Who's Stronger: Janemba or Hirudegarn.

[RandomGuy96]

I like the theory that cutting off the monster's tail made him much weaker. That makes it feel like Trunks actually had SOME impact, and makes Hildegarn a closer counterpart to Super Buu, who he has a similar role to (as Janemba has a similar role and personality to Buu's fat and pure forms).

His top and bottom halves are two parts of a whole that are united to form an enormously powerful being. So, the evil and good halves of Buu. His first form is said enormously powerful being, but is still weaker than Gotenks, who beats on him and hits him with a barrage of ki blasts. He'd be equivalent to Super Buu. His 'evolved' form is a much more powerful version of his previous form, who is now not only stronger than Gotenks, but Gohan as well, who he easily defeats, similar to Buutenks. Finally, he gets an important piece of him severed, causing his strength to drop significantly, and fights with SS3 Goku before falling to Goku's ultimate technique, representing Super Buu's reversion to Pure Buu and destruction by the Genki Dama.

And all the while, Janemba's full power is more-or-less equivalent to that of Gohan-Boo, and they both get their butts kicked by a Goku/Vegeta Fusion.

All partially-serious kidding aside, I like that theory too, and it's the sort of idea I subscribe to when it comes to Hildegarn as well. Having re-watched the movie recently, I noted that SSJ3 Goku never actually "exchanged blows" with Hildegarn until AFTER Trunks chopped his tail off (all he did before it was dodge one swipe). It could very well be the case that Hildy's power did indeed drop a whole bunch to the point where Goku could defend against him adequately before getting his opening for the Dragon Fist.

That's interesting. Along with the Buu parallels, and the apparent importance of the tail to his biology, the theory is seeming more and more likely. It might be another case of Toei knowing deep down how weak Goku really is, and trying to cover it up by having him fight and beat a weakened form of the villain. Its like how they removed Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks from GT.

I find Janemba to be a much closer counterpart to Pure Buu than he is to Super or Gohan Buu. He's a borderline feral blindly destructive demon who's more powerful and dangerous than his previous fat form, despite being much smaller. He takes on SS3 Goku and beats him after a semi-decent fight, thanks to both his raw power and his abilities, and then proceeds to beat up SS2 Vegeta while laughing. In the end, he's defeated when Goku and Vegeta perform an extreme maneuver relying on sharing power, while a side character distracts him long enough to give Goku and Vegeta time.

Also, Gohan-Buu was not defeated by a Goku/Vegeta fusion. He was beaten by having a major part of his biology severed, and then being hit by Goku's ultimate technique while in a weakened state.

[Kaboom]

Also, Gohan-Buu was not defeated by a Goku/Vegeta fusion. He was beaten by having a major part of his biology severed, and then being hit by Goku's ultimate technique while in a weakened state.

I knew I was wording that awkwardly. I was talking about and comparing Janemba to Gohan-Boo, not Hildegarn.

[RandomGuy96]

Also, Gohan-Buu was not defeated by a Goku/Vegeta fusion. He was beaten by having a major part of his biology severed, and then being hit by Goku's ultimate technique while in a weakened state.

I knew I was wording that awkwardly. I was talking about and comparing Janemba to Gohan-Boo, not Hildegarn.

Err, I know? I'm not sure what that's supposed to change.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Goku transform after the tail was cut? I'm not sure though.

Nope. Hildegarn escapes, Goku goes SSJ3, Hildegarn throws one swipe which Goku dodges, Trunks chops off Hildy's tail, final showdown ensues.

Well, as much as I would like to support the theory, the movie doesn't help. Just watched the fight, and Goku is sure to defeat Hildegarn at the moment he transforms (since he just discovered his weakness), and he talks to Trunks more like he would get in his way. I don't think he would talk to him like that if he had actually weakened him, and Goku didn't act like Hildegarn's power changed.

So, the only think that can make sense IMO is the theory about his weak body. Makes sense, since Boo had a weak body as well (bullets could pierce him), but his regeneration & body structure helped him overcome this weakness. So, Hildegarn also has a weak body for the strength he possess (not as weak as Boo's of course), so he has the ability to turn into a phantom & avoid any damage to overcome this weakness.

[Kaboom]

Err, I know? I'm not sure what that's supposed to change.

Oh, right, I see what you mean now. Still, both Gohan-Boo and Janemba got their butts clearly kicked (though not necessarily "defeated") by a Goku-Vegeta Fusion, which was the main point I was trying to make.

So, the only think that can make sense IMO is the theory about his weak body. Makes sense, since Boo had a weak body as well (bullets could pierce him), but his regeneration & body structure helped him overcome this weakness. So, Hildegarn also has a weak body for the strength he possess (not as weak as Boo's of course), so he has the ability to turn into a phantom & avoid any damage to overcome this weakness.

That also makes a lot of sense. His sheer size would help add extra weight to his attacks and make up for any deficiency in strength.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, as much as I would like to support the theory, the movie doesn't help. Just watched the fight, and Goku is sure to defeat Hildegarn at the moment he transforms (since he just discovered his weakness), and he talks to Trunks more like he would get in his way. I don't think he would talk to him like that if he had actually weakened him, and Goku didn't act like Hildegarn's power changed.

Wait, what weakness?

Goku could have just not been sensing at the time. That happens a lot. Also, no one comments on Hildegarn having an unusually weak body either.

I also like this theory better because it just makes a better film; having Trunks, using a sword from Tapion, actually do something and be vital to the final victory is simply much better storytelling than having someone with no connection to the villain like Goku swoop in and one-shot him after talking down to Trunks.

So, the only think that can make sense IMO is the theory about his weak body. Makes sense, since Boo had a weak body as well (bullets could pierce him), but his regeneration & body structure helped him overcome this weakness. So, Hildegarn also has a weak body for the strength he possess (not as weak as Boo's of course), so he has the ability to turn into a phantom & avoid any damage to overcome this weakness.

Buu's body wasn't actually weak. Bullets only pierced when he LET them pierce; he had no problem outright tanking super-powerful attacks when he wanted to, like attacks from SS Gotenks and SS3 Gotenks.

That also makes a lot of sense. His sheer size would help add extra weight to his attacks and make up for any deficiency in strength

What wouldn't make sense is how someone as weak as Goku could take hits from someone that can one-shot Gohan and Gotenks. And no, the "off guard" explanation doesn't work here. Gotenks saw the hits coming, and while I don't remember if Gohan did, he was still unable to break out of Hildegarn's hold, so his defeat can't be attributed to being off guard either.

But I have no problem with Goku's Dragon Fist killing Hildegarn even if he is Gotenks-Buu tier. That haxxed technique just appears to have a humongous 'multiplier'. My problem is with him tanking and blocking punches.

Oh, right, I see what you mean now. Still, both Gohan-Boo and Janemba got their butts clearly kicked (though not necessarily "defeated") by a Goku-Vegeta Fusion, which was the main point I was trying to make.

I know they were each beaten up by Goku/Vegeta fusions, but I was pointing out how that's not how they were actually finally beaten, hence why I see Hildegarn as a closer counterpart to Gohan/Gotenks Buu than Janemba, who I see as a counterpart to Pure Buu. Think of Movie 12 as an ultra-abridged version of the Buu Saga, with the Super Buu/Gotenks/Gohan portions cut out, and one power-sharing technique in the place of another, with Fat Janemba being Fat Buu, Super Janemba being Pure Buu, and Pikkon being Mr. Buu.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku didn't discover any weakness in Hirudegarn.

Gohan stated something like this after Trunks' charge, to which Goku responded he has also discovered. Apparently, when Hirudegarn attacks he has to solidify his body, and in that particular moment he is vulnerable.

Goku being in Gohan's league at all is obviously wrong, but that's what the statement implies.

Hirudegarn looks stronger than Gohan and Goku beat him. Of course, there are plenty of debate around this subject in the fandom, but Toei seems to be on Goku's side.

The trading blows evenly thing never happened. The entry also failed to mention the technique Goku used to beat Hirudegarn, because the same thing would have worked on Janemba.

Literally, I agree they poorly describe the facts in that statement, but I think they just wanted to be as simple as possible. I don't think Ryu-ken would have worked on Janenba, but it is debatable.

That's my point: the "official" information is clearly wrong. Because "official" doesn't necessarily mean "right" or well thought out. Goku obviously can't be just as strong as he is in Namek in the Buu arc, Cooler obviously can't be that strong unless the Movie 8 heroes are pre-ROSAT (or Broly/Cooler aren't in the same continuity, something which actually is officially supported), LSS Movie 8 Broly obviously is much weaker than SS3 Goku, etc.

They give us a world of possibilities, I think they chose what looks like convenient, without overthinking too much, like most of fans (including me) usually do. I'm actually intending to use these informations in future discussions.

Then they're not trading blows evenly. Hirudegarn just continually punches Goku with Goku not fighting back. Then Goku uses a special technique and Hirudegarn instantly dies. That's not 'trading equally'.

I agree the term is problematic, you have a great desproportionality between Goku & Hirudegarn's size. Trading blows evenly would be impratical in these circunstances, but I suppose they worded like that to make Hirudegarn a SS3 Goku's rival strenght-wise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Wait, what weakness?

Gohan says "Dad his weakness is..." and Goku says "I know" or something like that, and says that he gets solid only when he attacks so he has to attack then. He attacks, and kills him.

Goku could have just not been sensing at the time. That happens a lot.

We are talking about a guy falling from above U. Gohan's level to SS3 Goku's level...

What wouldn't make sense is how someone as weak as Goku could take hits from someone that can one-shot Gohan and Gotenks. And no, the "off guard" explanation doesn't work here. Gotenks saw the hits coming, and while I don't remember if Gohan did, he was still unable to break out of Hildegarn's hold, so his defeat can't be attributed to being off guard either.

Gotenks was is a WTF moment, and it's also possible that the time ran out. Gohan was concerned about Videl when Hildegarn suddenly took him out. I'm not saying that they would be fine if they were fully ready like Goku, I'm saying that they would still be standing.

Also remember, when someone has determination in the anime, he can survive hits from much stronger guys. Remember when base Goku stopped Super Yi Xing Long's ki blast?

[RandomGuy96]

Hirudegarn looks stronger than Gohan and Goku beat him. Of course, there are plenty of debate around this subject in the fandom, but Toei seems to be on Goku's side.

Goku beat a Hildegarn that was likely seriously injured (what with the whole "vomiting blood" thing) using a special technique. Simply beating Hildegarn doesn't make SS3 Goku stronger than Ultimate Gohan, no more than SS Goku beating Pure Buu means he's stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

And there shouldn't be any debate, if common sense entered the equation at any point. It's literally stated numerous times that SS3 Goku is far weaker than someone who is weaker than SS3 Gotenks, who is far weaker than Ultimate Gohan. That, and even just a small portion of Ultimate Gohan's ki is implied to be greater than SS3 Goku during the Genki Dama sequence.

Literally, I agree they poorly describe the facts in that statement, but I think they just wanted to be as simple as possible. I don't think Ryu-ken would have worked on Janenba, but it is debatable.

That's not "poorly described", it's simply describing an event that did not happen.

They give us a world of possibilities, I think they chose what looks like convenient, without overthinking too much, like most of fans (including me) usually do. I'm actually intending to use these informations in future discussions.

What information? Broly and Cooler being stronger than SS3 and SS2 Goku?

I agree the term is problematic, you have a great desproportionality between Goku & Hirudegarn's size. Trading blows evenly would be impratical in these circunstances, but I suppose they worded like that to make Hirudegarn a SS3 Goku's rival strenght-wise.

So, in other words, they didn't trade blows equally? The old website was describing something that didn't actually happen?

Gohan says "Dad his weakness is..." and Goku says "I know" or something like that, and says that he gets solid only when he attacks so he has to attack then. He attacks, and kills him.

Well, that's not really a 'weakness' for Hildegarn himself. Even if he was solid all the time, he'd still kick Goku's ass without that haxxed technique.

We are talking about a guy falling from above U. Gohan's level to SS3 Goku's level...

Remember during the Cell Games, when no one could tell that a ki had fallen from "above SS Goku" to "nothing"? Or rather, that it hadn't?

Gotenks was is a WTF moment, and it's also possible that the time ran out.

Except we saw that it didn't; he reverted only a minute or two after he was made. Hildegarn somehow punched him out of fusion, even though Gotenks was fully expecting the hit.

Even if that was the reason, any attack capable of damaging SS3 Gotenks should leave SS3 Goku as a stain on the wall. I think that Hildegarn using his phantom powers to dodge is just how he fights, not that he actually needs to. He bothered dodging incredibly weak attacks like SS2 Goku's Kamehameha, after all (similar to Janemba phasing to dodge SS2 Vegeta's ki blasts).

Gohan was concerned about Videl when Hildegarn suddenly took him out. I'm not saying that they would be fine if they were fully ready like Goku, I'm saying that they would still be standing.

Hildegarn grabbed him. Gohan saw the tail coming and couldn't dodge or block it. Then he squeezed and threw. Gohan was fully aware of what was going on and he was unable to break Hildegarn's hold, or mouth blast him or something. Hell, he was down for the count for the whole rest of the fight!

So you're basically saying Goku is stronger than them? Because he was completely fine after getting punched multiple times. Then again Movie 13 has some WEIRD survival feats, like Videl surviving Hildegarn's fire breath. Hell, the fall alone should have more than enough to kill her. Or SS2 Goku and SS2 Vegeta surviving multiple hits from Hildegarn.

Another interesting thing about Hildegarn's tail: it seems that the monster vomits blood as Trunks cuts it, a sign of a serious injury.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gotenks was like "WTF he just transformed? Wait, he is atta-" BOOM!, and Gohan was like "Videl are you all ri-AAAAAGGH". Goku wasn't "fine" from the hits, he was taking damage, but was resisting because "if I don't who will?!".

I'm not saying that Goku is stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, I'm saying that the power gaps in the anime don't work like they do in the manga. We have base Saiyans putting a fight with SS-tier (like base Gohan vs SS Goten, or base Saiyans vs #13, #14, and #15) and even SS3-tier (like base/SS Goku vs Rild) opponents many times in the anime, there are inconsistencies like Oozaru Vegeta overpowering SS4 Goku, base Goku overpowering powered-up Freeza & Cell, Mr. Popo "playing" with SS Goten & SS Trunks, Mutaito overpowering Goku, who should be stronger since he killed Daimao, and base Goku holding an attack from Super Yi Xing Long.

So, Goku tanked the punches because he of his bigger willpower, if that makes sense, somehow. It's a thing in the anime, but not in the manga.

[MDSTSSJ]

The difference in power between SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is not that far like some of you always intended to show.

Movie 13 comes after a few years of the Boo saga. Of course Goku has continued his training and has increased his powers and learn Ryu Ken but still not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan.

Hildegarn is stronger than those 3 ( I have Hildegarn at Gohan Boo level and Super Janemba at Super Boo level ). Full power Ultimate Gohan can't do any harm to Hildegarns half body who is weaker than his full body. But, in that first fight Gohan discovers HIldegarns weakness just after throw the energy ball and for that, he test his discovery when Hildegarn prepares to stomp him with his foot.

It doesn't matter if Trunks cut Hildegarns tail, no one of those 3 can beat ( only with an special technique like Ryu Ken, Vegetto or Gogeta ) Hildegarn on one on one figth even without his tail. Kakarotto beat Hildegarn because he also discovered his weakness and therefore use their newly super powerful technique learned in his training, nothing else. That's why " If Gokū Can't Do It, Who Will " sentence!

Goku tanked the HIldegarn punches is not only because he have the greatest willpower, is also because SSJ3 Goku is stronger than you guys always think.

Hildegarn is stronger than Super Janemba!

[Hugo Boss]

Goku beat a Hildegarn that was likely seriously injured (what with the whole "vomiting blood" thing) using a special technique. Simply beating Hildegarn doesn't make SS3 Goku stronger than Ultimate Gohan, no more than SS Goku beating Pure Buu means he's stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

Then, you think that cutting Hirudegarn's tail made him weaker than SS3 Gotenks for SS3 Goku to be able to fight him? And Ryuken is so powerful that would make Goku looks (suppose) 10 times stronger than he actually is? They never said Hirudegarn lost power, it should be something worth noting if the difference between their powers was so drastic. But they detected his weakness when he attacks, which is actually the main point of defeating Hirudegarn. Ryuken most likely consists in concentrating all of Goku's battle power in his fist, like he did against Piccolo Daimaou when we see the image of an Oozaru instead of a Golden Dragon. Goku beat Majin Boo with a Super Genkidama, why use this as an example, really? By the way, SS3 Goku couldn't beat Pure Boo in an one-on-one match, besides previous statements suggesting otherwise.

And there shouldn't be any debate, if common sense entered the equation at any point. It's literally stated numerous times that SS3 Goku is far weaker than someone who is weaker than SS3 Gotenks, who is far weaker than Ultimate Gohan. That, and even just a small portion of Ultimate Gohan's ki is implied to be greater than SS3 Goku during the Genki Dama sequence.

I'm afraid this may end up in a Goku vs Gohan & Gotenks debate, I really don't want to make the discussion to take that direction, my apologizes, but I don't like to see people tossing around manga establishs that Goku is weaker than Gotenks & Gohan as if it were a fact, even when they have good evidences to back their opinions up. Personally, I believe the statements are very clear to build up the idea of the new generation being stronger than the previous, as far as to put a good end to every strenght debate. However, as well noted posts above, Boo Arc's conclusion had a plot twist transferring the spotlight from Gohan to Goku, I risk in the moment Evil Boo didn't change to Pure Evil Boo, but instead to Kid Boo, or even when Evil Boo absorbed Gotenks. I would say it is even embarassing to admit SS3 Goku looks the strongest Z-Fighter after living about 10 years thinking otherwise. This 13th movie is a perfect example that Goku's strenght is not that consistent. Even the guidebooks care not to mention SS3 Goku or Goku in general when the strenght comparisons aren't as obvious as possible.

That's not "poorly described", it's simply describing an event that did not happen.

What event that did not happen? I don't know if you mean Hirudegarn is weaker or stronger than Goku, rather than even. What is the problem with accepting the statement as a fact? It just points out that Hirudegarn is the second strongest villain, because Janenba could beat Goku, while himself was at most Goku's level by saying they "traded blows evenly". By "poorly described", I mean I would give a description like "The phantom majin that gave a hard time to the Z-Fighters, but was at last defeated by Goku's new technique, the Ryuken! Since he fought evenly with SS3 Goku, the same that was beat back by Janenba, strenght-wise he is the No.2 movie villain." Well, I don't think it can be more specific than that, I apreciate any help.

What information? Broly and Cooler being stronger than SS3 and SS2 Goku?

I just noted you've used these examples as a way to disregard whatever is "official" called that don't fit in your standards. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong. I mean, discussing the battle power's numbers by themselves, they don't exactly suggest what you've said or do you think [Boo Arc] SS Goku's true power should be only at 3.000 kiri? Even in an in-universe perspective it would be incoherent, since Base Goku should be close to Yakon, who was at 800 kiri. Of course, this is a theory of mine.

So, in other words, they didn't trade blows equally? The old website was describing something that didn't actually happen?

Now I understand, you mean the events that did not happen is the "trading blows" thing. However, what would sound better than "traded blows evenly"? Something like "fought evenly"? I guess this is the point.

[RandomGuy96]

Then, you think that cutting Hirudegarn's tail made him weaker than SS3 Gotenks for SS3 Goku to be able to fight him?

That's what I think. But at the very least, we know that destroying his tail was a grevious injury, as the tail seemed to be an important part of his biology, and he vomited blood when it was cut off. Injuries make you weaker.

And Ryuken is so powerful that would make Goku looks (suppose) 10 times stronger than he actually is?

Yes. Did you see what it did in GT?

They never said Hirudegarn lost power, it should be something worth noting if the difference between their powers was so drastic.

Like when everyone noted that SS Gohan's ki didn't actually disappear after Cell hit him? That such a ki didn't go from "stronger than SS Goku" to "zero"?

But they detected his weakness when he attacks, which is actually the main point of defeating Hirudegarn. Ryuken most likely consists in concentrating all of Goku's battle power in his fist, like he did against Piccolo Daimaou when we see the image of an Oozaru instead of a Golden Dragon.

Nope. We see that this attack allows him to hit FAR outside of his own weight class. Not only here, but in GT too.

Goku beat Majin Boo with a Super Genkidama, why use this as an example, really? By the way, SS3 Goku couldn't beat Pure Boo in an one-on-one match, besides previous statements suggesting otherwise.

I'm using it because it's an absolutely perfect example of the logic you're trying to use. SS3 Goku did beat Hildegarn, sure, but he used a super haxxed technique to do it, and couldn't defeat him normally. It's no different than SS Goku using a super powerful technique to defeat Pure Buu.

I'm afraid this may end up in a Goku vs Gohan & Gotenks debate, I really don't want to make the discussion to take that direction, my apologizes, but I don't like to see people tossing around manga establishs that Goku is weaker than Gotenks & Gohan as if it were a fact, even when they have good evidences to back their opinions up

Yeah, no compromise here. Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Goku, that's a fact, it's stated over a dozen times and never contradicted, anyone who says otherwise is being willingly blind or has been mislead from only seeing the self-contradictory anime.

. Personally, I believe the statements are very clear to build up the idea of the new generation being stronger than the previous, as far as to put a good end to every strenght debate. However, as well noted posts above, Boo Arc's conclusion had a plot twist transferring the spotlight from Gohan to Goku, I risk in the moment Evil Boo didn't change to Pure Evil Boo, but instead to Kid Boo, or even when Evil Boo absorbed Gotenks.

What does that have to do with anything?

I would say it is even embarassing to admit SS3 Goku looks the strongest Z-Fighter after living about 10 years thinking otherwise. This 13th movie is a perfect example that Goku's strenght is not that consistent.

No, it's a perfect example that Toei gives zero shits about consistency. Not that we didn't already know that. The manga is VERY consistent about where Goku stands.

Even the guidebooks care not to mention SS3 Goku or Goku in general when the strenght comparisons aren't as obvious as possible.

Why should they? The manga itself already did! Why would a guidebook need to state, for example, post-zenkai Vegeta is stronger than Cui?

Also, some books do talk about Goku compared to Gohan and Gotenks. Albeit indirectly. All of the comparisons favor Gohan and Gotenks.

What is the problem with accepting the statement as a fact? It just points out that Hirudegarn is the second strongest villain, because Janenba could beat Goku, while himself was at most Goku's level by saying they "traded blows evenly By "poorly described", I mean I would give a description like "The phantom majin that gave a hard time to the Z-Fighters, but was at last defeated by Goku's new technique, the Ryuken! Since he fought evenly with SS3 Goku, the same that was beat back by Janenba, strenght-wise he is the No.2 movie villain." Well, I don't think it can be more specific than that, I apreciate any help.

Because they never traded blows evenly. The line is referencing something that didn't happen. It's like saying that Cooler is stronger than everyone up to that point because "he traded blows evenly with Super Saiyan Goku". It also is not considering anything into the equation other than "Hildegarn lost to Goku, Janemba beat him, Janemba > Hildegarn". It'd be like if a guidebook came out and said this:

"The pure Majin Buu is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since No. 19 from the previous storyline could beat back Super Saiyan Goku, who defeated Majin Buu, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of Goku's opponents."

I just noted you've used these examples as a way to disregard whatever is "official" called that don't fit in your standards. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong. I mean, discussing the battle power's numbers by themselves, they don't exactly suggest what you've said or do you think [Boo Arc] SS Goku's true power should be only at 3.000 kiri? Even in an in-universe perspective it would be incoherent, since Base Goku should be close to Yakon, who was at 800 kiri. Of course, this is a theory of mine.

Wait, what? I'm simply saying that the 'official' material said SS Goku in the Buu arc has a battle power equal to himself in the Freeza arc, which obviously isn't true.

Now I understand, you mean the events that did not happen is the "trading blows" thing. However, what would sound better than "traded blows evenly"? Something like "fought evenly"? I guess this is the point.

No, that wouldn't be any better, because they didn't fight evenly. Again, Hildegarn just beat on Goku, then Goku used his a special technique and one-shotted Hildegarn.

[RandomGuy96]

The difference in power between SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is not that far like some of you always intended to show.

You yourself said you thought SS Gotenks was four times stronger than SS Goku, didn't you? That's really the bare minimum here, for everything to make sense.

Movie 13 comes after a few years of the Boo saga. Of course Goku has continued his training and has increased his powers and learn Ryu Ken but still not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan.
Hildegarn is stronger than those 3 ( I have Hildegarn at Gohan Boo level and Super Janemba at Super Boo level ).

Goku could actually put up a fight against Janemba. No way Janemba's anywhere near Super Buu.

Full power Ultimate Gohan can't do any harm to Hildegarns half body who is weaker than his full body. But, in that first fight Gohan discovers HIldegarns weakness just after throw the energy ball and for that, he test his discovery when Hildegarn prepares to stomp him with his foot.

But wasn't Hildegarn's bottom half not able to touch Ultimate Gohan either? And Ultimate Gohan has to be stronger than both halves and his complete form, since SS3 Gotenks was able to dominate his complete form.

It doesn't matter if Trunks cut Hildegarns tail, no one of those 3 can beat ( only with an special technique like Ryu Ken, Vegetto or Gogeta ) Hildegarn on one on one figth even without his tail. Kakarotto beat Hildegarn because he also discovered his weakness and therefore use their newly super powerful technique learned in his training, nothing else. That's why " If Gokū Can't Do It, Who Will " sentence!

Hildegarn had a major part of his biology severed (as indicated by the absorption earlier in the movie) and vomited blood. He's obviously not in his best health at the moment Goku kills him. Also, we never saw Gohan or Gotenks try to fight tail-less Hildegarn.

Goku tanked the HIldegarn punches is not only because he have the greatest willpower, is also because SSJ3 Goku is stronger than you guys always think.

No matter how strong you think Goku is, he should still be reduced to a stain from a hit enough to one-shot SS3 Gotenks, who is said to be much stronger than Goku numerous times.

[Saiga]

I am in agreement that Hirudegarn lost power after having his tail cut off. I actually just finished watching the movie, and though it was only the English dub, there was a line from Tapion that the lifeforce of his people was trapped in Hirudegarn. I really do think he's just like Cell, absorbing people and gaining their strength, with the difference being that he loses his strength when his tail is removed.

The stuff about Hirudegarn's weakness being strong emotions was just some dub only crap, right? Because that came out of nowhere.

Gohan, earlier: "He becomes solid before he attacks!"
Gohan, later: "Dad, his weakness is-"
Goku: "Yeah, I know. Strong emotions weaken him".
Gohan: "Uh, what?"

[Kaboom]

The stuff about Hirudegarn's weakness being strong emotions was just some dub only crap, right? Because that came out of nowhere.

Yep. In the original, SSJ3 Goku reminds himself and the audience of the "solid and vulnerable when attacking" weakness in that moment after Gohan speaks up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I know this is a random question, but can Hirudegarn actually understand what they're saying? He seemed to get more and more agitated when Goku kept saying stuff to him.

[MDSTSSJ]

You yourself said you thought SS Gotenks was four times stronger than SS Goku, didn't you? That's really the bare minimum here, for everything to make sense.

No! I believe Boo Arc SSJ3 Gotenks is four times stronger than Boo Arc SSJ3 Goku.

Goku could actually put up a fight against Janemba. No way Janemba's anywhere near Super Buu.

Yes, Goku put up a fight against him but Super Janemba was not fighting with his true power. Super Janemba true power is when he powering up against Gogeta.

But wasn't Hildegarn's bottom half not able to touch Ultimate Gohan either? And Ultimate Gohan has to be stronger than both halves and his complete form, since SS3 Gotenks was able to dominate his complete form.

Ultimate Gohan never showed power to defeat Hildegarn. Full power U. Gohan punches the lower half part of Hildegarn's body ( who is weaker than his complete body and even more weaker than his second form ) with 0 damage. SSJ3 Gotenks dominates in skill and speed but never in power. Hildegarn super power is far superior than his own speed and technique.

Hildegarn had a major part of his biology severed (as indicated by the absorption earlier in the movie) and vomited blood. He's obviously not in his best health at the moment Goku kills him. Also, we never saw Gohan or Gotenks try to fight tail-less Hildegarn.

Yes, the tail is an important part of Hildegarn body but we do not see anyone say that it has lost much of his power. Maybe he lost power but not much. I do not remember well but Freezer lost his tail and no power lost.

No matter how strong you think Goku is, he should still be reduced to a stain from a hit enough to one-shot SS3 Gotenks, who is said to be much stronger than Goku numerous times.

In this movie the thing is different. SSJ3 Gotenks did nothing to stop the blow while Goku was prepared to take hits.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The difference in power between SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is not that far like some of you always intended to show.

Toriyama said that he wanted to create something that was stronger than Super Saiyan, and he came up with Fusion, meaning that Fusion has a bigger multiplier than SS, which is a x50. From their feats, we can see that the kids are at less than x2 times weaker than the adults, but let's assume that they are exactly x2 weaker, and also assume that the Fusion multiplier is x51 (to keep Gotenks as weak as possible), and also follow the multipliers for SEG:

Goku: 10
SS Goku: 500
SS2 Goku: 1.000
SS3 Goku: 4.000

Goten: 5
SS Goten: 250
Gotenks: 255
SS Gotenks: 12.750
SS3 Gotenks: 102.000


Now, Goten & Trunks are stronger than that, and got even stronger after training inside RoSaT, and the Fusion multiplier should be bigger than that realistically. And if we take the statement that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after RoSaT as base Gotenks (post) > SS2 Vegeta, then that makes the Fusion multiplier bigger than the SS2 multiplier, which is x100.

So, even if you go purely by the manga & Toriyama and make up your own multipliers, SS Gotenks will always end up stronger than SS3 Goku, except if you believe for some reason that SS/2/3/Fusion multipliers are different for each user or something like that.

[khalildh]

Or... You know, Goten and Trunks are actually really weak compared to the Goku and Vegeta and are much weaker than 2x.