Why do people 'cap out' the humans? A long rant/essay

[Mystic Gohan]

I think not believing someone can make an outrageous gain in short amount of time is ridiculous. Goku went from 8k to 90k in 6 days. Piccolo went from 1-2 million to well over SSJ tier in 3 years. The SSJ's made outrageous rosat gains in 1/2 years. Gotenks multi-folded his power in like 2 weeks. So it's not ridiculous really.

1) Goku abused his near death boosts and gravity training.

2) Piccolo's gain is so ridiculous there have been many fan theories trying to explain away the ridiculousness.

3) Vegeta and Trunks' RoSaT gains weren't ridiculous, they did it specifically to gain new forms though. Goku's and Gohan's ridiculous gains come from mastering the Super Saiyan form.

4) We have no idea how much Gotenks improved in those 2 weeks, except for gaining SS3.

And having ridiculous strength increases happen a few times in the series wouldn't justify more ridiculous power ups anyway.

1. I'll give you that.
2. It's still a gain that you would never expect to happen
3. Well. Super Vegeta>>Semi-Cell(FP)>>>Initial Semi Cell>>>Android 16=Imperfect Cell(post humans)>>>Android 17/Piccolo>>>Pre Rosat SSJ's implies a huge increase for the two imo.
4. SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ2 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks(post rosat)>>>Base Gotenks(post rosat)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre) is implied, so i would say huge gains in a short amt of time is plausible.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

3. Well. Super Vegeta>>Semi-Cell(FP)>>>Initial Semi Cell>>>Android 16=Imperfect Cell(post humans)>>>Android 17/Piccolo>>>Pre Rosat SSJ's implies a huge increase for the two imo.

You know what Room of Spirit and Time is, and why it's so special, right? And, by the way, don't forget that they are Saiyans, and also got some new forms during their training.

4. SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ2 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks(post rosat)>>>Base Gotenks(post rosat)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre) is implied, so i would say huge gains in a short amt of time is plausible.

Gotenks didn't get that strong from what I remember, unless you (or someone else) can prove me wrong.

[Piccolo Daimao]

In terms of Gotenks' strength improvement in the RoSaT, I think he's talking about Piccolo commenting that he'd powered up hugely and that they might actually have a chance. Which is followed by Gotenks attacking Super Boo, who takes no damage, and Piccolo saying that they're doomed before the end of the chapter. So I think it's safe to just dismiss it as the set-up for a gag.

[Mystic Gohan]

In terms of Gotenks' strength improvement in the RoSaT, I think he's talking about Piccolo commenting that he'd powered up hugely and that they might actually have a chance. Which is followed by Gotenks attacking Super Boo, who takes no damage, and Piccolo saying that they're doomed before the end of the chapter. So I think it's safe to just dismiss it as the set-up for a gag.

I don't like dismissing stuff as gag, because the DB portion of the manga is gag for the most part. I just try to make it work even if i don't like it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

In terms of Gotenks' strength improvement in the RoSaT, I think he's talking about Piccolo commenting that he'd powered up hugely and that they might actually have a chance. Which is followed by Gotenks attacking Super Boo, who takes no damage, and Piccolo saying that they're doomed before the end of the chapter. So I think it's safe to just dismiss it as the set-up for a gag.

I don't like dismissing stuff as gag, because the DB portion of the manga is gag for the most part. I just try to make it work even if i don't like it.

To each their own, but it's still a gag.

[012yArthur0]

Well, When two strong people train togheter, they get big ki increase right?

And piccolo just multiplied himself while he was on the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, so... That's explain it?

Well, I rushed for this theory, because, after all, it still ridiculous.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Surprised we didn't get the "But Tien dodged #20's eye lasers at the same speed as Goku, so he must be around his level" gem yet.

[Toadster]

First off, we don't know how strong they got, so I'm not sure where you're getting those power levels from. Second, Piccolo got a major boost from just a few days of training... so much so, that he was able to match 2nd form Freeza after fusing with Nail. Now, you can argue that the fusion is what gave him most of the power, but he was confident that his training with Kaio gave him enough strength to match the tyrant Kaio warned him against. Obviously a bit arrogant, but it's reasonable to believe he got a significant gain from the training.

And hey, it's not like insane power boosts are unheard of in DBZ.

A bit arrogant? He was completely wrong! Safe to say he didn't get close to Freeza seeing as he was shocked at how much power the fusion gave him. If he had gone from 3,500 (Daizenshuu number) to ~500,000 (able to fight first form Freeza) in 5 days, you'd think that would be a lot more notable than the boost Nail gave him.

And Tenshinhan being 120,000 is simple math, and a low estimate at that. That would make each of his clones 30,000 which is below what Vegeta was at against Recoome, and Tenshinhan didn't get smashed like Vegeta so he'd have to be even higher than 120,000.

Which is totally horseshit.

While Piccolo was obviously over arrogant, it's reasonable to conclude that training with Kaio gave him a significant boost in power to trigger that confidence. Piccolo's not stupid and he would know how useless wasting two wishes like that would have been.

Also, Tenshinhan being 120,000 is not "simple math." Captain Ginyu himself stated Goku only needed a power level around 60,000 to outdue the Ginyu Force. Tenshinhan could have been in that range.

It's also a possibility the humans knew Kaioken, which helped them overcome the Ginyu Force. After all, Tenshinhan stated in the manga that the max Kaioken is 20. The only way he could have known about the Kaioken at that time is if Kaio informed him about it.

It all makes sense to me. Kaio's planet has 10x gravity, the humans trained with eachother and Piccolo, and insane boosts just happen in DBZ.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Piccolo was just eager to go into battle. You could see this when Kaio is talking to Goku about Freeza before the training even started. He did grow considerably powerful through Kaio's tougher training; especially when you consider his dialogue and Nail's on his power. How strong is another story entirely. I personally think he's much stronger than Nail, but still well below Ginyu. Also, I think Tien was only aware that Goku could up his Kaio-Ken up to level 10. The level 20 seemed to just be a last minute thing.

[Bussani]

3. Well. Super Vegeta>>Semi-Cell(FP)>>>Initial Semi Cell>>>Android 16=Imperfect Cell(post humans)>>>Android 17/Piccolo>>>Pre Rosat SSJ's implies a huge increase for the two imo.

Yes, but you're still talking about a special method of training, not to mention that they went "beyond the Super Saiyan". If training with Kaio is as good as thousands of years of training on Earth (which is how Kaio puts it himself), and training in the Room of Spirit and Time is even harder than training with Kaio, then of course the gains are going to be good. But that's also exactly why training on Earth should be absolutely nothing in comparison.

4. SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ2 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks(post rosat)>>>Base Gotenks(post rosat)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre) is implied, so i would say huge gains in a short amt of time is plausible.

Under certain circumstances, yes, they are. But if there's no good reason for it, that's when the audience raises questions. If the audience raises questions then you, as the author, have pushed suspension of disbelief too far.

Also, Tenshinhan being 120,000 is not "simple math." Captain Ginyu himself stated Goku only needed a power level around 60,000 to outdue the Ginyu Force. Tenshinhan could have been in that range.

Even that far outdoes what Goku managed in 158 days using less than a week. I'm not going to say that's impossible, but you at least have to admit that it's a stretch of logic, even by Dragon Ball standards.

[Saiga]

While Piccolo was obviously over arrogant, it's reasonable to conclude that training with Kaio gave him a significant boost in power to trigger that confidence. Piccolo's not stupid and he would know how useless wasting two wishes like that would have been.

Also, Tenshinhan being 120,000 is not "simple math." Captain Ginyu himself stated Goku only needed a power level around 60,000 to outdue the Ginyu Force. Tenshinhan could have been in that range.

It's also a possibility the humans knew Kaioken, which helped them overcome the Ginyu Force. After all, Tenshinhan stated in the manga that the max Kaioken is 20. The only way he could have known about the Kaioken at that time is if Kaio informed him about it.

It all makes sense to me. Kaio's planet has 10x gravity, the humans trained with eachother and Piccolo, and insane boosts just happen in DBZ.

Nah, that move was definitely stupid. He was outclassed so his gains don't matter pre-fusion.

You missed the part about his clones, didn't you? When he splits into four copies, his power is reduced to 1/4 per clone. So for his clones to not suck, they'd have to be at least over 30,000.

The humans weren't shown using the Kaio-ken, so there's no evidence that they have it. Also, that's not Tenshinhan's actual quote:

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

He's talking about KK10, not KK20, and it's only Goku's current limit.

Insane boosts happen, but the humans outdoing Goku in fair less effective training is just plain crap.

[Toadster]

The point is, Tenshinhan was aware of the Kaioken and its multipliers, something he could have only learned from Kaio. I'm not arguing he knows the Kaioken, but I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Also, the humans outdoing Goku is not "plain crap", at least not up until that point in the story. In fact, by that point, it has already happened. They managed to get to Kaio's in far less time than Goku did. They only had slightly higher power levels, and in Chaozhou's case, almost negiligible.

[Saiga]

The point is, Tenshinhan was aware of the Kaioken and its multipliers, something he could have only learned from Kaio. I'm not arguing he knows the Kaioken, but I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Also, the humans outdoing Goku is not "plain crap", at least not up until that point in the story. In fact, by that point, it has already happened. They managed to get to Kaio's in far less time than Goku did. They only had slightly higher power levels, and in Chaozhou's case, almost negiligible.

They had much higher power levels. Goku had ~416 IIRC when he ran Snake Way, and they all had power levels in the 1000s (except maybe for Chaotzu). That's more than double Goku, in Kurilin and Tenshinhan's case, more than quadruple, so a shorter time on Snake Way makes more sense. That's not them outdoing them because they started out stronger.

However, Goku was at 8000 (more than all the humans ''combined'', and was training in x100 Gravity while abusing near death boosts. For them to outdo that would be outrageously stupid.

[Toadster]

The margin in power difference isn't that great to account for just a few days to make it to the end of Snake Way, as opposed to Goku's 177 days. Chaozhou was just a couple hundred stronger at best. They all trained with eachother on Kaio's, which has x10 gravity. Having training partners has proven to yield larger gains as opposed to training alone. Piccolo received a large boost during his training with Kaio.

The fact is, it's perfectly reasonable to assume the humans gained such a large boost (and possibly used Kaioken), especially considering the other stupidly large power boosts going on. Vegeta's post-Recoome beating zenkai and Goku's zenkai on Namek, for instance.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kaio didn't even teach them Genki Dama. I believe that he tried to teach them Kaio-ken, but they never managed to master it, so they never had the chance to continue to Genki Dama. Besides, shouldn't Piccolo know Kaio-ken too? Not only that, but if they knew how to use it, we would have seen it.

[Saiga]

The margin in power difference isn't that great to account for just a few days to make it to the end of Snake Way, as opposed to Goku's 177 days. Chaozhou was just a couple hundred stronger at best. They all trained with eachother on Kaio's, which has x10 gravity. Having training partners has proven to yield larger gains as opposed to training alone.

How do you know it took them a few days to reach the end of Snake Way? The died a month before they arrived there according to Herms' timeline. How do you know Chaotzu is only a couple hundred stronger than Goku was? 10x gravity is less than 100x gravity, you know. And though training partners are better than training alone, Goku was going through superior training and abusing healing boosts. The humans trained together at Kami's and still ended up much weaker than Goku was training alone at the Kaio's planet. And Goku's power boost on the way to Namek was comparatively far better, so to say they'd keep up in worse conditions isn't a solid argument.

Piccolo received a large boost during his training with Kaio.

Please don't say that like it's a fact when we don't have any evidence of it.

The fact is, it's perfectly reasonable to assume the humans gained such a large boost (and possibly used Kaioken), especially considering the other stupidly large power boosts going on. Vegeta's post-Recoome beating zenkai and Goku's zenkai on Namek, for instance.

Erm, humans don't get zenkais. One character getting a large boost through one method doesn't justify other characters getting the same boost without that method.

[Bussani]

I fail to see how the humans arriving at Kaio's faster and having sparring partners means it makes perfect sense for them to make better progress in five days than Goku made in 158, not to mention almost keeping up with Goku's even more ridiculous training on the way to Namek. Possible? Anything's possible in fiction. But this is a big stretch!

Also, how much time did it take them to reach Kaio's? They died, and the day after that everyone decided on their plan to go to Namek. Bulma spent ten days getting the ship ready, and it took a month (or about 34 days according to the guide timelines) for them to get to Namek. Goku sets off at around that time, and it's then that he's told about them making it to Kaio's. That's about 45 days, compared to around the 180 days (give or take) it took Goku. If we take into account that Goku was wearing his weighted clothes (was that a good idea when he was in such a hurry?!) Tenshinhan should have been more than five times stronger than him and made it in a fourth of the time. This doesn't strike me as being terribly implausible. It's Chaozu that you'd think would slow them down, but he's small and easy to carry, I guess.

By the way, Goku did have a sparring partner. He sparred with Kaio, which we see briefly in the manga and are told in one of the guides. This surely became less useful once he surpassed him, but it's still something.

[In Brightest Day]

So just out of curiosity, if we go with the theory that Nail had his potential unlocked by Guru earlier and that Piccolo benefited from that during his training on Earth with Goku and Gohan, why exactly is that so far-fetched? With the ludicrous gains that Kuririn (an Earthling) and Gohan made on Namek in such a short amount of time, and with what we know about Piccolo:

A). He's a Namekian, meaning he can make bigger gains from his training than Earthlings (but not quite as much Saiyans)

B). He is a particularly talented Namekian and...

C). He was involved in intense training with a Super Saiyan for three years.

I'll repeat: If we take all of those things into account, why is it so unbelievable that he likely made it to around a SSJ level of power?


Side note: If Kuririn continued to receive the added boost from Guru during his 3 years of training (and we don't have any reason to believe he didn't), then it isn't really far-fetched to assume he made it into the low-millions by the time Dr. Gero and Android #19 showed up. That'd mean Tenshinhan and Yamcha probably got left in the dust, but even then we don't have a clue as how powerful they became after Kaio's training.

[Mystic Gohan]

Idk how intensely he could train with a SSJ if he is only at around 1-2 mil. Probably Goku sparred in base until Piccolo started getting really powerful.

[Saiga]

Well, Gohan doesn't appear to be anything notable until after he exits the RoSaT, so you'd think if the power up could push Kurilin into the millions it'd push Gohan a lot further. Seeing as how after his near death boost he was able to push third-form Freeza back with an enraged Masenko thingy, you'd think he'd be catching up to Piccolo soon.