Why didn't Mr. Popo take down Daimao?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

See, this is what I dont understand. Why did Toriyama bother to add the retcon? If you remove that line, all it does is make Pure Buu appear weaker than Fat Buu. That's it.

I guess he didn't want Pure Boo to appear weaker than Fat Boo.

[ABED]

Was it necessary for Popo to be that much stronger than Goku when we first meet him?

Yes, it taught to Goku that there are more than 1 guys stronger than him.

As for the retcon, it may had been a retcon in Toriyama's mind, but in-universe, Goku was lying the whole time because he didn't want to reveal Super Saiyan 3. Same about later, when he admits that he could have beaten Innocent Boo if he wanted to do so, but lied that he couldn't have beaten him. So it doesn't matter if it was a retcon or not in the In-Universe Discussion forum. He lied to give himself a challenging fight with Vegeta & didn't want to waste his time on the Living World, and he lied to give the kids a chance to save the Earth, so that they can grow stronger through that situation, and they would be able to defend the Earth again in the future if a stronger enemy was to appear.

And in doing so he creates a big plot hole that he plugs with "it's not his place." I'm referring to both Popo and Goku.

The in universe explanation doesn't make sense, when does Goku lie like that? It makes no sense that he would fight Vegeta just for kicks and release Buu when he has no intention of fighting him. Toriyama is forced to make Goku act out of character to make up for an error. It doesn't make sense in universe. You don't have to repeat the story back to me, I'm well aware of what happens, though I have no idea what you mean that he didn't want to waste his time on the Living World. Lastly, Goku loves a challenge and pushing himself to the limit, but if it's not a retcon, Goku is lying to himself and the fight wouldn't push him to the limit, neither of those things mesh with what we know of Goku.

[Kid Buu]

Man I don't know if I hear "Gohan was out-of-character in the Cell Arc" or "Goku was out-of-character in the Buu arc" more.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And in doing so he creates a big plot hole that he plugs with "it's not his place." I'm referring to both Popo and Goku.

It's not a plot hole, if Kami & Goku were not responsible for Daimao's & Boo's creation & revival respectively, I would be 100% with them on their decisions, and I would have done the same as well. Gods & dead people aren't the ones that should solve the problems of the mortals, like parents shouldn't solve all of their kids' problems. Some times, the kids have to stand in their own feet, and overcome their problems, so that they will be able to overcome greater problems in the future. If a young adult doesn't want to get a job because he has his dad to pay everything for him, he will never become independent. If a kid has his mom doing all of his homework for him, he will never finish school. If Goku had killed Boo, the kids wouldn't be strong enough to defeat an enemy stronger than Boo, and there won't be Goku there to save them next time because he is dead.

The in universe explanation doesn't make sense, when does Goku lie like that?[/quote]
Since 7 years after the Cell Games? Say hello to character development.

[Kid Buu]

Well in BoG even Master Roshi says its questionable if Goku has a good heart or not, so I guess even Toriyama wonders.

[Vice]

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

[rereboy]

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

Assume that God exists. Why doesn't he stop all the bad stuff?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'm not saying they couldn't, but I have been starting to entertain the thought that Kami and Popo may not have even been able to leave the sanctuary to stop Daimao if they had wanted to. At least, not without great effort. I mean, we're told that the temple is in another dimension until it is connected with Karin's Tower via the Nyoibo, and that doesn't happen until after Goku beats Piccolo...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

FUNimation logic, actually. Kami is literally the God of Earth. He isn't the "Guardian of Earth", or "Old Green", or anything like that.

[dbzfan7]

What DBZGTKOSDH said. Even if it was a retcon (I don't think it is as he's done this before) In-universe he still acted the same way Kami did

[Gaffer Tape]

While I'm certainly on board with the idea that God shouldn't solve all of humanity's problems, Piccolo is a hard one to justify, and not just because it was a problem that God himself created. From a theistic perspective, the fact that people die because of it might be seen as okay. But let's not forget that all those who are killed by mazoku cannot pass on to the next life. So not only is this a problem that God himself created and shuffles his feet to take responsibility for, but in doing so he's dooming all those who came into contact with him an eternity of suffering.

Yeah... Some God...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe the gods, the attendants, and the dead people aren't allowed to solve Living World problems (from someone like Enma Daio), even if they are responsible? Maybe that's why Kami possessed Shen, so that he can do it in secret.

[Gaffer Tape]

Maybe the gods, the attendants, and the dead people aren't allowed to solve Living World problems (from someone like Enma Daio), even if they are responsible? Maybe that's why Kami possessed Shen, so that he can do it in secret.

Considering how open he was about his "secret" I find that justification a bit hard to swallow. He hinted his identity to both Yamucha and Goku and then started speaking to Ma in his native tongue? Yeah, good job hiding your identity there.

[Attitudefan]

Didn't the niyobo serve as a connector to heaven (the lookout) and the mortal realm of earth? Kami and Popo could not have gone down since the pole that serves as a connector of the two realms had been severed. That's why no one could fly up there or see it in the sky because it wasn't there in that dimension without the niyobo. I thought that is how it works or am I wrong?

[Gokuden]

Maybe the gods, the attendants, and the dead people aren't allowed to solve Living World problems (from someone like Enma Daio), even if they are responsible? Maybe that's why Kami possessed Shen, so that he can do it in secret.

Considering how open he was about his "secret" I find that justification a bit hard to swallow. He hinted his identity to both Yamucha and Goku and then started speaking to Ma in his native tongue? Yeah, good job hiding your identity there.

At that point in time, Piccolo was considered a demon, and it wouldn't be strange enough to find wacky occultists who could speak some devilish sentences. All Shen was missing was black clothing, a goatee, and a pentagram to channel the demons.

If you go to Japan's Shinto temples, you'll find stubs of paper with inscriptions on them to ward off the demons, and considering this anime/manga is based in Japan, I don't think anybody would think twice.

That toaster even had some crazy occult markings on it, right? There you go, deranged occultist vs green vegetable demon.



I don't think a scrawny individual like Shen would be mistaken for God, regardless of who took control of his vessel.

I think Kami had a brilliant plan.

[GS7X7]

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

Assume that God exists. Why doesn't he stop all the bad stuff?

God kinda seems like a dick when you think about it.

He sits back and lets various religion fight each other with swords at one another's throats for centuries (Catholics vs. Protestants vs. Orthodox vs. Sunni vs. Shia vs. Scientology vs. etc.) instead of just coming down, proving it's him, and creating a 100% definitive book of his laws that everybody can agree on without arguing/fighting about it so much.

It's easy to say, "it's not his place to intervene," but if your family was being massacred for its religion that's probably not what your dying thoughts would be.

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

FUNimation logic, actually. Kami is literally the God of Earth. He isn't the "Guardian of Earth", or "Old Green", or anything like that.

-------
The cartoon is based on a Chinese legend about a dragon that existed before land and water, Cocanougher said. The plot twists and turns as the superhuman Goku, who sports a tail and carries a magic stick, and a blue-haired teen-age girl named Bulma travel through exotic lands and take on fierce monsters in search of seven magical balls. Once assembled, the balls will bring the Eternal Dragon out of hiding to grant a wish.

Even the dragon has gone through some scrutiny in preparation for American viewers. In the Japanese original, he's a dragon god.

"We talked to several priests and ministers, and most didn't have a problem with that, but they said some people might," Cocanougher said. "So we changed it to Eternal Dragon."
-------

http://www.animecauldron.com/dbzuncenso ... tsteps.htm

Indeed. Still....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFyAezUPIsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Mb9Tv7Zqo

I don't think his fears were justified, I don't recall anyone boycotting these tv shows.

Btw, do the subs still insist on leaving Kami untranslated? That's always bothered me and it felt like it was a translation-request made at Funimation's behest.

But let's not forget that all those who are killed by mazoku cannot pass on to the next life. .....

Yeah... Some God...

I'm not too in-depth with Japanese mythology. Is that a common belief there?

Also, does the DB universe make reference to this anywhere? I last viewed P.D. on some dogged old fansubs so I may have missed that line.

[Gaffer Tape]

At that point in time, Piccolo was considered a demon, and it wouldn't be strange enough to find wacky occultists who could speak some devilish sentences. All Shen was missing was black clothing, a goatee, and a pentagram to channel the demons.

If you go to Japan's Shinto temples, you'll find stubs of paper with inscriptions on them to ward off the demons, and considering this anime/manga is based in Japan, I don't think anybody would think twice.

That toaster even had some crazy occult markings on it, right? There you go, deranged occultist vs green vegetable demon.

I don't think a scrawny individual like Shen would be mistaken for God, regardless of who took control of his vessel.

I think Kami had a brilliant plan.

I'm honestly not at all sure what you're trying to say, but, then again, my mind is still reeling from a particularly deep nap, so maybe that's why. But I still get the impression you're missing the point. First of all, no one (except Tenshinhan) realized that Ma was a mazoku until he lost his turban. So, no, there's no reason Shen would have been going for a "deranged occultist vs. green vegetable demon" look. Shen wasn't supposed to look like an occultist. He was supposed to look like an unassuming middle-aged man. And how can you say he wouldn't be mistaken for God? He was! Goku almost immediately figured it out. Yamucha figured out he was unearthly, and Shen was kind enough to confirm it. He winks at them about it. He figuratively mugs the camera over the whole idea. That's my point. The theory that DBZGTKOSDH was that God was strictly not allowed by his superiors to interfere in earthly matters, and that Shen was a disguise. I'm saying if that was the case, and there was so much at stake, he would not have been so cavalier about letting that secret out to people like Goku and Yamucha. He seems positively playful about the fact that he came down from heaven to do this. That is not the behavior of a person who is afraid he's going to be found out.

I'm not too in-depth with Japanese mythology. Is that a common belief there?

Also, does the DB universe make reference to this anywhere? I last viewed P.D. on some dogged old fansubs so I may have missed that line.

I have no idea about Japanese mythology. What I'm saying comes directly from the series. Karin tells Goku that the souls of those killed by the mazoku cannot pass on. Later on, when God and Popo talk about whether or not the new Piccolo is still as evil, they use the fact that Raditz actually DID pass on to the next life as an example.

[Gokuden]

At that point in time, Piccolo was considered a demon, and it wouldn't be strange enough to find wacky occultists who could speak some devilish sentences. All Shen was missing was black clothing, a goatee, and a pentagram to channel the demons.

If you go to Japan's Shinto temples, you'll find stubs of paper with inscriptions on them to ward off the demons, and considering this anime/manga is based in Japan, I don't think anybody would think twice.

That toaster even had some crazy occult markings on it, right? There you go, deranged occultist vs green vegetable demon.

I don't think a scrawny individual like Shen would be mistaken for God, regardless of who took control of his vessel.

I think Kami had a brilliant plan.

I'm honestly not at all sure what you're trying to say, but, then again, my mind is still reeling from a particularly deep nap, so maybe that's why. But I still get the impression you're missing the point. First of all, no one (except Tenshinhan) realized that Ma was a mazoku until he lost his turban. So, no, there's no reason Shen would have been going for a "deranged occultist vs. green vegetable demon" look. Shen wasn't supposed to look like an occultist. He was supposed to look like an unassuming middle-aged man. And how can you say he wouldn't be mistaken for God? He was! Goku almost immediately figured it out. Yamucha figured out he was unearthly, and Shen was kind enough to confirm it. He winks at them about it. He figuratively mugs the camera over the whole idea. That's my point. The theory that DBZGTKOSDH was that God was strictly not allowed by his superiors to interfere in earthly matters, and that Shen was a disguise. I'm saying if that was the case, and there was so much at stake, he would not have been so cavalier about letting that secret out to people like Goku and Yamucha. He seems positively playful about the fact that he came down from heaven to do this. That is not the behavior of a person who is afraid he's going to be found out.

I was talking from the crowd's perspective, nobody figured out that Shen was actually a vessel for Kami. I thought he succeeded in fooling the public, and that was probably his goal, along with containing Ma. The chosen ones, who later came to train with him weren't the ones he aimed to hide himself from.

I would assume uttering some foreign litany, and carrying a seal would probably come off as occultist to the Japanese audience. Which is why I say that Ma appeared to be a demon at that point in time.

I'm not arguing your points, I'm just saying that Kami fooled the simple souls in the audience, minus Roshi.

[UpFromTheSkies]

It isn't the Earth guardian's job to guard the Earth.

Toriyama logic.

Assume that God exists. Why doesn't he stop all the bad stuff?

God kinda seems like a dick when you think about it.

He sits back and lets various religion fight each other with swords at one another's throats for centuries (Catholics vs. Protestants vs. Orthodox vs. Sunni vs. Shia vs. Scientology vs. etc.) instead of just coming down, proving it's him, and creating a 100% definitive book of his laws that everybody can agree on without arguing/fighting about it so much.

It's easy to say, "it's not his place to intervene," but if your family was being massacred for its religion that's probably not what your dying thoughts would be.

So you want the world to be ruled by a totalitarian dictator with infinite power? Where should the line be drawn between good and evil? Should evil thoughts be punished? If the dictator is also omniscient, should he punish evil before it even happens, like in Minority Report?

That kind of world sounds rather frightening, I'd rather the human race be allowed to grow and mature on its own, and work its problems out itself.

[Gaffer Tape]

I was talking from the crowd's perspective, nobody figured out that Shen was actually a vessel for Kami. I thought he succeeded in fooling the public, and that was probably his goal, along with containing Ma. The chosen ones, who later came to train with him weren't the ones he aimed to hide himself from.

I would assume uttering some foreign litany, and carrying a seal would probably come off as occultist to the Japanese audience. Which is why I say that Ma appeared to be a demon at that point in time.

I'm not arguing your points, I'm just saying that Kami fooled the simple souls in the audience, minus Roshi.

Yes, but again, DBZGTKOSDH's theory (which is what I'm refuting) was that he was hiding from his heavenly superiors (including the guy who keeps a record of all the good and bad things you've done during your life), not the crowd. So in that case, revealing yourself to *anyone*, "chosen ones" or not, would be tactical suicide and why I think his theory is unsound.