Base Saiyans and Freeza

[TheGmGoken]

I think Base saiyans are weaker then Freeza. Freeza is 120 million at best right. If you think of it thhis way it might change your mind. Now these are just my guesses so don't quote me for these being the real power levels.

Highest Base Saiyan in Freeza Arc - Goku - 3 million(Daizenshuu)
Highest Base Saiyan in Mecha Freeza - Goku - I'll take an educated guess and say around 3.5 million - 6.7 million maybe 7 million.
Highest base Saiyan in Android Arc - Vegeta - 10 - 20 million.
Highest Base saiyan in Cell games - Gohan - 30 - 50 million
Highest NON FUSION Base Saiyan in Buu arc - Goku - 52 - 55 million due to Vegeta saying SSJ2Goku was slightly stronger then Gohan at CG.
Highest Base Saiyan in YO SON GOKU AND FRIENDS RETURN - Goku - 64 million
Highest Base Saiyan when CALM in Battle of Gods - 67 - 77 million.

All these power levels once in SSJ form is easily into the billions(minus Freeza Goku). Ao it would come to no surprise that
the base saiyans will need SSJ to beat Freeza. It can be argued that Avo and Cavo are Freeza's power but Tarble only knew Freeza's base form. BUT when Advo and Cavo fused Goku had to turn SSJ to defeat him which means Advocavo got just as strong or slightly weaker/stronger then 100% Freeza.

[TheGmGoken]

I really would've liked to have seen a battle between Gohan and Super Perfect Cell. Gohan was stronger, but seeing Cell actually fight with all that new power would've been better than just seeing it used for a beam struggle.

I'm kinda surprised the anime didn't do that. They dragged out the Freeza and Pure Buu fights, but the one fight that would have been improved by adding more stuff was left virtually untouched.

I think Gohan got the least filler out of every main character.....silly Toei. When filler is needed they don't use it.

[Godo]

I believe that after the Freeza arc the base power of the Saiyans didn't increase by much, hence the need to become accustomed to the SSJ form and perfecting their use of it.
And when they had their encounter with the cyborgs, they realized that only training wouldn't do them any more good, so they had to reach a form beyond SSJ.
If training made such huge changes in their base levels, the SSJ multiplier would apply too, thus smaller gains would make a larger difference.
But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So the Saiyans had to reach for new forms and new ways to accustom to the SSJ form to be able to progress.

So personally I don't believe that their base levels breached the 10,000,000 mark.

[TheGmGoken]

I believe that after the Freeza arc the base power of the Saiyans didn't increase by much, hence the need to become accustomed to the SSJ form and perfecting their use of it.
And when they had their encounter with the cyborgs, they realized that only training wouldn't do them any more good, so they had to reach a form beyond SSJ.
If training made such huge changes in their base levels, the SSJ multiplier would apply too, thus smaller gains would make a larger difference.
But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So the Saiyans had to reach for new forms and new ways to accustom to the SSJ form to be able to progress.

So personally I don't believe that their base levels breached the 10,000,000 mark.

That's a good theory as well. I prefer mine. But yours is great.

[Kamiccolo9]

I believe that after the Freeza arc the base power of the Saiyans didn't increase by much, hence the need to become accustomed to the SSJ form and perfecting their use of it.
And when they had their encounter with the cyborgs, they realized that only training wouldn't do them any more good, so they had to reach a form beyond SSJ.
If training made such huge changes in their base levels, the SSJ multiplier would apply too, thus smaller gains would make a larger difference.
But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So the Saiyans had to reach for new forms and new ways to accustom to the SSJ form to be able to progress.

So personally I don't believe that their base levels breached the 10,000,000 mark.

I really like this as well. Very interesting. I would imagine that the largest gains in base would have been during the training in the Room and Space and Time, as that's the only time we see a specific form grow much stronger. Were you thinking that as well?

[Draken]

I believe that after the Freeza arc the base power of the Saiyans didn't increase by much, hence the need to become accustomed to the SSJ form and perfecting their use of it.
And when they had their encounter with the cyborgs, they realized that only training wouldn't do them any more good, so they had to reach a form beyond SSJ.
If training made such huge changes in their base levels, the SSJ multiplier would apply too, thus smaller gains would make a larger difference.
But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So the Saiyans had to reach for new forms and new ways to accustom to the SSJ form to be able to progress.

So personally I don't believe that their base levels breached the 10,000,000 mark.

From the summary, Beer's says

However, he thinks Goku as he is now would not be capable of defeating Freeza, but apparently he can by powering up by transforming into a Super Saiyan, and yet he has never heard of Super Saiyan God.

There's a lot of different ways to interpret this, but I take that as saying Goku is pretty close to Freeza in base, so it's hard for Beers to tell if Goku could or could not defeat Beers in base. I have no trouble believing he could be 90-100m.

[dbzfan7]

Gohan : GOHAN IS MAD
GOHAN SMASH
*cell gets knocked into ground
GOHAN KAMEHAMEHA
*cell obliterated

Over in a minute.

LOL.

A minute was me being generous as it is more like 15 seconds. But if you want to believe that go ahead.

[Godo]

Yeah I believe that the largest gains in base post Freeza arc came from the ROSAT training.
Those tree years before the arrival of the Androids were spent pretty much getting used to the SSJ form and I don't believe there were much gains in base since they trained at Earth. Vegeta's training was pretty much attaining the SsJ form and getting used to it.

During the ROSAT training, though, they had much better training partners, and also, a full year of intense and uninterrupted training. Not only that, they achieved new forms of the SSj.

[Draken]

Gohan : GOHAN IS MAD
GOHAN SMASH
*cell gets knocked into ground
GOHAN KAMEHAMEHA
*cell obliterated

Over in a minute.

LOL.

A minute was me being generous as it is more like 15 seconds. But if you want to believe that go ahead.

You know how long a minute lasts in DBZ right? They can fight for hours our time in even 15 seconds

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah I believe that the largest gains in base post Freeza arc came from the ROSAT training.
Those tree years before the arrival of the Androids were spent pretty much getting used to the SSJ form and I don't believe there were much gains in base since they trained at Earth. Vegeta's training was pretty much attaining the SsJ form and getting used to it.

During the ROSAT training, though, they had much better training partners, and also, a full year of intense and uninterrupted training. Not only that, they achieved new forms of the SSj.

Yes. I really like this theory. If I ever get around to finishing my power levels list, I will probably base it on this idea. What kind of multipliers do you use for SSJ Grades 2 and 3? I use a 65x and 80x base myself.

[dbzfan7]

You know how long a minute lasts in DBZ right? They can fight for hours our time in even 15 seconds

I said 15 seconds, not 15 Freeza seconds.

Even so I doubt a rage boost would be enough. SSJ2 is what he needed. Goku see's a whole new form and isn't surprised or awed in the slightest. Every time a new strong power surfaces everyone is in awe. But this one time Goku isn't surprised if he only expected an SSJ rage boost. That to me means he had to have seen a glimpse of SSJ2 Gohan.

[Draken]

You know how long a minute lasts in DBZ right? They can fight for hours our time in even 15 seconds

I said 15 seconds, not 15 Freeza seconds.

Even so I doubt a rage boost would be enough. SSJ2 is what he needed. Goku see's a whole new form and isn't surprised or awed in the slightest. Every time a new strong power surfaces everyone is in awe. But this one time Goku isn't surprised if he only expected an SSJ rage boost. That to me means he had to have seen a glimpse of SSJ2 Gohan.

Well what I'm saying is he expected SSJ2 Gohan to be his rage boost. But he doesn't know it's SSJ2, he just knows it's a rage boost that Gohan gets, and was depending on his hidden potential to be brought out with his anger.

And psht shoulda been more specific

[dbzfan7]

Well what I'm saying is he expected SSJ2 Gohan to be his rage boost. But he doesn't know it's SSJ2, he just knows it's a rage boost that Gohan gets, and was depending on his hidden potential to be brought out with his anger.

And psht shoulda been more specific

There is no way he could expect Gohan to transform into a whole new form of Super Saiyan and not be surprised. We are talking the next state of Super Saiyan that perfectly surpasses SSJ in every way, and Goku is not surprised or in awe in the slightest. This goes beyond any normal rage boost. If he was expecting Gohan to just get angry, he should be in awe if Gohan took it way farther then that, but he is not. He wouldn't be in awe if he got a glimpse. Him seeing a glimpse of SSJ2 doesn't contradict the manga, but further implicates why he takes training so easily after the ROSAT and has complete faith in Gohan.

[Draken]

Well what I'm saying is he expected SSJ2 Gohan to be his rage boost. But he doesn't know it's SSJ2, he just knows it's a rage boost that Gohan gets, and was depending on his hidden potential to be brought out with his anger.

And psht shoulda been more specific

There is no way he could expect Gohan to transform into a whole new form of Super Saiyan and not be surprised. We are talking the next state of Super Saiyan that perfectly surpasses SSJ in every way, and Goku is not surprised or in awe in the slightest. This goes beyond any normal rage boost. If he was expecting Gohan to just get angry, he should be in awe if Gohan took it way farther then that, but he is not. He wouldn't be in awe if he got a glimpse. Him seeing a glimpse of SSJ2 doesn't contradict the manga, but further implicates why he takes training so easily after the ROSAT and has complete faith in Gohan.

The thing is he doesn't even know SSJ2 exists. I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm arguing that Goku didn't expect SSJ2 in any way, shape, or form, because as far as he was concerned it was merely Gohan releasing his anger and potential. He doesn't know SSJ2 exists. He doesn't even think SSJ2 is SSJ2. He called it an Ascended Saiyan 7 years later. At the time, he's not surprised because he was confident his son would bring out his potential and get mad and rape-stomp Cell.

[TheGmGoken]

Well what I'm saying is he expected SSJ2 Gohan to be his rage boost. But he doesn't know it's SSJ2, he just knows it's a rage boost that Gohan gets, and was depending on his hidden potential to be brought out with his anger.

And psht shoulda been more specific

There is no way he could expect Gohan to transform into a whole new form of Super Saiyan and not be surprised. We are talking the next state of Super Saiyan that perfectly surpasses SSJ in every way, and Goku is not surprised or in awe in the slightest. This goes beyond any normal rage boost. If he was expecting Gohan to just get angry, he should be in awe if Gohan took it way farther then that, but he is not. He wouldn't be in awe if he got a glimpse. Him seeing a glimpse of SSJ2 doesn't contradict the manga, but further implicates why he takes training so easily after the ROSAT and has complete faith in Gohan.

Didn't Goku jaw drop when Gohan transformed?

[dbzfan7]

The thing is he doesn't even know SSJ2 exists. I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm arguing that Goku didn't expect SSJ2 in any way, shape, or form, because as far as he was concerned it was merely Gohan releasing his anger and potential. He doesn't know SSJ2 exists. He doesn't even think SSJ2 is SSJ2. He called it an Ascended Saiyan 7 years later. At the time, he's not surprised because he was confident his son would bring out his potential and get mad and rape-stomp Cell.

Why would Goku put his faith in Gohan if he didn't show anything in the ROSAT other then surpassing him. Even surpassing him isn't enough to beat Cell. Showing a glimpse of SSJ2 would cement Goku's thought for having Gohan fight Cell instead of taking a big risk that can easily flop since rage boosts can become anything. Seeing it in the time chamber briefly he would have felt that power Gohan had, of course its only a glimpse so he wouldn't know what it was other then Gohan's hidden power releasing. I think Gohan showing his hidden power release in the ROSAT shows why Goku put his faith in Gohan. I can't see Goku having never felt Gohan's hidden power at that point not even slightly impressed by SSJ2 Gohan. Its a dragon ball tradition to have everyone gush about how awesome a strong ki is, but this one time, Goku doesn't.

Didn't Goku jaw drop when Gohan transformed?

No it did not. Goku only smiled and was never impressed by SSJ2 Gohan in the slightest.

[TheGmGoken]

He called it an Ascended Saiyan 7 years later. At the time, he's not surprised because he was confident his son would bring out his potential and get mad and rape-stomp Cell.

That was an english dub error sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-FHHr1NnI. Goku said it's a form beyond ssj. SSJ2. NEVER did he say Ascended SSJ in accurate scripts. and original audio

[Draken]

That was an english dub error sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-FHHr1NnI. Goku said it's a form beyond ssj. SSJ2. NEVER did he say Ascended SSJ in accurate scripts. and original audio

Ascend = Beyond to me. Ascend = to climb, to go up, etc. Beyond is past the level, same as go up to me. Beyond SSJ, Ascended SSJ = Climb above SSJ. Sir.

[TheGmGoken]

Didn't Goku jaw drop when Gohan transformed?

No it did not. Goku only smiled and was never impressed by SSJ2 Gohan in the slightest.

That face looks shocked and surprised to me. He's not smiling.

[dbzfan7]

That face looks shocked and surprised to me. He's not smiling.

The anime portrays it differently. In the manga Goku notices a large Ki, but then smiles on the next page.