Warriors with no ki control

[Bussani]

Because it's a PLOT HOLE! LOL

You know, this is exactly the response I was expecting. I've never been so disappointed about being right.

do you have proof that the ki sensing improved between Raditz's arrival and Vegeta's?

Raditz' scouter could find Goku and Piccolo wherever they were on the planet. Goku and Piccolo couldn't find Raditz using ki sensing, nor could Kuririn tell how powerful Raditz was.

You keep saying this, you haven't shown any examples of anything contradicting it...

I have, but you just insist it's a plot hole. Of course the theory that's an alternative to something being a plot hole looks wrong when you continue to insist that it's a plot hole. This is the most backwards logic I've seen in ages.

If that were true, Goku wouldn't have been completly surprised and fooled that Vegeta had so much power, when he powered up! He increased the size of his ki, then Goku said "He's stronger than I thought he'd be, hit the road." See how that fact goes with that statement, backing up my claims?

No. What I see is you continuing to ignore this interpretation in favor of your own and then use your own to try to prove this one impossible. The whooole point of this idea is that what Goku senses and what a scouter reads are two different things, yet you continue trying to use what Goku senses as proof of something. You can't disprove a theory without even addressing it properly.

Ok, you need to stop with the analogies already, because I'm waiting for you to start talking about technology like Iron Man's armor, or something. "The pulsar waves from the Mach I can't measure the gravitude of the raydon beams of the Mach II, because the design is that the particles of the XMS8 enforce is only set for level 12 equations." LOL

Let's face it, stick to in-story references and examples, like I have. Stop with these 4th-wall analogies, they're just bad and they are just molded around your opinionated beliefs, it's terrible to use such as an example in a debate.

I wasn't using analogies to convince you that any of this is fact. I was using analogies to show you that there are plenty of examples of large things being undetectable to one thing but not another, which for some reason you keep dismissing as "silly".

There's nothing different from what the scouters do and what the ki sensors do, or, rather, if there is, prove there is. Let's see some manga references to prove your belief.

It's the simplest thing in the world if you stop crying "PLOT HOLE"...which is the whole point of the idea.

Kyui thinks Vegeta has grown weaker because of his low scouter reading. Vegeta surprises him by controlling his scouter reading. Vegeta tells him he learned it from the locals on Earth. If we take these as true--that's a hypothetical for you, since you can't imagine it not being a plot hole--then Vegeta's scouter reading didn't change during the battle on Earth. Yet Goku and Piccolo sensed his ki change. Ergo, what they sense as ki and what scouters record aren't exactly the same thing.

If you can't prove that idea impossible with facts--so none of your own subjective interpretations, opinions, or insisting a piece of evidence has to be a plot hole--then you've failed. I don't know about everyone else, but so far you've said absolutely nothing that convinces me.

[Kaboom]

Let's try to keep things shonen and respectful, okay?

Anyway, if you ask me, the whole thing just boils down to the methods used being wildly different.

The type of power-up that we see Vegeta, Nappa, and a few others do, is not quite the same thing as suppressing your power and then revealing it. It's more equivalent to being in a relaxed state when you're not fighting, and then "flexing your muscles" when you do. Their actual power level doesn't change, just the amount of effort behind it.

This is different from what the Earth-fighters can do, which is actually manipulating and changing their level of Ki at will. They also seem better at using their power, such as focusing it for high-powered attacks, which will read as a higher power level on a scouter.

Tried-and-true analogy time:

• Regular resting power: Wearing a short sleeved t-shirt. Not really trying to hide your strength, but not showing it off, either. People can tell that you're pretty strong from seeing the muscles in your arms, but they only get a rough idea.
  Powering up / "Surfacing" Ki: Ripping off your shirt and flexing. Even though you haven't gained any actual muscle, now everyone can see more of what you've got goin' on, and have a much better grasp on how strong you are.
  "Suppressing" Ki / Manipulating power level: Wearing a loose-fitting long-sleeve shirt and stuffing a pillow in it. Now nobody can tell you've got any muscles at all.

Now when it comes to reading power, a scouter is much more precise and scientific. It will give you an exact reading for whoever you're scanning, regardless of whether they've "powered up" or not. But it can be easily fooled by people who can freely control their Ki output so as to suppress their true power.

On the flipside, sensing Ki naturally is advantageous in that it's more, shall we say, "intuitive." It operates like a sixth sense in battle, giving someone who's capable of it an edge in tactics and perception over someone who can't. A scouter may be able to tell you more accurately how strong someone is, but it sure as heck won't help you keep track of their movements when you're going blow-for-blow with them.

The downside of Ki-sensing is what everyone's been talking about; since it relies largely on how other people's Ki "feels," it's not as precise as a scouter when it comes to actually measuring power. You may be able to feel that someone is very strong, to roughly compare them to yourself, and if you're especially skilled even be able to tell if they're hiding more power or not. But it can be hard or impossible to get an accurate impression of someone's full power if they're not actually pumped up and using it.

[FindKenshi]

I concede the point about their ki sensing improving, so although you are right about that, I don't feel it hurts my overall argument--if anything you're helping show how they're better at sensing ki than they once were, so it seems even less likely they'd miss something as glaringly obvious as Vegeta being around twice as powerful as Nappa... that's like the elephant sitting in the room... HOW do you miss something like that?

Regarding it not possibly being a plot hole:
The way I see it is this. Here's the evidence you have going for you

1. Vegeta's statement about learning to control his ki while on Earth.

Here's the evidence I have going for me

1. No one can tell how strong Nappa is until he powers up.
2. Piccolo can't tell Vegeta > Nappa
3. Goku can't tell tell how strong Vegeta was until he powered up
4. All the statements about scouters being inferior to ki-sensing
5. Vegeta actually getting serious mid-way through the Goku fight, he does a power-up sequence, then he comes at Goku fast and strong, way more than he did before (his eyes are even shining as he does it)
6. Vegeta focusing his ki just like Goku's kamehameha
etc.

The list goes on. Doesn't it make more sense that Vegeta's line to kiwi is the plothole, since it's the ONLY contradiction we have here?

You are coming up with these theories about "ki at rest", "ki being brought to surface," "ki being activated", etc... nothing like this ever stated in the manga, nor touched on in the guidebook. Am I wrong? Where does it talk about this? Does any character mention his power being maxed out but "resting beneath the surface?" It just doesn't make sense.

When Vegeta/Nappa do their little aura power up that looks identical to the other characters power ups throughout the story, it ACTS the exact same since we got characters saying "oh look, he's super strong" when BEFORE the power up, they didn't know.

That is "powering up" in a textbook sense... and "powering up" is ki control.

You also keep saying that what Goku can sense and what a scouter shows are two different things, and while I respect it as your opinion, I continue to patiently ask for an example of that from the manga, can't you give me even a single one? I've never seen anything that indicates that, while everything we see indicates they AREN'T any different. Character has more ki, then you'll have a higher power level, then the scouter shows a higher number. It's pretty cut and dry to me, am I missing something?

As for the analogies: Here's why I'm asking to put them to rest. Yes, you are trying to show me your point of view, but I already know your point of view... fluffing them up with an analogy isn't really going to convince me. I do understand your point of view, I'm simply rejecting it because, as I've said, nothing supports it. I need an in-story example where you can show me "look on this page, such and such has a high reading on the scouter, but this ki-sensing character thinks he's weaker because the ki is "at rest." There's just no actual evidence for this point of view.

And the analogies are just getting even more and more "out there." Take Kaboom's for instance
Kaboom: Supressing Ki = "Wearing a loose-fitting long-sleeve shirt and stuffing a pillow in it. Now nobody can tell you've got any muscles at all."

Uh, what? See what I mean, though? Suppressing ki is shrinking the size of your ki so it looks smaller to observers. Where's this "fluffing it up by stuffing a pillow in your shirt" come from? You may be saying it's "like that, but not that exactly," which is fine, but the analogy ONLY works if I agree with your point of view. I simply don't agree with that point of view, so that's why making the analogy is pointless.

It's the simplest thing in the world if you stop crying "PLOT HOLE"...

It's not the simplest thing in the world, though. YOUR explanation required things that don't make sense being explained with self-created fan-theory. My explanations are only based on what we see happen in the manga.

Nappa and Vegeta show up. Everyone comments they can feel their dark power, or whatever. Nappa begins walking towards them, at this point they're all getting ready. Nappa stops and begins powering up. NOW everyone is freaking out, because suddenly Nappa's ki shot way up, Piccolo comments "I never thought it would be this much!"

And they still don't know Vegeta > Nappa, until Vegeta barked that order, Piccolo had assumed Nappa was stronger. Because he felt stronger.

When does someone NOT feel as strong as they really are? When they're suppressing their power.

It's literally that simple. The ONLY thing going for you is Vegeta's line to Kiwi, which is basically a contradiction to ALL the other statements and examples. I hope I'm explaining myself adequately.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not fighting =/= Suppressing

[FindKenshi]

Not fighting =/= Suppressing

It basically is. In the android saga, don't they even say "man they aren't fighting yet, so their ki is supressed, when they're trying to find where Goku and the others went?

If you think that Vegeta's statement about Nappa and Vegeta not knowing how to control their power level is true, then it shouldn't matter if Nappa is "not fighting", "fighting" or "fighting really, really hard." His power should still feel gigantic.

And I'd accept that, IF, and ONLY if, the characters hadn't freaked out by his power-up and said "I never thought it would be this much." By Piccolo saying that, it's a VERY clear indication that they had no idea how powerful Nappa really was, until he powered up. In that case, it's the same as every other character who can control their ki? How is it not the same. If I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Let's see some manga examples, ref. chapter and page number--point me towards the exact word balloons that explain what you're claiming.

[Kaboom]

FindKenshi, I don't know what to tell you. You're throwing around something you see as a plot-hole, others are offering solid ideas, with foundations in the manga, that show it doesn't have to be, but you keep responding with little more than, "not good enough!" No, there may not be any definitive official answer, but we're doing our best. What do you expect to happen here?

[Fox666]

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

[FindKenshi]

Look at this: From Herm's strength checker.

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P6.2, P10.2
Goku: “What ki…! [ ] Sorry. Seems he’s even stronger than I thought.”

So, when Vegeta powers up to blow Nappa away, Goku's actually saying "What ki...!" So, It's the KI that Goku feels, which increased and is bigger than he thought... it doesn't get more cut and dry than this.

Vegeta: Feels weaker than Nappa
Vegeta: Powers up
Goku: What ki!

It's the same as every other power-up sequence. Vegeta's power got bigger.

@ Kaboom. You're asking what I expect? I've said what I expect over and over, all I'm asking for is an example in the manga that supports your claims, nothing more.

are offering solid ideas, with foundations in the manga

I'm not seeing where it's founded in the manga, though. This is why I keep requesting references... can someone elaborate? Take something where you can show me "Look, Kenshi, chapter X, page X, 3rd panel, he's saying this, and it proves me right." Know what I mean?

[FindKenshi]

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

It's still different. All this proves is that someone will be exerting more ki while they fight, but in both of my examples, Nappa and Vegeta aren't in the middle of fighting. They had simply powered up with an aura, and then the characters are already stating that they're stronger... and Nappa/Vegeta also weren't fighting (quite yet) in those examples. We're talking apples and oranges.

So, worded in another way, Nappa and Vegeta are raising their power first in preparation for fighting. Which is pretty much EXACTLY what the Ki-Controllers do!

[Kaboom]

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

Very good example.

Another one that comes to mind for me is when Gohan, as Saiyaman, was trying to find Videl, but couldn't feel where she was until she started fighting, which evidently made her Ki "stand out" more than otherwise.

Also, when Bulma and company hide in a cave while Freeza and his entourage pass by, Gohan and Kuririn both sensed Freeza. At that time, they could tell how horrifyingly powerful he was, but never got a full grasp of it until he powered up to start fighting them and Vegeta later. While Freeza is able to control his power to some degree, he certainly isn't capable of concealing or suppressing it.

@ Kaboom. You're asking what I expect? I've said what I expect over and over, all I'm asking for is an example in the manga that supports your claims, nothing more.
are offering solid ideas, with foundations in the manga
I'm not seeing where it's founded in the manga, though. This is why I keep requesting references... can someone elaborate? Take something where you can show me "Look, Kenshi, chapter X, page X, 3rd panel, he's saying this, and it proves me right." Know what I mean?

Fox666 already just did that, but you didn't think it's good enough. What's being proposed is that for people who can't freely control their Ki, "powering up" for battle is itself just a matter of effort. It's starting to fight without actually starting to fight, and it results in their Ki being more "obvious" for someone who measures Ki naturally by feeling it rather than through a scouter.

The problem here is that you're demanding "facts" where none exist. No, there is no definitive "this is exactly how it works" statement to prove this stuff; if it were that easy, there would be no room for discussion in the first place. But just because something doesn't have a printed and laid-out 100% positive answer doesn't mean it's a plot hole.

We're not always flat-out told the answer to these things. Rather, we're shown the material and supposed to think for ourselves a little bit, and, to be honest... this one's easy to figure out.

"Lack of 100% proven explanation" =/= "plot hole."

If you can't comprehend what you're being told, then the thread will just continue fruitlessly going in circles.

[NANLIT]

I look at it as fooling the scouter or not. Even though Nappa and Vegeta raise their ki and their opponents can sense the change, the scouter would still read it as the same power for Nappa and Vegeta because it's reading their maximum power no matter what. The Z Senshi are able to fool the scouter's technology; it may seem that it's the same as what Nappa and Vegeta were doing but something's different that can fool the scouters and Vegeta didn't know of it until he went to Earth, learned of it, and taught it himself. The only way Freeza's men change their battle power, according to the scouters, without training is through transformations like Zarbon and Freeza it seems. What exactly is the difference between Nappa and Vegeta raising their ki and the Z Senshi raising their ki, I do not know, but something is strongly implied to be different and that fools the scouters.

[FindKenshi]

Let me ask you something, Kaboom:

You say: "For those who can't control their ki, 'powering-up' is just a matter of effort."

Ok, effort towards... WHAT exactly?

The powering-up makes the ki "more obvious" as you say and "get bigger" as I say. In BOTH cases, though, it's still the ki which is changing. Whether it's "just getting more noticable" or really "getting bigger", it's still controlling ki.

You say for those who can't control ki it's just a matter of effort, but what is the effort even doing? It's changing their ki signature... how is this not ki control?

[Bussani]

As for the analogies: Here's why I'm asking to put them to rest. Yes, you are trying to show me your point of view, but I already know your point of view... fluffing them up with an analogy isn't really going to convince me.

What part of "the analogies weren't there to convince you" did you not understand?

I'm not responding to the rest, since it's the same thing you've said over and over again. You say that there's all this evidence supporting your opinion that this idea is possible when the whole point of the idea is to look at those exact things from a different perspective, which you haven't done once. You keep saying that Goku felt their ki change, therefore they can change their ki, when the entire point of the idea is that what Goku feels as a change in ki could not register as a change in scouter numbers. You can't disprove one interpretation with the complete opposite interpretation. Both are possible unless you can address them as though they're hypothetically true and still find a logical reason that they can't work. Unless you're ever going to do that, I'm done.

[Kaboom]

Let me ask you something, Kaboom:
You say: "For those who can't control their ki, 'powering-up' is just a matter of effort."
Ok, effort towards... WHAT exactly?
The powering-up makes the ki "more obvious" as you say and "get bigger" as I say. In BOTH cases, though, it's still the ki which is changing. Whether it's "just getting more noticable" or really "getting bigger", it's still controlling ki.
You say for those who can't control ki it's just a matter of effort, but what is the effort even doing? It's changing their ki signature... how is this not ki control?

Alright, I'll just lay out how it works one more time, as simply and purely factual as I can:


Even if someone doesn't have the ability to control and conceal their Ki, and thus can't fool a scouter, when they pump themselves up for battle they will apparently, somehow, still "feel" more powerful than they did before to people who sense Ki naturally instead of using a scouter.


That is the bottom line. That is what the manga itself shows and tells us. The manga has not gone super-in-depth to explain HOW this works, because it's not necessary. But the lack of a 100% concrete explanation does not make it a plot hole.

That's how it is, take it or leave it. But either way, stop demanding concrete proof when there is none and none is needed. It's getting annoying to other members, who are running out of patience.

[FindKenshi]

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to have this discussion with me. Why is it so important to you guys that I admit that I'm wrong or whatever you're hoping for? I just don't agree with you. So you admit there's no concrete proof to show me, ok, but I disagree with the part about "and no proof is necessary." It is necessary, to me. The idea that person x feels like a 200 to a ki-sensor while a scouter would still show 1000 seems like a contradiction to the whole "ki-sensing and scouter reading reads the same thing: one's "battle power." To me, yeah I need proof to accept that idea. At this point, you could basically just say "ok I guess we agree that we disagree" or you could say "stop arguing with us it's annoying other users." Ok, fine I'll stop arguing then. But I still don't agree with 'yall.

Up until now, I just don't see how I've been anything but objective and rational in this discussion. I've explained my point of view... it's not like I'm coming out of left field.

[Bussani]

Why is it so important to you guys that I admit that I'm wrong[ ]?

It's not. You were claiming that an interpretation was utterly impossible and I was waiting for you to prove why. So far you haven't, as I've explained above, so there's nothing left to discuss.

[Kaboom]

...so there's nothing left to discuss.

I agree. The evidence and ideas have all been presented; it's up to the individual whether or not to believe them.