Does anyone else dislike how Toriyama used Future Trunks

[TheGmGoken]

Regardless of the pressure, he knows his mission, there's no other choice.

The pressure mixed in with the fact that he's the reason why his father is dead really got into him. Just because he knows the "mission" doesn't mean he's capable of doing it without guidance from his father who is dead cause of his son. Yes Gohan needed help. He was under the extreme pressure of the lifetime. Notice 7 years later he does much better as he's confident.

I know Gohan wasn't expecting, but well into the battle, he still seems confused.

Confused on what to do? Do you mean during the whole Super Perfect cell thing? His arm was broken. His rage boast was gone. He feels bad that he caused his father to die. I mean damn. You're being to hard on him. Piccolo even said that Gohan is just a boy. With all of those condition weighting down on Gohan what did you expect? Him to take his vitamins, say his prayers, and hulk up? No he's a 9 year boy who is scarred shit-less because his confidence is gone, his arm is broken, and he indirectly killed his father. I mean if I was in his position then I would do the same thing.

[ABED]

I can understand that his arm breaking can hurt someone's confidence, but what the hell else is he gonna do? Gohan needs to buck up. Yeah he got dealt a crap hand, but there's no room for him to be any less than his best. He can bitch about it later. I expected him to think "I'm scared and I might not win, but screw it, I'm going down swingin'" at the very least. I expected him to be like he was against Reacoom.

His father's death being his fault should be extra fuel for him to want to take out Cell.

Just because he knows the "mission" doesn't mean he's capable of doing it without guidance from his father

Why? Gohan knows how to fight.

[TheGmGoken]

Why? Gohan knows how to fight.

With a broken arm, emotion, and doubting himself in self confidence?

but what the hell else is he gonna do? Gohan needs to buck up. Yeah he got dealt a crap hand, but there's no room for him to be any less than his best. He can bitch about it later.

Seems more or less now that you're complaining that Gohan was doubting himself rather than disagreeing with it.

I expected him to think "I'm scared and I might not win, but screw it, I'm going down swingin'" at the very least. I expected him to be like he was against Reacoom.

His father's death being his fault should be extra fuel for him to want to take out Cell.

Yes that Rikum speech was good but now he's randomly a pacifist with a broken arm and the weight of the world on his shoulders. Goku's death did fuel him at first. Remember he went SSJ2 again and said he wants to avenge his father. However once his arm got broken. He pretty much gave up and said "I caused my dad's death", "I'm at half of my power", and/or I can't do it dad!

[ABED]

With a broken arm, emotion, and doubting himself in self confidence?

That's my point, even with the broken arm, he shouldn't have such low self confidence that it keeps him from putting out as much power as he could.

[TheGmGoken]

With a broken arm, emotion, and doubting himself in self confidence?

That's my point, even with the broken arm, he shouldn't have such low self confidence that it keeps him from putting out as much power as he could.

His arm is broken, he feels responsible for his dad's death, his power dropped by HALF of his rage boast, and Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan without a rage boast. Pretty good reasons to not have confidence

[ABED]

His arm is broken, he feels responsible for his dad's death, his power dropped by HALF of his rage boast, and Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan without a rage boast. Pretty good reasons to not have confidence

Raging boast?
The desire to make up for his mistake should be fuel for Gohan.
Cell wasn't that much stronger than Gohan, if at all. Gohan simply lacked confidence, I get why the pain and the loss of power would wear on him, but he was prepared to not even put up a fight until his dad stepped in. Gohan was actually holding back his power because he feared he'd damage the planet.

Notice 7 years later he does much better as he's confident.

So his confidence grew off screen? Yay!

[TheGmGoken]

His arm is broken, he feels responsible for his dad's death, his power dropped by HALF of his rage boast, and Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan without a rage boast. Pretty good reasons to not have confidence

Raging boast?
The desire to make up for his mistake should be fuel for Gohan.
Cell wasn't that much stronger than Gohan, if at all. Gohan simply lacked confidence, I get why the pain and the loss of power would wear on him, but he was prepared to not even put up a fight until his dad stepped in. Gohan was actually holding back his power because he feared he'd damage the planet.

1. Raging boast = Rage boast. Yes Gohan got a rage boast on top of his SSJ2. Hence why he lost HALF of his SSJ2 Power but wasn't at his SSJ power itself.

2. He was happy to avenge his father. Until he broke his arm and start saying it was his fault that Goku died.

3. I said Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan at HALF power. Yes he was not going to fight. This is because he broke his arm, blame himself for Goku's death, and didn't want to planet to blow up. Let's not forget how much pressure he has on him at the moment.

4. Yes he didn't want to hurt the planet. He also have much pressure on him.

[ABED]

Raging boast = Rage boast.

In the dictionary, under redundant it says "see redundant". I don't know what you mean. I've never heard that term before. Gohan says he lost half.

3. I said Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan at HALF power. Yes he was not going to fight. This is because he broke his arm, blame himself for Goku's death, and didn't want to planet to blow up. Let's not forget how much pressure he has on him at the moment.

I know the story, and who cares about the pressure, what the hell else do you do? Just lay down and die? He might as well try. Given that Gohan won, he is clearly capable of a lot that he doesn't know about. At some point he needed to grow up, and the fact that he can't do it on screen is not only disappointing, it's unbecoming of a hero, it doesn't make sense. You can tell me all about pressure but a good story will have an arc. Gohan's arc is overcoming the pressure and becoming the hero.

[TheGmGoken]

In the dictionary, under redundant it says "see redundant". I don't know what you mean. I've never heard that term before. Gohan says he lost half.

You mean you never heard of Gohan getting a rage boast? It's mentioned all the time on this website and Daizenshuu kinda confirms it. I'm sure you can find it on any Gohan topics.

I know the story, and who cares about the pressure, what the hell else do you do? Just lay down and die? He may as well try. Given that Gohan won, he is clearly capable of a lot that he doesn't know about. At some point he needed to grow up, and the fact that he can't do it on screen is not only disappointing, it's unbecoming of a hero, it doesn't make sense. You can tell me all about pressure but a good story will have an arc. Gohan's arc is overcoming the pressure and becoming the hero.

Just asking but what the hell does you knowing the story have to do with anything? What you mean "who cares about pressure". Pressure have been shown in Dragonball. He pretty much did lay there and almost died. But Goku talked to him. The WHOLE story pushes towards Gohan doing things he didn't know he could do. He's a 9 year old child who's scarred because he have nothing left to offer before Goku talked to him. Re read or re watch Piccolo's speech to Goku for more info. How is it disappointing? After Cell, Gohan went mystic right? Gohan handle Boo MUCH better than he did Cell. Both blew themselves up but this time Gohan did the right thing. He didn't freak out that the world rested on Gohan. He accepted the role and even fought in Goku's clothes.

That alone shows he has grown as a fighter and in some cases a hero. Let not mention that fact that 7 tears earlier everyone was smiling at Gohan. It does make sense. It's a different approach that most manga-comic-anime- and stories do rarely. It did have an arc. It showed how strong Gohan has become(Original SSJ2 transformation), then showing his emotional struggle and self doubt, lastly with the help of his father Gohan killed Cell. I've seen this many times over the years of watching and reading. Who are you to say what Gohan's big moment(Not an arc) was about. It was about him becoming the strongest and becoming Earth's new protector JUST in case something bad happen. At this point it's doubtful that anyone stronger than Cell will come. It seems to me you're complaining because it didn't go the way you wanted OR that Gohan is a young boy with the pressure of Earth in his hands so he's scarred.

[ABED]

You keep telling me his arm was broken, he blames himself, etc. I know the story, you don't have to reiterate it.

Rage boast I assume means his power goes up when he gets angry. You coulda just explained it.

I know that he did pretty much lay down and almost died, that's my issue. The fact that Goku had to tell him not to essentially commit suicide makes him less worthy of taking the hero position. Gohan had growth AFTER Cell. It should be happening during the arc where he becomes the hero, but that growth and arc should happen on camera. It showed growth but the growth wasn't shown. Having Gohan be scarred in one arc and not in the next is lazy. A better writer would've had Gohan resolve his issues in order to achieve his goal. That's the hero's journey. Gohan wins because his daddy told him he could and told him what to do when.

Who are you to say what Gohan's big moment(Not an arc) was about.

I wasn't aware that I wasn't allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

[TheGmGoken]

I wasn't aware that I wasn't allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

No where in my comment hints that. Goku pretty much said what's it's about at the end. Not to mention he didn't really over come the pressure since he had Goku telling him what to do the whole time

You keep telling me his arm was broken, he blames himself, etc. I know the story, you don't have to reiterate it.

I can and will at times. It's part of the explanation. Don't get so annoyed. It's a conversation. I'm allowed to bring up events to the story. If you don't like then stop replying.

Rage boast I assume means his power goes up when he gets angry. You coulda just explained it.

I thought it was self explained or you heard about it.

I know that he did pretty much lay down and almost died, that's my issue. The fact that Goku had to tell him not to essentially commit suicide makes him less worthy of taking the hero position. Gohan had growth AFTER Cell. It should be happening during the arc where he becomes the hero, but that growth and arc should happen on camera. It showed growth but the growth wasn't shown. Having Gohan be scarred in one arc and not in the next is lazy. A better writer would've had Gohan resolve his issues in order to achieve his goal.

Um. Many heroes have done the same thing Gohan done. It's not a big deal. Every hero at one point have self doubt and is willing to give up and just die. Some of them go on to become future heroes. Cell was Gohan's first real test to see if he can protect the Earth. Don't blame him for being 9 years old and scarred. Blame Goku for not knowing his son. The growth did happen on screen. Mystic Gohan showed the growth. Do you know how many heroes have the same case as Gohan when they're first becoming heroes? You're waaaaaay to hard on the boy. Even grown up or teenager heroes have those moments. How is that lazy? Gohan is willing to fight with the pressure of Earth on his shoulders now and even wore Goku's gi. This alone shows how much Gohan grown since that was his next "test". Now you're questioning Akira Toriyama's writing because things didn't go how you wanted? I admit he's not the best writer but just because it went differently than expected doesn't mean it's a bad writer moment. Hell better writers have done something similar to what's your point? Not everyone hero need to over-come the odds of everything. Gohan killed Cell and became the strongest. It's easy to follow and great ending IMO. Hell Peter Parker is still haunted by Gwen Stacy's Death.

[ABED]

I didn't say he couldn't doubt himself, just that it seems to come out of nowhere, and that he succumbs to it until his father tells him what to do and when to do it. That's not becoming of the hero of the story. Heroes should be proactive and overcome their shortcomings, hence why they are heroes.

Mystic Gohan didn't show growth, he was already more confident in that 7 year period, he just got a power boost (not boast).

I'm questioning Toriyama's ability to write Gohan as a convincing lead hero in Gohan. It's basic hero's journey stuff where the hero betters himself and that improvement is what enables them to overcome the villain. Passivity is not a good trait for the main hero. Doubt isn't passivity.

Yeah, Peter is still haunted by Gwen's death but he didn't need anyone to make him move on with his life. He moved forward and married MJ. He often has doubts, but he overcomes them. Gohan was basically the gun that Goku pointed in Cell's direction.

You aren't understanding me at all, I didn't write "Gohan is lazy". I wrote that Gohan's arc is lazy writing because he's not confident in his abilities in one arc, and then the next one he is. His arc jumps from A to Z. What about B through Y? One of the Brilliant things about Breaking Bad is Walt starts off as milquetoast guy and becomes a drug kingpin and almost psychopathic murderer, but we see the steps along the way so we understand why he changes.

[mAcChaos]

Gohan thought they were screwed and had lost hope. That's why he gave up. Same as Vegeta against Freeza.

[ABED]

Gohan thought they were screwed and had lost hope. That's why he gave up. Same as Vegeta against Freeza.

Vegeta wasn't the hero.

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan thought they were screwed and had lost hope. That's why he gave up. Same as Vegeta against Freeza.

Vegeta wasn't the hero.

It doesn't matter. They still felt a similar feeling. That's like saying A villain crying because another villain killed his mother is not the same as a Hero crying because a villain killed his mother,

I didn't say he couldn't doubt himself, just that it seems to come out of nowhere, and that he succumbs to it until his father tells him what to do and when to do it. That's not becoming of the hero of the story. Heroes should be proactive and overcome their shortcomings, hence why they are heroes.

It wasn't random. His arm was broken and lost half of his power. His reason why explained. Also by your logic of what a hero should be then a lot of heroes aren't heroes no more. They're just people who help others. Not every hero needs to be the same over come the odds hero.

Mystic Gohan didn't show growth, he was already more confident in that 7 year period, he just got a power boost (not boast).

How you know that? He didn't fight any villains that could destroy Earth. the moment Gohan stepped on that mountain thingy(With the anime making a spinning motion) showed Gohan had grown.

I'm questioning Toriyama's ability to write Gohan as a convincing lead hero in Gohan. It's basic hero's journey stuff where the hero betters himself and that improvement is what enables them to overcome the villain. Passivity is not a good trait for the main hero. Doubt isn't passivity.

It convinced a lot of people apparently. Yes Gohan slacked off but he had every right to. Not everyon hero need to have the same basic hero stuff. Gohan improved himself in the Boo Arc. Yes he didn't win the fight but that's a whole other debate. You do realize that lots of heroes have slacked off or showed Passivity.

Yeah, Peter is still haunted by Gwen's death but he didn't need anyone to make him move on with his life. He moved forward and married MJ. He often has doubts, but he overcomes them. Gohan was basically the gun that Goku pointed in Cell's direction.

Gohan moved on in his life. Hence why he stopped fighting. But when the time is needed. HE DID FIGHT. So he moved on. Gohan was like 9? So of coruse it's harder for him to over come the odds. It's called Goku not knowing his Son. Gohan as a teenager/adult have shown doubts.

You aren't understanding me at all, I didn't write "Gohan is lazy". I wrote that Gohan's arc is lazy writing because he's not confident in his abilities in one arc, and then the next one he is. His arc jumps from A to Z. What about B through Y? One of the Brilliant things about Breaking Bad is Walt starts off as milquetoast guy and becomes a drug kingpin and almost psychopathic murderer, but we see the steps along the way so we understand why he changes.

You didn't read my comment right. I said the growth wasn't lazy. I didn't say Gohan wasn't lazy. He was confident before he got his arm broken and start saying his father died cause of him. Once he got passed that 7 years later the same thing happen. Look how much different it is. He doesn't blame himself for not being able to beat Fat Boo. He just go back and fight as if it never happen. Gohan went from a scarred 4 -5 year old to a 6 - 8 year old willing to fight to a 9 year old pacifist scarred shitless into a 16 - 18 scholar that when needed WILL fight. That is change. Not every character need a over the top character changes. It'll be boring and not as cool if Gohan just said "I will fight to my last breath".

It does matter. They can have a similar feelings but it's the way they react is what shows what kind of people they are. The villain succumbs to his self doubt, but the hero either goes down swinging or digs down deep and finds a way to win over seemingly insurmountable odds. Notice Goku faced the same feeling as Vegeta did. He started to lose hope that he could win but he was prepared to go down swinging.

It doesn't matter. Feelings are feelings. What ever you're a hero or a bad guy. Being one or the other doesn't change how you act. Not all villains do that. Some go down fighting just like what a "hero is suppose to do". Not all heroes goes down swigging. To be honest even though it's rare a lot of heroes do what Gohan do. So to say that is just ignorant. Goku have a never give up attitude. Gohan was a pacifist(Yes a bit random) who never had the World on his shoulders. Vegeta was being beaten by someone he wanted to kill forever only to find out that his power is useless. NOT EVERYONE HERO GOES DOWN SWINGING. NOT EVERY VILLAIN GOES DOWN SUCCUMBING. Your definition of heroes and villains is stereotypical. Using that stereotyped logic then lots of people aren't heroes nor villains.

Gohan isn't Goku. That is why Toriyama said he wasn't suited for the hero role.

But as far as good story telling goes, it is actually better since it makes for more drama.

That's a nice sum up of things. Though I think Gohan is suited but it's Akira Toriyama's story. He did try and make Gohan the hero though

[ABED]

Gohan thought they were screwed and had lost hope. That's why he gave up. Same as Vegeta against Freeza.

Vegeta wasn't the hero.

It doesn't matter. They still felt a similar feeling. That's like saying A villain crying because another villain killed his mother is not the same as a Hero crying because a villain killed his mother,

It does matter. They can have a similar feelings but it's the way they react is what shows what kind of people they are. The villain succumbs to his self doubt, but the hero either goes down swinging or digs down deep and finds a way to win over seemingly insurmountable odds. Notice Goku faced the same feeling as Vegeta did. He started to lose hope that he could win but he was prepared to go down swinging.

[mAcChaos]

Gohan isn't Goku. That is why Toriyama said he wasn't suited for the hero role.

But as far as good story telling goes, it is actually better since it makes for more drama.

[TheGmGoken]

Read my edited post.

[ABED]

Gohan isn't Goku. That is why Toriyama said he wasn't suited for the hero role.

But as far as good story telling goes, it is actually better since it makes for more drama.

Clearly this shows that he isn't suited for the role. Gohan doesn't have to be Goku, but as the hero he can't just be told what to do. There are few things more boring than a hero that's passive in his/her own story

I think there's plenty of drama in a guy that doesn't know if they can win but is willing to die trying. Gohan couldn't at least be that. He had to be told to tryin.

[TheGmGoken]

but as the hero he can't just be told what to do. There are few things more boring than a hero that's passive in his/her own story

While you're using passive the right way. It's the wrong time to use it. The way you use means that all heroes aren't heroes because at one point most of them was passive for a moment due to reasons. Also this was Gohan's FIRST TIME being a hero. The fact he needed a guide from his father showed how inexperience he was. Same with Aang and Roku. at first Roku gudied Aang but as the story goes on Aang doesn't use him as much. Had there been an Arc between Boo and Cell rather it been filler or apart of the manga I'm sure Gohan would have done MUCH better like Broly the second coming(Yes Goku came at the end but that was for Toei's sake). You're complaining that a 9 year boy who never EVER had to protect Earth should't need help. Which IMO is just wrong. Even Piccolo agrees.

I think there's plenty of drama in a guy that doesn't know if they can win but is willing to die trying. Gohan couldn't at least be that. He had to be told to tryin.

That's not drama well it is..but that's the same thing we've saw since the Saiyajin Arc. Freeza Arc and Saiyajin Arc showed it. We don't need a 3 in the role. What you think while your opinion is just a default hero story that's been over done LONG before DB came out. It;s old. Boring. Once again your reasons for your beef with Gohan should mean that too you lots of heroes aren't heroes.