'Controlling one's battle power' Confusion

[Mjb1985]

Undeniable proof! I concede!

[Fox666]

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

If Piccolo gained 7 points for each day of training, after one year he would be at 3,000. Oh, look!

Except that's from a single fight, not a day of training. More like 20 minutes of exertion. In which case it wouldn't be 7 points a day, it would be closer to 100, and that's a weighted increase, the unweighted would be even higher, which dosen't work at all.

No it is not, it took a while for Bulma repair the Scouter.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, it's only 7 points; it's not that much of a power increase, especially compared to, well, most of the other ones before and after. During the fight with Blue, Kuririn commented that Gokuu had become stronger since the tournament, despite the fact that he'd only fought a bunch of RRA goons that, most of whom, were far beneath him in strength anyway.

And I mentioned training as a possibility too. Between giving Gohan his new clothes and Blooma's "329" reading, he could've trained a little, even if it was in the night. We don't know much of Piccolo's nocturnal habits, so it's possible that he could've done some training to boost up his strength a bit.

Goku may have been fighting low level goons, but he was fighting a lot of them. Plus, he's a Saiya-jin, and while it was never mentioned in DB itself, only Z, I figure the main reason he was stronger between the Budokai and the Blue fight was his recovery. He'd gone through a lot during the tournament, and especially during the fight with Roshi.

And, as I remember it, didn't Bulma get the scouter working less than a day after the fight? That wouldn't have been much time to train, either.

But he wasn't close to death, therefore wouldn't have gotten a Zenkai. And even though he was fighting a lot of them, they were still weak goons, yet this granted enough of a boost for Kuririn to notice it. Raditz would be worth at least 240 of those guys.

And however long it took for Blooma to get the scouter the working, it doesn’t matter, because Piccolo, as well as all the other super-warriors, are incredible martial artists. In even just that short amount of time, Piccolo could’ve trained enough to get his BP up by 7 points. These guys improve fast.

@ PD

Goku most likelye received a zenkai from his Muscle Tower adventure. Remember he was shot point blank and was clearly very injured, #8 is carrying him out like a baby.

So I definitely wouldn't use that as logic to as why Piccollo went from 322-329. Piccolo is not a Saiyan after all.

Lighter weights works just fine. No reason to get oddly complicated.

I don't believe Gokuu ever got a Zenkai before his fight with Vegeta, as no power increase from coming close to death (if he ever did, that is) was noted. I don't care what Kuririn said in the Freeza arc, since he wouldn't have been present for any of those occasions and, upon hearing Vegeta's statement, may've just assumed that the reason for Gokuu's incredible power gains after periods of time in which he may or may not have seen him were Zenkais.

His encounter with White was nothing near death; he was just severely injured.

But yeah, lighter weights work too. I wasn't getting "oddly complicated"; it was just one of numerous acceptable theories.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Does his battle with Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai qualify as a "near-death" experience? I know it wasn't noted back then, but I'm just saiyan.

[Mjb1985]

That's a fair approach. It wasn't suggested during early DB so why accept it? I personally just take the statement and run with it , I don't see a good reason not to. Kuririn said that Goku got stronger after every fierce battle so I'm cool with it.

[AlexFili]

Aren't "Ki" and "Battle power" basically synonymous for the same thing?

Hmm I wouldn't say that. Let's take Burter and Jeice into consideration. Burter has rubbish Ki abilities compared to Jeice, yet they are at the same level in terms of Battle Power. It's just that beam specialists tend to be stronger since they don't have to get up close.

[Mjb1985]

Why do you think Burter's ki abilities were rubbish?

[AlexFili]

Well okay, maybe not rubbish, but he certainly wasn't as skilled with Ki as Jeice was. Or at the very least, didn't show any knowledge of unique Ki moves (besides Purple Comet). In the videogames for example, he focuses more on speed and physical combat. Of course I realise the games aren't canon and the fact that Burter was killed quickly may have also not shown Burter's true power or abilities.

[Mjb1985]

I get it. Some may think Reecome is more power weighted , Burter with speed , Jeice being the balanced one.

Either way I always thought the whole " fastest in the universe " was complete nonsense for the obvious reasons.

More or less throwaways for me , they are all around the same with similar abilities , I'm thinking it was just too spice up the characters a bit.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Does his battle with Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai qualify as a "near-death" experience? I know it wasn't noted back then, but I'm just saiyan.

Maybe, maybe not. But yeah, it still wasn't noted. I personally just think it's easier to assume that Gokuu didn't get a Zenkai before the fight with Vegeta, when Zenkais were shortly introduced afterwards and there was no hint of their existence beforehand, and that Kuririn was mistaken, since he only piped up about it when Vegeta mentioned it. Also, "Gokuu gets stronger after every fierce battle" is kind of a vague statement anyway.

[AlexFili]

Does his battle with Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai qualify as a "near-death" experience?

Goku got a gigantic hole in his chest. If that's not a near-death experience I don't know what is. Characters in anime like Goku, Naruto and Luffy take a ridiculous amount of punishment without dying. In terms of videogames the characters have an empty health bar, or it's so low that it can't be read.

Either way I always thought the whole " fastest in the universe " was complete nonsense for the obvious reasons.

I have a friend who likes Burter a lot, and even he thinks it's a silly thing to say. It's not surprising the DBZ Abridged team made fun of it. Don't forget, Guldo can freeze time, so technically he is faster than Burter (since Burter takes time to move, but Guldo can move in an instant). The three middle tier members of the Ginyu force seem to gravitate towards particular areas of expertise. In my opinion, no two fighters in Dragonball are exactly the same, so it makes sense for their abilities to specialise in certain ways.

[Bussani]

Well okay, maybe not rubbish, but he certainly wasn't as skilled with Ki as Jeice was. Or at the very least, didn't show any knowledge of unique Ki moves (besides Purple Comet). In the videogames for example, he focuses more on speed and physical combat. Of course I realise the games aren't canon and the fact that Burter was killed quickly may have also not shown Burter's true power or abilities.

When people say that ki and battle power are synonymous, they're talking about the size of the ki, rather than how much skill the person has in using it. Scouters measure ki and assign it a number, thus battle power is ki.

Don't forget, Guldo can freeze time, so technically he is faster than Burter (since Burter takes time to move, but Guldo can move in an instant).

Technically, "instant" isn't a speed.

[Mjb1985]

The possible times of Goku getting a zenkai in DB would be perhaps...

Goku at Muscle Tower
Goku vs Piccolo Daimao ( Old )
Goku vs Piccolo Daimao ( Young )
Goku vs Piccolo Ma Junior



I think at least those four times would make sense IMO. He literally couldn't move in all of those instances. Those 4 times for sure in my book. And even his fights with Jackie Chun , Tenshinhan , Tambourine probably would warrant some boost as well IMO...

This would actually make a great thread. Does anyone care to start it?

[Xyex]

But he wasn't close to death, therefore wouldn't have gotten a Zenkai.

And where exactly does one draw the arbitrary line of 'near death'? At what point does a person change from 'not near death' to 'near death'? Beyond this, we see that you don't actually have be anywhere near dead at all to get a zenkai when Goku gets the most massive one ever seen in the series just because he had the stuffing knocked out of him by Vegeta while possessed by Ginyu. Goku wasn't nearing death at all, there, he was just in really bad shape.

So the idea of 'near death power-up' is a misnomer. It is, purely and simply, a recovery power-up. Damage, any damage, can cause at least a small increase. The more extensive the damage (the closer to death) then the more likely the increase will be large.

And even though he was fighting a lot of them, they were still weak goons, yet this granted enough of a boost for Kuririn to notice it. Raditz would be worth at least 240 of those guys.

Except that Goku was a lot weaker then, and so smaller increases of power are more noticiable at that point.

I don't believe Gokuu ever got a Zenkai before his fight with Vegeta, as no power increase from coming close to death (if he ever did, that is) was noted. I don't care what Kuririn said in the Freeza arc, since he wouldn't have been present for any of those occasions and, upon hearing Vegeta's statement, may've just assumed that the reason for Gokuu's incredible power gains after periods of time in which he may or may not have seen him were Zenkais.

Just because no one stopped to go "Oh, Goku's power's increased by 100 points!" after he recovered from the Vegeta battle doesn't mean it didn't happen. He was in far worse shape following that battle than the one against Ginyu, so he certainly got an increase there.

And likely several more during his training on the way to Namek.

His encounter with White was nothing near death; he was just severely injured.

Which, as established by the events of the series, and the arbitrary nature of the line between 'near death' and not, is more than enough to trigger an increase.

[LiamKav]

There's also the Ultra Divine Water. Although Karin expected Goku to get a power-up from it, he still seemed surprised at the result. Maybe the poison in it was enough to count as "near-death" and trigger a power-up instead of/in addition to the one he was expected to get.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But he wasn't close to death, therefore wouldn't have gotten a Zenkai.

And where exactly does one draw the arbitrary line of 'near death'? At what point does a person change from 'not near death' to 'near death'? Beyond this, we see that you don't actually have be anywhere near dead at all to get a zenkai when Goku gets the most massive one ever seen in the series just because he had the stuffing knocked out of him by Vegeta while possessed by Ginyu. Goku wasn't nearing death at all, there, he was just in really bad shape.

So the idea of 'near death power-up' is a misnomer. It is, purely and simply, a recovery power-up. Damage, any damage, can cause at least a small increase. The more extensive the damage (the closer to death) then the more likely the increase will be large.

You're right, the line of "near-death" is pretty arbitray, and even after Vegeta's beating by Recoom, he didn't really look as if he was "near-death". He could still stand and talk fine. I think I might've mentioned in another thread that I don't deny Gokuu may've gotten little Zenkais before getting whopping great ones after his fight with Vegeta.

And even though he was fighting a lot of them, they were still weak goons, yet this granted enough of a boost for Kuririn to notice it. Raditz would be worth at least 240 of those guys.

Except that Goku was a lot weaker then, and so smaller increases of power are more noticiable at that point.

Are they, though? Is that ever supported in the source material itself? It's just that this theory is always thrown out, yet no-one can give me any evidence of this being the case.

I don't believe Gokuu ever got a Zenkai before his fight with Vegeta, as no power increase from coming close to death (if he ever did, that is) was noted. I don't care what Kuririn said in the Freeza arc, since he wouldn't have been present for any of those occasions and, upon hearing Vegeta's statement, may've just assumed that the reason for Gokuu's incredible power gains after periods of time in which he may or may not have seen him were Zenkais.

Just because no one stopped to go "Oh, Goku's power's increased by 100 points!" after he recovered from the Vegeta battle doesn't mean it didn't happen. He was in far worse shape following that battle than the one against Ginyu, so he certainly got an increase there.

And likely several more during his training on the way to Namek.

Well, obviously, apart from Kame-sennin and Yajirobe (the latter of which may or may not have honed ki-sensing skills enough to sense such a power boost from Gokuu anyway), none of the main cast were there to see Gokuu after he'd healed from his injuries with Senzu and subsequently flitted off to Dr. Brief's spaceship. Gohan, Kuririn, Blooma and Vegeta were on Namek and dealing with Freeza and co., while Piccolo and co. were dead.

I don't doubt that Gokuu got a Zenkai after the fight with Vegeta and after the fight with Ginyuu. But beforehand, I'm a little bit iffy. Once again, I don't deny that it happened, and it probably did. But not to the "in-your-face" extent of the Freeza arc. It was, after all, a big ol' convenient plot device that dropped off after Super Saiyan was introduced and the Cell arc began, making a brief comeback towards the end when Cell needed a power boost to be a match for a newly-SS2 Gohan.

His encounter with White was nothing near death; he was just severely injured.

Which, as established by the events of the series, and the arbitrary nature of the line between 'near death' and not, is more than enough to trigger an increase.

Perhaps. See above.

Actually, funnily enough, I do have pre-Z Gokuu making little gains after numerous fights, but I do that for Kuririn and Tenshinhan too. But with Gokuu's, they get a little bigger each time, which might reflect his talent for improvement and/or the possibility of small Zenkais.

In a nutshell, yeah, I think that Gokuu got Zenkais before his fight with Vegeta, but small ones that were, so to speak, wrapped up in the other, potentially more beneficial gains that he got through training with Karin and Kami. I do wish that Toriyama had touched on this a bit more, though, perhaps in the form of little lines, as JulieYBM suggested.