DB Fighting Games: Overall good or not quite what you want?

[DNA]

But Sinestro, a Sparking game with Raging Blast graphics is what Raging Blast already is.
What they should do is start with smaller rosters and expand each character so they can feel more unique and only then do they progressively add more characters using the same process, it's what Capcom has been doing for Street Fighter and what SNK has been doing for King of Fighters for decades. You don't start with an immense roster, you gradually add characters, and we, as fans, will happily swallow it because we do want more characters but at the same time we want them done right, not washed down versions that feel all the same.

They had an opportunity to do that with Raging Blast but simply didn't, they basically said fuck it and started all over the same, repeating the exact same thing they did with Sparking only with HD graphics. And the result is that the sales dropped and they still don't care, so they've been downgrading the games to the point that we now have that pathetic Kinetic game.
Instead of investing in the franchise they're looking for a quick buck. They are telling us, as fandom, that we are not worth the trouble; that at the end of the day we are only worth the effort for a quick buck. And by still buying the games, we are proving them right.

[Sinestro]

But Sinestro, a Sparking game with Raging Blast graphics is what Raging Blast already is.
What they should do is start with smaller rosters and expand each character so they can feel more unique and only then do they progressively add more characters using the same process, it's what Capcom has been doing for Street Fighter and what SNK has been doing for King of Fighters for decades. You don't start with an immense roster, you gradually add characters, and we, as fans, will happily swallow it because we do want more characters but at the same time we want them done right, not washed down versions that feel all the same.


They had an opportunity to do that with Raging Blast but simply didn't, they basically said fuck it and started all over the same, repeating the exact same thing they did with Sparking only with HD graphics. And the result is that the sales dropped and they still don't care, so they've been downgrading the games to the point that we now have that pathetic Kinetic game.

The reason I don't equate Raging Blast as being Sparking is because of them scaling back and repeating. But that's my hangup. You're right, they are essentially the same thing.

But I was just talking about my perfect game, which would basically be an unscaled Raging Blast. But I prefer to think of it as Sparking! because... well, my hangup.

[DNA]

Whilst I do understand you, the core of the Sparking engine is faulty from the beginning, they haven't fixed that yet, they are simply preoccupied with shinier graphics and more characters/stages/outfits, meaning, more content.

It seems we have three main factions of this fandom in regards to this subject. Those like me who really do want a game with better quality over quantity; those who prefer to have quantity over quality, even though I really can't understand why anyone would prefer this in any aspect of life; and those who don't give a rat's ass about the any game in the first place.
Now the thing is, even if we do separate things equality and say each faction is exactly a third of the franchise, the first faction is still stronger, because there are also those who, even though they might not be fans of Dragon Ball, see the potential in the franchise for a good game, and are extremely sadden by what we've been having for decades. I'm talking about the fighting game community who throws our name in the mud and holds us directly responsible for the games we've been having.

If the majority of us simply stops buying the games, the sales will go down to the point we're it's no longer profitable. When that happens Spike will have two options, do or don't. Either do build a better game or give up on the franchise. And believe me that eventually some other company, possibly and hopefully more capable will pick it up, especially since there's a new boom in interest. I'd rather not have any game at all for a few years then have shit being shoved on my face yearly.

[Sinestro]

Whilst I do understand you, the core of the Sparking engine is faulty from the beginning, they haven't fixed that yet, they are simply preoccupied with shinier graphics and more characters/stages/outfits, meaning, more content.

It seems we have three main factions of this fandom in regards to this subject. Those like me who really do want a game with better quality over quantity; those who prefer to have quantity over quality, even though I really can't understand why anyone would prefer this in any aspect of life; and those who don't give a rat's ass about the any game in the first place.

I'm definitely not in the third.

As for the other two, for me,Sparking Meteor is the end-all, be-all for me. Fun and endlessly re-playable, despite it's many flaws. It's quality enough for me.

On the other hand, Budokai 3 is also a favorite. It doesn't have as many characters, but it's just as fun. And I love the Dragon World story mode. Again, it's quality enough for me.

My standards might be lower than yours. But that's okay. I don't particularly care for most fighters.

If the majority of us simply stops buying the games, the sales will go down to the point we're it's no longer profitable. When that happens Spike will have two options, do or don't. Either do build a better game or give up on the franchise. And believe me that eventually some other company, possibly and hopefully more capable will pick it up, especially since there's a new boom in interest. I'd rather not have any game at all for a few years then have shit being shoved on my face yearly.

Agreed here. I'm certainly not buying any games until they finally shape up.

[InfernalVegito]

It seems we have three main factions of this fandom in regards to this subject. Those like me who really do want a game with better quality over quantity; those who prefer to have quantity over quality, even though I really can't understand why anyone would prefer this in any aspect of life; and those who don't give a rat's ass about the any game in the first place.

You forgot those who want both. But yeah main.

[mysticboy]

I think people need to understand that the Sparking (hell, even the Budokai) games have never sot out to be these deep, Tekken/VF-like fighters. Just fighting games designed for fans of the series to play as and against their favorite characters from the show. The Sparking and Budokai games do this quite well, but in different ways. I think they should be viewed differently from one another. It's like using Gran Turismo to set the standard for Mario Kart. Same genre, but unfair to judge them in the same vein.

[Rocketman]

those who prefer to have quantity over quality, even though I really can't understand why anyone would prefer this in any aspect of life

I don't like fighting games. I'm not going to buy a game with five characters who are ~super unique~ on the off-chance that seven games down the line they'll have half of BT3's roster.

[NECPS]

They tried to turn the game more of a strategic fighting game with ultimate blast. I like that. No one can say that its all about smashing buttons. They are in the right path. They just didn´t made it quite right. The first sparking game was a total failure too. Also, they didn´t gave up at that time.

By quality I mean what everyone says about how street fighter / tekken is so good with characters that are really different. And I certanly don´t want to see that in a dragon ball game, for whatever reason. Only slightly differences.

[DNA]

You forgot those who want both. But yeah main.

How can you both want quality over quantity and quantity over quality? One invalidates the other. Unless you are saying you want quality and quantity in equal portions, which I find hard to believe, you either pick one or the other.

I think people need to understand that the Sparking (hell, even the Budokai) games have never sot out to be these deep, Tekken/VF-like fighters. Just fighting games designed for fans of the series to play as and against their favorite characters from the show. The Sparking and Budokai games do this quite well, but in different ways. I think they should be viewed differently from one another. It's like using Gran Turismo to set the standard for Mario Kart. Same genre, but unfair to judge them in the same vein.

I'm not even discussing that anymore. I'm not saying they should make it more like a proper competitive fighting game. They should simple MAKE IT BETTER, because as I stated time and time again, the game as a faulty engine to begin with, even for the goal set in the first place.
When you have an engine that allows bodies to stand vertically on diagonal planes, objects to go through each other and you don't even have a simple walk stance and make every single character float, you got yourself a big problem with your engine, and those three are just the tip of the shit iceberg that is that engine.
A good fighting game doesn't need to be a proper versus to be good. Look at Super Smash Bros. series for example.

I'm not going to buy a game with five characters who are ~super unique~ on the off-chance that seven games down the line they'll have half of BT3's roster.

Then don't, wait for the seventh game and buy that one. That's the point I'm trying to make. If you want quantity, wait for the game that will eventually have what you want. Or do you feel the actual need to buy games yearly? Or simply buy every single game that comes out? And you don't need to go 'five characters' to do that. Super Dragon Ball Z had twelve characters on the arcade version and they added six more for the home version, because they went the route I described, launch a game with a few characters and then progressively add more. Eighteen characters is quite a nice roster for a first game in a series. And don't forget that the Sparking series boasts a big number because they count transformations and ages as different characters as well. All in all, we are not even talking about your taste in fighting games but your taste in games in general, are you telling me you don't care if the game is good as long as it has a butt load of characters in? Whatever floats your boat man, but I really don't get that. If in order to get more characters I have to progressively sacrifice the quality of the game, I prefer not having them.

They tried to turn the game more of a strategic fighting game with ultimate blast. I like that. No one can say that its all about smashing buttons. They are in the right path. They just didn´t made it quite right. The first sparking game was a total failure too. Also, they didn´t gave up at that time.

No, it is now a giant quick time event in which you have to press buttons at the right time, you know, one of the most criticized game play choices across all genres.

By quality I mean what everyone says about how street fighter / tekken is so good with characters that are really different. And I certanly don´t want to see that in a dragon ball game, for whatever reason. Only slightly differences.

So again, you'd rather have a million freaking characters who play all the same then having them actually feel unique, you know, like they are in the actual series. The characters are unique in the series, with their unique styles, so why not translate that into the game? Styles are not just super moves you know?

[DBZ Mick]

I thought BT3/Sparking Meteor had plenty of quality (basically the fan-service), but they did go for more quantity, and the game didn't really have lasting appeal per say. I also think there was some small, mind you, small differences between characters (I'm no fighting game buff, just starting out on SFIV 3-D and still learning cancels in Budokai)

Now, to finally try out Infinite World which I've heard is the best of the Budokai/Z games.

[InfernalVegito]

You forgot those who want both. But yeah main.

How can you both want quality over quantity and quantity over quality? One invalidates the other. Unless you are saying you want quality and quantity in equal portions, which I find hard to believe, you either pick one or the other.

Yes I meant quality and quantity. I don't know if both can exist in equal proportions but both are important. See UT as mentioned several times.

Additionally, can you explain this:

[...]the game as a faulty engine to begin with, even for the goal set in the first place..When you have an engine that allows bodies to stand vertically on diagonal planes, objects to go through each other and you don't even have a simple walk stance and make every single character float, you got yourself a big problem with your engine, and those three are just the tip of the shit iceberg that is that engine.

I don't understand what the problem is because in my humble opinion the game does exactly what I want from a game that simulates the show. It's fast-paced, has all characters, techniques, stages and costumes.

[DNA]

I thought BT3/Sparking Meteor had plenty of quality (basically the fan-service)

Fan service does not translate into quality of the game itself. The game should be able to hold his own instead of surviving just for the fans.

Yes I meant quality and quantity. I don't know if both can exist in equal proportions but both are important.

So you class a large quantity and high quality as equally important. Fair enough, but the world doesn't really work that way.

See UT as mentioned several times.

What about it? It doesn't have a large roster and it isn't a good game. It was quite criticized. What's your point?

Additionally, can you explain this:

[...]the game as a faulty engine to begin with, even for the goal set in the first place..When you have an engine that allows bodies to stand vertically on diagonal planes, objects to go through each other and you don't even have a simple walk stance and make every single character float, you got yourself a big problem with your engine, and those three are just the tip of the shit iceberg that is that engine.

I don't understand what the problem is because in my humble opinion the game does exactly what I want from a game that simulates the show. It's fast-paced, has all characters, techniques, stages and costumes.

My friend, if you don't understand and say you have no problem with clear problems in the engine, what do you want me to explain to you? You really don't see objects going through each other as a problem that needs to be fixed? What, do you see Piccolo's cape going through his arm and you are okay with that? You see no problem whatsoever? A model falls on a diagonal plane and stays vertical and that's perfectly fine with you? Seriously, what more do you want me to explain to you? Feet go into the ground, fallen (dead) models have parts of their body going into the ground. I've seen it all whilst playing the games in this shitty engine. I can't possibly simplify this anymore than I already am.

[DBZ Mick]

Fan service does not translate into quality of the game itself. The game should be able to hold his own instead of surviving just for the fans.

I find that subjective. With the BT/Sparking games I play or played them because I liked that they were a Dragonball simulator of sorts. And the fan-service was quality for me in BT3/Sparking Meteor- having a large variety of characters, levels for example. Another was that practically everything you could a beam struggle with which was pretty cool. Having a Genki Dama struggle was kinda novel.

The Budokai games had the benefit of both- being great Dragonball games and fighters. And having just started IW, I'm glad to say it has everything I didn't like about B3 removed and lots of welcome new additions that help the game rather then hinder it.

[DNA]

It's not subjective dude. It is what it is. Fan service is fan service. There is good fan service, there is bad fan service. You enjoy the fan service that the Sparking series and the Budokai series have given you. The overall quality of the game, as in how the game feels, how the game plays (its game play), how the game works (its engine) should not be overshadowed by fan service.

I'm starting to think that most of you guys wouldn't mind having one model with a million different skins representing all the characters and all outfits.

[Saiga]

I'm starting to think that most of you guys wouldn't mind having one model with a million different skins representing all the characters and all outfits.

If we're going to reduce each others' arguments to ridiculousness, then I think your ideal game would be where the only character is Goku and they put all their resources towards his moveset.

[DNA]

I'm starting to think that most of you guys wouldn't mind having one model with a million different skins representing all the characters and all outfits.

If we're going to reduce each others' arguments to ridiculousness, then I think your ideal game would be where the only character is Goku and they put all their resources towards his moveset.

I'm sorry but my response is a logical answer for all the comments of 'I don't care about uniqueness as long as I have all the characters'. If you don't care about uniqueness then what is the point of having different models in the first place?
Your comment follows no logical pattern from my posts though. I've defended on having unique characters with a decent solid roster which would be progressively expanded.

Furthermore, the Sparking engine basically uses the same model, only altering it's size when applicable. So yeah, my comment is moot because that already is a reality and you seem to enjoy it.

[DBZ Mick]

The overall quality of the game, as in how the game feels, how the game plays (its game play), how the game works (its engine) should not be overshadowed by fan service.

And enjoyed how BT3/Sparking Meteor feels, plays and works. I also stated above though that I still felt they still went for more quantity- fan service- rather than refining the actual gameplay.

I'm starting to think that most of you guys wouldn't mind having one model with a million different skins representing all the characters and all outfits.

Nope, Legacy of Goku II is my favourite Dragonball game mainly because it has more than just fighting to do, I like all the quests etc.

[DNA]

The overall quality of the game, as in how the game feels, how the game plays (its game play), how the game works (its engine) should not be overshadowed by fan service.

And enjoyed how BT3/Sparking Meteor feels, plays and works. I also stated above though that I still felt they still went for more quantity- fan service- rather than refining the actual gameplay.

There ya go, they did. Although I have to disagree with you on how it plays and works. Like I stated many times over, the characters basically play all the same which makes the gameplay boring and repetitive. And as I have explained, also many times over, the game doesn't work very well because the engine itself is broken at the core, the framing doesn't work very well. Certain things, whilst visible to us as 'objects', have no frame in game, which causes them to go through things. That is a very pathetic flaw that shows no care or polish in my opinion, especially because it persists to this day, when we're seven games in the series. I risk myself with that comment since I haven't played Ultimate Tenkaichi nor Kinetic, but I very much doubt that was fixed.

[InfernalVegito]

So you class a large quantity and high quality as equally important. Fair enough, but the world doesn't really work that way.

Yes. But my overarching point was that one shouldn't see it black and white. There are people who want both elements to be executed well.

What about it? It doesn't have a large roster and it isn't a good game. It was quite criticized. What's your point?

Yes and why isn't it a good game? Because it consists of just QTEs. No choice for the player anymore. So even if they just made this game concentrating solely on a new gameplay, it doesn't mean it's going to be good either.

My friend, if you don't understand and say you have no problem with clear problems in the engine, what do you want me to explain to you? You really don't see objects going through each other as a problem that needs to be fixed? What, do you see Piccolo's cape going through his arm and you are okay with that? You see no problem whatsoever? A model falls on a diagonal plane and stays vertical and that's perfectly fine with you? Seriously, what more do you want me to explain to you? Feet go into the ground, fallen (dead) models have parts of their body going into the ground. I've seen it all whilst playing the games in this shitty engine. I can't possibly simplify this anymore than I already am.

Ah okay gotcha. You mean clipping errors. Yeah these are retarded mistakes, but none of which aren't fixable. That doesn't mean the actual game engine sucks. They probably just don't care.

Furthermore, if the game sets out to be just the simulation of the show, then why would one criticize it for not being a deep fighting game. It's like buying a bike and critizing it for not being able to drive it like a car.

[DBZ Mick]

the framing doesn't work very well. Certain things, whilst visible to us as 'objects', have no frame in game, which causes them to go through things. That is a very pathetic flaw that shows no care or polish in my opinion, especially because it persists to this day, when we're seven games in the series.

I agree with this- haven't played any of the Raging Blast games though or UT or the Kinect game. But while it may have annoyed me a little, it wasn't game breaking and I mainly only noticed it wth SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks hair.

And as I have explained, also many times over, the game doesn't work very well because the engine itself is broken at the core

I agree in many ways, there should have been more punishment- you can teleport for free and can easily get out of many ultimate attacks this way, also a lot of characters have broken movesets and so on. But I still found myself enjoying it because it captured the feel of the anime mostly right.

Like I stated many times over, the characters basically play all the same which makes the gameplay boring and repetitive

True but it was fun seeing some different ultimates and rushes for most characters. Although I didn't like the slapping on of Super Explosive Wave for a lot of characters.