinions from facts, or are you frustrated because those displayed opinions don't mesh with yours? If it's the latter, I mean, what can you do? Well, I guess I'll answer my own question. I mean, there is a discussion thread for each podcast. If you disagree with anything, you can discuss it... which is exactly how this thread came to be. You are currently doing exactly what (freely presenting a dissenting opinion) you're claiming doesn't happen.

I don't recall ever making the claim that it doesn't happen. If I did, then that was certainly a false claim. On the podcasts, yeah, that really doesn't happen, because all the people who participate in it are for the most part alike in their opinions. I believe the claim I made was that VegettoEX doesn't have much patience with or regard for people who disagree with him on certain topics, a claim I made based on my readings of his posts and listening to some of the podcast episodes. I originally said he had "low tolerance", but that was a poor choice of words; he obviously has very high tolerance, or I wouldn't be here. And I applaud him for that; I also applaud him for the fact that he's never knocked people, whatever else he has knocked. Still, I can't help but see an attitude seeping through in some of his statements, perhaps despite his better intentions, and unless I actually meet the guy, which isn't likely to happen, I'm wary of assuming otherwise simply due to the word of others.

[OutlawTorn]

It's got nothing to do with "accent." If you can say the words cone, zone, shone, lone, bone, tone, and hone, you can pronounce the "Son" in "Son Goku" correctly.

I agree that there is no reason why it cannot be pronounced correctly provided, of course, that you are aware that is how it is supposed to be pronounced. Until I heard the pronunciation on a podcast, I would have pronounced "Son" as you would if you were saying "my son" since, even though it may be obvious in Japanese, there is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise for an English speaker.

As for "Saiyan" I can see how the "say-ahn" pronunciation came about because of words which produce such a sound with an "ai" combination of vowels. "Bait" in English and "lait" in French, for example. On the flip side, I can see how one pronunciation is correct and another is not as you would pronounce the name of the province Québec as "Keh-beck" instead of "Kwuh-beck" although both pronunciations are technically acceptable.

[Cacarot]

I don't recall ever making the claim that it doesn't happen. If I did, then that was certainly a false claim. On the podcasts, yeah, that really doesn't happen, because all the people who participate in it are for the most part alike in their opinions. I believe the claim I made was that VegettoEX doesn't have much patience with or regard for people who disagree with him on certain topics, a claim I made based on my readings of his posts and listening to some of the podcast episodes. I originally said he had "low tolerance", but that was a poor choice of words; he obviously has very high tolerance, or I wouldn't be here. And I applaud him for that; I also applaud him for the fact that he's never knocked people, whatever else he has knocked. Still, I can't help but see an attitude seeping through in some of his statements, perhaps despite his better intentions, and unless I actually meet the guy, which isn't likely to happen, I'm wary of assuming otherwise simply due to the word of others.

I totally agree with you mate but, even though I tend to disagree with Vegetto's opinions as they are a bit one sided he is obviously open to people who prefer the dub at times as we are allowed to post on the site. I share in your feeling of frustration but he isn't that bad. Just continue what you are doing now and just enhance the discussion so that the forum serves it purpose. However, there are some people (penguinoftruth) who are seemingly blinded by their opinion and view all who have a contrary opinion in disdain. Those are the people who you should be giving shit to.

[TonyTheTiger]

I totally agree with you mate but, even though I tend to disagree with Vegetto's opinions as they are a bit one sided he is obviously open to people who prefer the dub at times as we are allowed to post on the site. I share in your feeling of frustration but he isn't that bad. Just continue what you are doing now and just enhance the discussion so that the forum serves it purpose. However, there are some people (penguinoftruth) who are seemingly blinded by their opinion and view all who have a contrary opinion in disdain. Those are the people who you should be giving shit to.

When did this turn into a "pick on people who have strong opinions" thread? I'm having trouble understanding the issue. I'm not being flip when I say I genuinely don't get what it means for an opinion to be "one sided." Isn't that redundant? What would constitute a two sided opinion?

Maybe it's because, in the end, it's just cartoons and nothing especially serious so I look upon all this talk of "frustration" completely dumbfounded. What are you looking for? Concessions? For somebody who firmly does not like a particular element to be backed into a corner and concede something like "Wow, you beat me. It may not be as bad as I thought!" It's not like most people here are especially new to the franchise or haven't seen everything ten times over. Most of us have substantial experience with it and as a result you're not going to find many people who are going to be "on the fence" about lots of things.

To bring it back to the topic at hand, my opinion is that "say-an" is essentially the English word now by virtue of, and I may phrase this wrong, a kind of cultural osmosis. It's effectively become the same thing as Street Fighter's dictator being named Bison. Correct or otherwise, it's just what it is now and trying to change it at this point would be futile.

[roidrage]

I totally agree with you mate but, even though I tend to disagree with Vegetto's opinions as they are a bit one sided he is obviously open to people who prefer the dub at times as we are allowed to post on the site. I share in your feeling of frustration but he isn't that bad. Just continue what you are doing now and just enhance the discussion so that the forum serves it purpose. However, there are some people (penguinoftruth) who are seemingly blinded by their opinion and view all who have a contrary opinion in disdain. Those are the people who you should be giving shit to.

When did this turn into a "pick on people who have strong opinions" thread? I'm having trouble understanding the issue. I'm not being flip when I say I genuinely don't get what it means for an opinion to be "one sided." Isn't that redundant? What would constitute a two sided opinion?

Maybe it's because, in the end, it's just cartoons and nothing especially serious so I look upon all this talk of "frustration" completely dumbfounded. What are you looking for? Concessions? For somebody who firmly does not like a particular element to be backed into a corner and concede something like "Wow, you beat me. It may not be as bad as I thought!" It's not like most people here are especially new to the franchise or haven't seen everything ten times over. Most of us have substantial experience with it and as a result you're not going to find many people who are going to be "on the fence" about lots of things.

To bring it back to the topic at hand, my opinion is that "say-an" is essentially the English word now by virtue of, and I may phrase this wrong, a kind of cultural osmosis. It's effectively become the same thing as Street Fighter's dictator being named Bison. Correct or otherwise, it's just what it is now and trying to change it at this point would be futile.

He's not complaining about opinions being "one-sided"; that would indeed be redundant. I'm not either. I'm complaining about the fact that other opinions aren't even acknowledged. There's never any room for discussion or two sides to a story, there only seems to be "I have my opinion, and it's 100% right. You can disagree with me, but you're still wrong, so I don't have to listen to what you say". You can have a strong opinion, and still say, "I respect your point of view and there are other ways to look at this". If we're talking about concrete facts, there are people who will be right and people who will be wrong. Opinions, no. By their very definition.

You say these are cartoons and I'm taking them too seriously? Why do you think I'm the only one doing so? if VegettoEX is going to turn Her'cule into Hercule through the word filter (and I don't believe that's just for clarification's sake, either. Why not just use the word filter to modify Her'cule into "Mr. Satan", rather than "Hercule"?) , and he's going to let his frustration and annoyance show in his posts, why shouldn't I? He gets all up in arms with emphasis on syllables. If you're going to call me out on it, you should be calling everyone out on it. You say VegettoEX has "strong opinions" and then you turn around and accuse me of "taking it too seriously".

I see where you're coming from; it's a cartoon, we all like it, so why care? I don't have a problem with that approach; hell, it's probably more mature than my own. But VegettoEX and all those who agree with him take it pretty damn seriously too, or at least certain aspects of it. You can take one approach, or you can take the other, but it makes no sense to say to one person, "You have strong opinions," then say to another person, who is on the opposite side of the issue but doing the same thing, "You're taking it too seriously."