Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[Galan007]

That being said, now we know Freeza has another transformation:

Is that what the text says?

[Kaboom]

The odds are incredibly high that Freeza's new "transformation" will be a newly-bestowed godly state of some sort. We already saw the upper limits of Freeza's own normal power when he lost to a Super Saiyan twice in a row. He's not going to just have some further form that he could have achieved all along.

[kuartus4]

That being said, now we know Freeza has another transformation:

Is that what the text says?

Yeah, at least according to dragon ball wikia. According to the wiki, the text says, "Allow me to show you....my further transformation!!!"

The fact that it states "further" instead of "new" makes me think that its something that was already known, and not newly discovered.

[Galan007]

Interesting. If that translation is accurate, then to me it does imply that Freeza has discovered a new transformation--one we've not yet seen. Hopefully that isn't the case, though, as I would find it laughably stupid if Freeza 'pulled a Cooler' and metamorphosed into a 5th form.

Tbh, I'd much rather see Freeza somehow attain 'Godly' power. Perhaps have him acquire said power by taking the place of another universe's God of Destruction(not unlike the proposition Beerus offered Goku after they fought.) I think that might make for a somewhat interesting plot... Moreso then introducing some ridiculous 5th form, at least. Blah.

[Darkron2151]

Yeah, at least according to dragon ball wikia. According to the wiki, the text says, "Allow me to show you....my further transformation!!!"

The fact that it states "further" instead of "new" makes me think that its something that was already known, and not newly discovered.

Just because it says "further", doesn't mean it's not new. If it wasn't newly discovered, then why doesn't anyone know about it and why didn't he transform into it back on Namek? He said he'd power up to 100% and yet still got beat by Goku. So why would he lie continue to take the beating if he had another, MUCH stronger transformation all along? Wouldn't you think that that would be a good time to use that transformation?

For all we know, that line could be a direct quote from the upcoming movie, so we're just gonna have to wait it out as far as power readings and comparisons at this point.

[kuartus4]

Yeah, at least according to dragon ball wikia. According to the wiki, the text says, "Allow me to show you....my further transformation!!!"

The fact that it states "further" instead of "new" makes me think that its something that was already known, and not newly discovered.

Just because it says "further", doesn't mean it's not new. If it wasn't newly discovered, then why doesn't anyone know about it and why didn't he transform into it back on Namek? He said he'd power up to 100% and yet still got beat by Goku. So why would he lie continue to take the beating if he had another, MUCH stronger transformation all along? Wouldn't you think that that would be a good time to use that transformation?

For all we know, that line could be a direct quote from the upcoming movie, so we're just gonna have to wait it out as far as power readings and comparisons at this point.

If it was new, then why didn't he just say new? And who says nobody knows about it? Perhaps both Freeza and Beerus knew about it. As to why he didn't use it on Namek, I already answered that. Admittedly I'm speculating, but its a possible explanation IMO. Freeza knew about super saiyan god, so who's to say he wasn't already acquainted with his own godly form?

[Hitiro]

Maybe Freeza's other transformation requires a magic ritual that only Sorbet and Tagoma know how to perform, and since neither of these dudes were on Namek, Freeza couldn't access it.

Magic is a bit of a far stretch. Seeing as Freeza is a being that relies on Ki. That's like saying Goku could go SSJWizard, which is better than SSJGod, because of some magical ritual. I also don't see why he wouldn't keep these two characters around if they're the only ones who know how to perform the transformation. Even if Freeza doesn't require the transformation it would be good to have them around just as an assurance.

If it was new, then why didn't he just say new? And who says nobody knows about it? Perhaps both Freeza and Beerus knew about it. As to why he didn't use it on Namek, I already answered that. Admittedly I'm speculating, but its a possible explanation IMO. Freeza knew about super saiyan god, so who's to say he wasn't already acquainted with his own godly form?

If he did have another transformation. Why did he not bring it up on Namek? Even if he couldn't use the technique why did he not say "Damn it! If only I could use my further transformation!"? And I don't believe Freeza knew about SSJGod. I don't think Battle of Gods ever makes that suggestion. The only person who seemed to know was Beerus. Beerus thought a Saiyan used SSJGod to beat Freeza(Admittedly it would make sense when the Saiyan's base forms were much weaker because SSJGod is a much larger increase in power). But then he found out that Goku and the rest of them used the regular SSJ transformations.

[dbgtFO]

And I don't believe Freeza knew about SSJGod. I don't think Battle of Gods ever makes that suggestion. The only person who seemed to know was Beerus.

Freeza mentioned Super Saiyan God in DB minus.

[Galan007]

And I don't believe Freeza knew about SSJGod. I don't think Battle of Gods ever makes that suggestion. The only person who seemed to know was Beerus.

Freeza mentioned Super Saiyan God in DB minus.

http://i.imgur.com/VRGZ6ND.png

[Hitiro]

Freeza mentioned Super Saiyan God in DB minus.

Well, in DB Minus maybe. I have not read DB Minus so I wouldn't know. But in BoG I don't believe it is ever implied that he knew about that legend.

[freezamite]

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

[Hitiro]

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

What do you mean by this?

[dbgtFO]

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

What do you mean by this?

One of his arguments in you two's long debates about Freeza, SS Goku and SS Trunks is that base state never increases after unlocking SS, as per Vegeta's comment, that he realized his limit before turning SS.

[Galan007]

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

What do you mean by this?

One of his arguments in you two's long debates about Freeza, SS Goku and SS Trunks is that base state never increases after unlocking SS, as per Vegeta's comment, that he realized his limit before turning SS.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but this notion was kind of supported during the Buu saga. When Goku powered up to a SSJ on board Babidi's ship, his kili rating=3,000. This would put his base-level kili rating at 60(3,000/50). And 60 kili * 50,000PL per kili=3,000,000--the same PL he possessed on Namek.

Just throwing that out there... /shrug

[Hitiro]

One of his arguments in you two's long debates about Freeza, SS Goku and SS Trunks is that base state never increases after unlocking SS, as per Vegeta's comment, that he realized his limit before turning SS.

Except the manga makes mention of Saiyan's hitting their "limit" several times in the manga, especially in the Namek arc, and the Saiyan's always seem to break their limits. We even have King Kai saying that it seems like Goku doesn't have a limit before he even transforms into a SSJ. Also the whole question of why would Goku be training in his base form after he gets his SSJ forms if he couldn't increase his base battle power?

But it's up to him if he honestly believes that Saiyan's can't get stronger in their base forms.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but wasn't this notion also supported during the Buu saga? When Goku powered up to a SSJ on board Babidi's ship, his kili rating=3,000. This would put his base-level kili rating at 60(3,000/50). And 60 kili * 50,000 per kili=3,000,000--the same PL he possessed on Namek.

Just throwing that out there... /shrug

How does that support it exactly? I'm not sure what you are doing with those numbers. All I see from what you are doing is using numbers to scale the kili counter to his base level on Namek. Where are your numbers coming from exactly? Where did this 50,000 come from for example?

[dbgtFO]

That would also make his SS form the same as it officially was on Namek, though, which it obviously wasn't.
I don't know who this "DB professor" is and while it may have appeared in weekly jump or v-jump, I find it extremely questionable.

[Galan007]

How does that support it exactly? I'm not sure what you are doing with those numbers. All I see from what you are doing is using numbers to scale the kili counter to his base level on Namek. Where are your numbers coming from exactly? Where did this 50,000 come from for example?

According to V-Jump, 1 kili=50,000BP:
http://i.imgur.com/cFVLr7p.jpg
So if SSJ Goku=3,000 kili, then base Goku=60 kili. This equates to a base PL of 3,000,000.

Not saying that's 100% incontrovertible--just going by the numerics provided, is all.

[Hitiro]

How does that support it exactly? I'm not sure what you are doing with those numbers. All I see from what you are doing is using numbers to scale the kili counter to his base level on Namek. Where are your numbers coming from exactly? Where did this 50,000 come from for example?

According to V-Jump, 1 kili=50,000BP:
http://i.imgur.com/cFVLr7p.jpg
So if SSJ Goku=3,000 kili, then base Goku=60 kili. This equates to a base PL of 3,000,000.

Not saying that's 100% incontrovertible--just going by the numerics provided, is all.

Right, I see. But then we don't know if Goku was fighting suppressed when he was a SSJ? Not that I consider the V-Jump Q&A an actual basis for the manga. But Goku at 150 million(3,000 Kiri) should not be Goku fighting at 100% otherwise in all this time Goku hasn't gotten stronger at all. Right? XD

[Galan007]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying the equation I provided is 100% infallible--like you said: SSJ Goku may have very well have been suppressed. Those numerics just fit strangely well, is all...

[Hitiro]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying the equation I provided is 100% infallible--like you said: SSJ Goku may have very well have been suppressed. Those numerics just fit strangely well, is all...

They do fit well. But only because Goku happened to be at 3,000 kili when he transformed. Had he been at 10,000 kili you could have easily gone 200(10,000/50) and 200 kili * 50,000 BP per kili = 10,000,000.