Introducing the younger generation to DB

[ABED]

Swiper from Dora The Explorer and Jesse James are both thieves, but you don't see people lobbying for the former to get an in-show punishment

"Vegeta, no killing. Vegeta, no killing. Vegeta, no killing!"
"Aw, man"

Love the Fountainhead reference.

[rereboy]

It's a show for 6-15 years old boys.

There's no age limit for Dragon Ball.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's a show for 6-15 years old boys.

There's no age limit for Dragon Ball.

This is the targeted age in Japan though.

[rereboy]

It's a show for 6-15 years old boys.

There's no age limit for Dragon Ball.

This is the targeted age in Japan though.

If you really want to define an age for dragon ball, then that's not it either:

Shōnen, shonen, or shounen manga (少年漫画 shōnen manga?) is manga marketed to a male audience aged roughly 13 and up. The Kanji characters (少年) literally mean "few" and "year", respectively, where the characters (漫画) generally mean "comic". The complete phrase literally means "young person's comic" or simply "boys' comic". Shōnen manga has been said to be the most popular form of manga

in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dnen_manga

And, as you should know, Dragon Ball is very much so shonen manga.

Personally I prefer to say that its main focus of marketing is teenage males and leave at that. Also, defining an upper limit of age to something, like you did, doesn't make sense.

[ABED]

Of course it makes sense to put a limit on the target demographic. It's basic marketing.

[rereboy]

Of course it makes sense to put a limit on the target demographic. It's basic marketing.

Not really. Basic marketing is to sell to the widest range of people possible.

That's why, generally, entertainment products say "for ages 10 and up" or something like that instead of having a top limit. There's really no reason for the product to have an upper limit since there are no concerns regarding content towards adults, unlike there are for kids and young people (violence, sex, hazards,...), and the lower limit already gives you an idea of the target audience.

So why would the product or the people selling the product purposely state "only for people from 10 to 18"? From a marketing point of view by doing this the product itself is needlessly limiting itself to a narrower group of people when its main interest is to sell to the widest range of people.

Why would the product go out of its way to, from a marketing point of view, alienate a 20 year old who might be interested in the product? Or a 30 year old? Or a 90 year old? Unless there are specific reasons to do so, which might concern the kind of product that we are talking about, it wouldn't make sense to do so. And shonen manga has no specific reason to limit itself like that.

Therefore, it doesn't make sense from a marketing point of view and it also doesn't make sense outside the world of marketing because old age, by itself, is not a determining factor on whether someone enjoys a product or not.

[ABED]

Of course it makes sense to put a limit on the target demographic. It's basic marketing.

Not really. Basic marketing is to sell to the widest range of people possible.

That's why, generally, entertainment products say "for ages 10 and up" or something like that instead of having a top limit. There's really no reason for the product to have an upper limit since there are no concerns regarding content towards adults, unlike there are for kids and young people (violence, sex, hazards,...), and the lower limit already gives you an idea of the target audience.

So why would the product or the people selling the product purposely state "only for people from 10 to 18"? From a marketing point of view by doing this the product itself is needlessly limiting itself to a narrower group of people when its main interest is to sell to the widest range of people.

Why would the product go out of its way to, from a marketing point of view, alienate a 20 year old who might be interested in the product? Or a 30 year old? Or a 90 year old? Unless there are specific reasons to do so, which might concern the kind of product that we are talking about, it wouldn't make sense to do so. And shonen manga has no specific reason to limit itself like that.

Therefore, it doesn't make sense from a marketing point of view and it also doesn't make sense outside the world of marketing because old age, by itself, is not a determining factor on whether someone enjoys a product or not.

The Ages 10 and up is about who it's suitable for.

And no, basic marketing isn't simply going after the widest range possible. You only have so much money in a budget, so why spend it on a group that isn't likely to buy or watch a product? I'm sure there are people in their 50s that enjoy Dragon Ball, and even women but what do you think is likely to bring a greater return, advertising on website and channels watched by teens, or going after every single segment?

Take a marketing class and they will cover these topics.

[rereboy]

Yeah, nothing you said contradicted what I said... By not imposing an upper limit of age they are not sacrificing their main focus group, they are simply not limiting their reach to just that group. You didn't demonstrate that there is a point in establishing a upper limit of acceptable age from a marketing point of view (or any other) for most products, including shonen manga, at all. That is self-evident by the mere fact that hardly anyone markets a product by imposing or establishing such an upper limit while marketing it.

But still I should take marketing classes, maybe then I'll be really smart and educated and then naturally I'll agree with you... And in case you can't tell, that was sarcasm because that one sentence from you was one of the most obnoxious things I've ever read in this forum. From now on I will make sure I keep away from you at all times.

[ABED]

Yeah, nothing you said contradicted what I said... By not imposing an upper limit of age they are not sacrificing their main focus group, they are simply not limiting their reach to just that group. You didn't demonstrate that there is a point in establishing a upper limit of acceptable age from a marketing point of view (or any other) for most products, including shonen manga, at all. That is self-evident by the mere fact that hardly anyone markets a product by imposing or establishing such an upper limit while marketing it.

But still I should take marketing classes, maybe then I'll be really smart and educated and then naturally I'll agree with you... And in case you can't tell, that was sarcasm because that one sentence from you was one of the most obnoxious things I've ever read in this forum. From now on I will make sure I keep away from you at all times.

They aren't imposing it. They just aren't targeting. I never said anything about imposing an acceptable age range, that's your mistake. Shonen series have a typical age range. Of course there are outliers, but the marketers' resources are best spent on targeting their typical reader/watcher. That doesn't mean they don't care about anyone outside that range. So yes, it did contradict what you wrote. The "T for Teen" or "10 and up" are ratings. It's like Rated PG or PG-13. It's not the target market.

Sorry that it came off as smug, but it is very basic marketing that you don't go after every group. I should have written, "I think you would find a marketing class interesting and informative, I highly suggest it." I wrote that because I think your comment about going after every segment comes off as ignorant.

[rereboy]

They aren't imposing it. They just aren't targeting. I never said anything about imposing an acceptable age range, that's your mistake.

I've been always talking about imposing a limit, establishing a limit, saying that a certain age was no longer proper for a product. That's what establishing an upper limit of age for a product does. As such, I was saying that establishing such an upper limit, like DBZGTKOSDH did, doesn't make and I pointed it out in this topic.

Then you came and disagreed with what I was saying.

Following your post I responded to you further elaborating on what I said, giving depth and detail to what I meant.

You disagreed further, stating that marketing focuses on the group most likely to buy the product (something that I never denied or disagreed with) and then you proceeded to state that I should take marketing classes.

Once again I further elaborated on what I meant, disagreeing with you, pointing it out to you that what you were talking about wasn't something that was against what I meant and also pointing out to you how I didn't like your sentence about me taking marketing classes.

And now... You are saying that I was the one that made a mistake. That I was the one that interpreted wrong. Not you. Me. Right...

Shonen series have a typical age range. Of course there are outliers, but the marketers' resources are best spent on targeting their typical reader/watcher.

Tell me where I disagreed with that. Go on. Where did I disagree with that...? I never did. I was merely stating that imposing an upper limit wouldn't make sense, that it wouldn't make sense for them to go out of their way to do that. I never said that they shouldn't focus their efforts on the group of people that they think is more likely to buy their products.

But I was the one who made a mistake..? I was the one who interpreted wrong?

So yes, it did contradict what you wrote.

It did? Even though I never said that they shouldn't focus their efforts on the group of people most likely to buy? Interesting.

The "T for Teen" or "10 and up" are ratings. It's like Rated PG or PG-13. It's not the target market.

They are required by law to have a notice telling the costumer if the product is not suitable to kids or teens or young people. However, if there was a point in defining an upper limit of age required for that product, there would nothing stopping the people who make the product from also telling the costumer in the product itself, or through other means of marketing, the upper limit of age required for that product. And that never happens. That was my point. If there was in point in defining such an upper limit, even if they are not required by law to provide it, they would.

Sorry that it came off as smug, but it is very basic marketing that you don't go after every group. I should have written, "I think you would find a marketing class interesting and informative, I highly suggest it." I wrote that because I think your comment about going after every segment comes off as ignorant.

There is a saying in my country... Apologizes shouldn't be made, the need for them should be avoided.

Besides, even when you say "sorry", you end up calling me ignorant. So no, I don't really care if you are sorry or not. I'll just avoid you like I said.

If any moderator feels I exaggerated in any way in my response, I'm sorry. This will be my last post on this matter.

[ABED]

I didn't call you ignorant as an insult, I meant you talked about marketing and how it works without knowledge of it. It came off as assumptions on your part.

You may have been discussing age limit but DBZGTKOSDH (I could be wrong, but that's the impression I got) was talking about target marketing and intended audience. Batman the animated series was intended for a younger audience, but it's appeal wasn't limited to that. It has to do with level at which it was written.

It seems there was an error in communication. You aren't clear that you weren't discussing target marketing. Perhaps both of us were talking at cross purposes. I do not recall at any time during this conversation you saying, "I'm not talking about target marketing", it seemed as though from your response that you were talking about that issue.

As to your saying, I understand the sentiment, but I disagree. Often times, people take offense to things when it's not warranted, or some people (I'll include myself) aren't the best at expressing themselves, and might come off as caustic and rude, when that wasn't the intention.

Back to the topic at hand, I would have them watch Kai first, if it's an American child. It seems not only from DBZ but to comics and such that the first incarnation that someone sees of some character(s) or story does have a big influence on their taste. Seeing a good dub first could help them get into DRAGON BALL, not the mangled version we got in the 90s.

[Hades]

Because it's shonen! Roshi doesn't need to be branded Persona Non Grata, because he gets branded by the backside of a frying pan, repeatedly. It's the typical "old man gets out of line, gets hit with heavy object" comedy cliche. It's not meant as a look the psychological repercussions of sexual harassment, it's meant as a gag. If you can't get past that, then I have no idea why you watch Dragon Ball.

I'm sorry, but sexual harassment and voyeurism shouldn't be resolved with a slap on the wrist, but with more lasting consequences.

This reminds me of an article I read about heroes in modern cinema. Back in the old days, the protagonists that appeared in film and in television were pretty much infallible in terms of doing the right thing, and having a good moral compass (of course, this is relative to that time period's norms). Now, more and more, you see films about protagonists who have no idea what they're doing, have shaky morals, and often come to find out that they're fighting for nothing. While it certainly makes for a good look at our own psychology, making the hero an uncertain, sometimes incapable person is depressingly realist.

Maybe it's because modern cinema and fiction have grown up, and are seeing the grey areas in life rather than just some bland fairy tale. Even Call of Duty has been doing this, with the characters doing morally questionable things, while Black Ops 2 shows that holding a black and white image for a nation's policy can come back to bite it.

Goku is a hero of old, doing the right thing when it needs to be done, always being helpful, and keeping his heart pure. He may be a crass mountain child, but that's his upbringing, it can't be helped. If what you're suggesting is that Dragon Ball would be a better if Goku were an insecure, uncertain person, then I would say you don't understand the concept of children's television/comics. The target market is CHILDREN. They should be given something to look up to, someone to idolize. They don't need to be repeatedly beaten over the head with the failures of mankind.

I'd rather have children learn about the truths of the world rather than just some rose tinted vision of it, which is all but living a lie. I'd say it's better to tear fantasies apart than to entertain them.

[ABED]

Because it's shonen! Roshi doesn't need to be branded Persona Non Grata, because he gets branded by the backside of a frying pan, repeatedly. It's the typical "old man gets out of line, gets hit with heavy object" comedy cliche. It's not meant as a look the psychological repercussions of sexual harassment, it's meant as a gag. If you can't get past that, then I have no idea why you watch Dragon Ball.

I'm sorry, but sexual harassment and voyeurism shouldn't be resolved with a slap on the wrist, but with more lasting consequences.

This reminds me of an article I read about heroes in modern cinema. Back in the old days, the protagonists that appeared in film and in television were pretty much infallible in terms of doing the right thing, and having a good moral compass (of course, this is relative to that time period's norms). Now, more and more, you see films about protagonists who have no idea what they're doing, have shaky morals, and often come to find out that they're fighting for nothing. While it certainly makes for a good look at our own psychology, making the hero an uncertain, sometimes incapable person is depressingly realist.

Maybe it's because modern cinema and fiction have grown up, and are seeing the grey areas in life rather than just some bland fairy tale. Even Call of Duty has been doing this, with the characters doing morally questionable things, while Black Ops 2 shows that holding a black and white image for a nation's policy can come back to bite it.

Goku is a hero of old, doing the right thing when it needs to be done, always being helpful, and keeping his heart pure. He may be a crass mountain child, but that's his upbringing, it can't be helped. If what you're suggesting is that Dragon Ball would be a better if Goku were an insecure, uncertain person, then I would say you don't understand the concept of children's television/comics. The target market is CHILDREN. They should be given something to look up to, someone to idolize. They don't need to be repeatedly beaten over the head with the failures of mankind.

I'd rather have children learn about the truths of the world rather than just some rose tinted vision of it, which is all but living a lie. I'd say it's better to tear fantasies apart than to entertain them.

It's meant for a younger audience, not everything has to be in the grey areas, and guess what grey is made up of - black and white. Black and white doesn't mean simplistic, neccessarily. That last statement is why you should not be writing children's programming. Not everything has to be Breaking Bad or Spec Ops (stop using that example all the time). It's nice to kick back with Legend of Zelda or Superman. Why is the mark of good fiction moral questionability? Modern audiences also like a little black and white every once and a while. What would you tell your children? "Life is the fucking pits, deal with it!" Why is it better to tear fantasies apart than to entertain? If life is as shitty as you imply, then wouldn't you want a little reprieve? There are abstract values that kids can take from Dragon Ball such as the value of enjoying life, working hard and fighting for one's values. Again, if DB is so god damn bad, and "all but living a lie" why are you a fan and why are you on this board? All of your responses speak more to your world view than it does about the quality of Dragon Ball.

[Hades]

It's meant for a younger audience, not everything has to be in the grey areas, and guess what grey is made up of - black and white. Black and white doesn't mean simplistic, neccessarily.

That's self-contradictory. Black and White is generally taken to be simple tales of good and evil, with no room for moral ambiguity.

That last statement is why you should not be writing children's programming. What would you tell your children? "Life is the fucking pits, deal with it!"

At least giving children low expectations in life is better than "you can do this!" ad nauseum. Somewhat relevant article: http://www.cracked.com/article_18544_ho ... world.html

Why is it better to tear fantasies apart than to entertain? If life is as shitty as you imply, then wouldn't you want a little reprieve? There are abstract values that kids can take from Dragon Ball such as the value of enjoying life, working hard and fighting for one's values

It's better to go into life with low expectations. That way, you'll be disappointed less. Besides, how much of your life will you enjoy when you are spending most of your life working late in a dead-end job for a boss that you despise as an alternative to homelessness.

Again, if DB is so god damn bad, and "all but living a lie" why are you a fan and why are you on this board?

I was a lukewarm fan until I realised that it was just the same thing over and over again, like Call of Duty (Goku meets bad guy. Goku gets stronger and beats bad guy. Rinse and Repeat).

[ABED]

It's meant for a younger audience, not everything has to be in the grey areas, and guess what grey is made up of - black and white. Black and white doesn't mean simplistic, neccessarily.

That's self-contradictory. Black and White is generally taken to be simple tales of good and evil, with no room for moral ambiguity.

That last statement is why you should not be writing children's programming. What would you tell your children? "Life is the fucking pits, deal with it!"

At least giving children low expectations in life is better than "you can do this!" ad nauseum. Somewhat relevant article: http://www.cracked.com/article_18544_ho ... world.html

Again, if DB is so god damn bad, and "all but living a lie" why are you a fan and why are you on this board?

I was a lukewarm fan until I realised that it was just the same thing over and over again, like Call of Duty (Goku meets bad guy. Goku gets stronger and beats bad guy. Rinse and Repeat).

It's not contradictory, grey is made up of black and white, or good and bad. Simple yes, but not simplistic.

I would not want you for my parent, and cracked is crap. It's entertaining, but I wouldn't take any life lessons. "You can do this!" is a good thing. People will get enough of the opposite in this life, that a little encouragement is a positive thing.

All of your statements tell me is that you think life sucks and people are terrible.

[Ringworm128]

Sorry to be rude but I really hope you don't have kids, you're bound to REALLY psychologically f..k them up. And each arc may have the same "good guys vs bad guys" plot but there are other things like Gohan growing up and Piccolo's redemption to keep them different not to mention the villains are fairly different. And if you hate DB so much why are you even here?

[Hades]

Sorry to be rude but I really hope you don't have kids, you're bound to REALLY psychologically f..k them up. And each arc may have the same "good guys vs bad guys" plot but there are other things like Gohan growing up and Piccolo's redemption to keep them different not to mention the villains are fairly different. And if you hate DB so much why are you even here?

It's not so much hating DB as looking at it from a different perspective. I didn't really buy Gohan and Piccolo's Character arcs since it just felt like generic Shonen "redemption" or "hard men making hard decisions". At least Vegeta's "HARD MEN" decisions come back to bite him. I found Captain Walker in Spec Ops: The Line more convincing than Gohan or Piccolo, as we see his "HARD MAN!" approach melt away to madness by the end of the game.

[ABED]

Sorry to be rude but I really hope you don't have kids, you're bound to REALLY psychologically f..k them up. And each arc may have the same "good guys vs bad guys" plot but there are other things like Gohan growing up and Piccolo's redemption to keep them different not to mention the villains are fairly different. And if you hate DB so much why are you even here?

It's not so much hating DB as looking at it from a different perspective. I didn't really buy Gohan and Piccolo's Character arcs since it just felt like generic Shonen "redemption" or "hard men making hard decisions". At least Vegeta's "HARD MEN" decisions come back to bite him. I found Captain Walker in Spec Ops: The Line more convincing than Gohan or Piccolo, as we see his "HARD MAN!" approach melt away to madness by the end of the game.

Again with that game. Not everyone reacts the same to trauma. You don't buy the redemption because you don't buy people becoming better, at least that's how it comes off.

Vegeta's decisions come back to bite him because he's immoral.

[Ringworm128]

Just replace "Batman TAS" with "SOTL" http://youtu.be/dnA8xv2wolo?t=10s

[ABED]

Just replace "Batman TAS" with "SOTL" http://youtu.be/dnA8xv2wolo?t=10s

The reviewers annoyingness aside, what are you pointing out?