Torishima's thoughts on when the series should've ended

[Attitudefan]

Android/Cell arc is at the very least as good if not better than Saiyan/Freea arc so honestly, he's just wrong

Not at all. The Cell arc is so weak in comparison with no clear antagonist, and when there is, it jsut seems like a cop out of Freeza and Piccolo. There was nothing new, and Cell's fights were extremely lame. Plus, all of the Androids had very little direction or motivation and just seems contrived. Honestly, the whole Cell/Android arc seems like such an ass pull to try to keep the series continuing after climaxing the plot at Freeza.

Goku's story arc was over, yet the very next arc tried to keep him the main guy, until the last minute, and decided to take Gohan's story arc away in the Boo arc. So there was no payoff with Gohan at all.

Vegeta... well, it really doesn't make any sense for him to be on Earth and be all chummy with the Goku and co. And then there are the Earthlings... they are chummy with BOTH Piccolo and Vegeta when just a few years before they were terrified of both of them. Only Gohan feels comfortable around Piccolo. Yamcha, Ten, and Chioutzu barely spoke to Piccolo in death; Piccolo was only there for about 3 months and meditated that whole time and did not get along with the others. Piccolo only came back to fight Freeza and spent only a few minutes with Krillin and Gohan, where I am sure Krillin somewhat trusts Piccolo based on the fight with the Saiyans. However, Piccolo is still "bad" and unfriendly in Krillin's eyes. It is possible that Krillin might think different of Piccolo, at least to a small extent, since he sacrificed himself to save Gohan. However, that doesn't warrant them to be friends or even get along.

Piccolo did not respect any of the Earthlings, even when he got resurrected. Filler tries to portray that, but the manga shows no sign of warming up to the Earthlings at all. As far as the manga shows, Piccolo respects their courage but not their strength. He believes they are all beneath him. Unless Freeza scared everything that is holy into Piccolo, it makes no sense to why the Earthlings are nice to Piccolo. For Vegeta, there is no reason at all (no self-sacrifice, no saving lives, no moments of building a bond with any of the protagonists). Literally, Goku and co are friendly to him. Just a few hours before, Vegeta was trying to kill Krillin, Gohan, and Bulma, along with the intent to gain immortality and blow the Earth up (as stated by Vegeta when he recovers from the rejuvenation tank after his fight with Goku). Vegeta's plan was to gain immortality, blow up the Earth while redeeming his pride, and then overthrow Freeza! When did that change? In 6 days he changed his mind about all that?

Honestly, if he stayed dead, and the Cell arc continued, not much would change, as someone else could have easily replaced Vegeta. Trunks did not have to be Vegeta's son, nor did Trunks have to be a Saiyan or a human. Hell, it would have been cool if he was a cyborg himself, showing that transhuman people are even stronger than alien mutants (thus SHOWING US how strong Androids/Cyborgs are, stronger than the mutant Freeza and Goku, where artificial life is stronger than organics! That should have happened before revealing the main antagonists of Gero and his creations. Honestly, that would have been better story telling, where Trunks, as a Cyborg constructed by Bulma to fight Red Ribbon Cyborgs, as a measuring stick and yet, while stronger than Freeza, way weaker than the new threat!) That would have been so much better than throwing more SSJs everywhere and making the villains and Earthlings useless. In that potential story, everyone could have still been useful (and could be a joint effort from Bulma, Roshi, Ten, Yamcha, Goku and everyone else, to construct something and work together. The SSJ transformation wouldn't be relegated to every Saiyan, staying with Goku (and maybe Gohan if the arc ends relatively the same)....

Sorry, I'm ranting here, but I feel I explained how poor the Android arc begins and becomes. Another Super Saiyan should NOT have been another measuring stick, but something that is Artificial, something that we haven't seen before that is stronger than a SSJ yet is very similar to the Androids. Now THAT would have been the right way to do things. Yet, Trunks' canon introduction shows us how the series will progress where relevancy remains only with SSJs, as that is shown to be the measuring stick to defeat the strongest being in the universe. It doesn't have that wow factor, where something like an Artificial Trunks would create more shock, as something non-organic is really a threat, and is also great as an ally. Plus, Vegeta becoming a good guy out of thin air would have never happened, and he would have gotten closure to his sotry arc. The Freeza arc too, would be saved in terms of SSJ lore, and Freeza would have remained the strongest organic entity other than Goku!

The Cell arc is just disappointing. So many more avenues other than SSJs could have been explored, where the main group of heros all remain at the helm of the series main plot (or even major side plots). However, there was no direction in the Cell arc with multiple end antagonists that did not become the end, and shoehorning in SSJs to make up for the lack of forethought in the arc. The Freeza arc and many of the other previous arcs do not suffer as badly with a spontaneous plot since they are overall more simple. Plus, the antagonists were thought up of at the beginning of each arc rather than switching main villains partway through each specific story arc. The Cell arc and the Buu arc suffer from this, whereas the others don't. Freeza was always meant to be the final encounter with Goku; Vegeta was always meant to be the final battle; Piccolo was always the big bad; the tournaments always had the main villain introduced right at the beginning, and so on.

To sum up, it would have been better to show the Heros how much stronger a Cyborg is by having a plot point like Trunks be a cyborg himself. Diluting SSJs started with Trunks' introduction and could have been avoided completely. Too many characters personalities and motivations shifted suddenly for no reason. Plus, the lore of Dragonball and SSJs was retconned right after it was introduced because of having Vegeta live and Trunks be his son.

Basically, what I mean is that Toriyama could have done the Cell arc so much better after following the grandest adventure in the whole Dragonball series, with many points leading up to it (unintentionally of course) since the Piccolo arcs. The way he did handle the Cell arc, Dragonball would be much better off ending with just Freeza because it would remain with its integrity. Now it is relugated to Pokemon status with blue hair transformations and god forms for non-godly characters. Whatever happened to the heaven of the Piccolo Daimao arc? Everything has gone upside down and corporate since then and it is sad. More SSjs because more transformations means more for kids. That all began with the Cyborg arc and having multiple people with transformations when the lore shouldn't have allowed it, and keeping people alive, like Vegeta, does this effect also.

[ABED]

dbzfan, Yes, Gohan cowered, in the beginning, but by the end of it, he had matured. He cowers against Nappa, but against Vegeta, he finds his courage. He doesn't need to win to fully tap his potential. He was integral to that victory. I'm well aware that Gohan had more "hidden power" but it's cheap. He ALWAYS has more. It gets annoying after a while. Gohan can still have rage without it cheaply giving him the power to go up against beings he has no ability to fight otherwise. <br abp="812"><br abp="813">Goku's not a douche, and Goku doesn't need to change, but he doesn't become less naïve about the world as he grows up.<br abp="814"><br abp="815">It's not butting heads, that implies more than simple disagreement.

<br abp="816"><br abp="817">No denying the more potential card was dumb, but still it's basically a sin to never have it be fully realized. Tails had this in the comics and he never replaced Sonic. Gohan would have had one last moment on Freeza, and the story would end before we even find out what his full potential is. If the story was ended here, then they shouldn't have made Gohan that special in the beginning. There'd be no need to have him dwarf Goku as a toddler.<br abp="818"><br abp="819">A good character grows up and evolves, while the core of who they are stays intact. A character who never changes just remains the same and gets dull. Imagine if Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin, and everyone else never grew up. They'd be the same note and it'd be dull. Goku subtly grows more mature, with his last moment being accepting his Saiyan heritage. After that he's literally the same person. Train hard, beat bad guy, happy go lucky.<br abp="820"><br abp="821">When the disagreement basically is just "Nuh uh I think" it pretty much is.

It was fully realized and even if I agreed that it's a sin, it's a lesser sin than constantly going to that well. I honestly think that Gohan being essential to defeating Vegeta and becoming a valuable member of the team was Gohan fulfilling his potential. It's Toriyama who kept claiming he had more despite it being brought to the surface SEVERAL times.

A character that never changes gets dull to SOME. Kuririn more or less stays the same after he and Goku become friends. Piccolo and Vegeta had to change in order to stay in the series as good guys. And Gohan's a child, so naturally he's going to evolve. What I find interesting about Goku is how he reacts and how people who come into his life end up changing.

You can boil down all disagreements to "nuh uh, I think...".

Would someone please explain why my post looks like garbage with all this <br abp="816"><br abp="817"> crap?

The Cell arc is so weak in comparison with no clear antagonist, and when there is, it jsut seems like a cop out of Freeza and Piccolo.

So in other words, there's no clear antagonist, except that there is? There is a clear antagonist, it was all building towards Cell. There's a mystery surrounding the first part of the arc, which I found really interesting, but that doesn't make things unclear.

Vegeta... well, it really doesn't make any sense for him to be on Earth and be all chummy with the Goku and co. And then there are the Earthlings... they are chummy with BOTH Piccolo and Vegeta when just a few years before they were terrified of both of them. Only Gohan feels comfortable around Piccolo. Yamcha, Ten, and Chioutzu barely spoke to Piccolo in death; Piccolo was only there for about 3 months and meditated that whole time and did not get along with the others. Piccolo only came back to fight Freeza and spent only a few minutes with Krillin and Gohan, where I am sure Krillin somewhat trusts Piccolo based on the fight with the Saiyans. However, Piccolo is still "bad" and unfriendly in Krillin's eyes. It is possible that Krillin might think different of Piccolo, at least to a small extent, since he sacrificed himself to save Gohan. However, that doesn't warrant them to be friends or even get along.

Vegeta's not chummy with the Z team. Piccolo and Kuririn bonded through battle and by the end of the Freeza arc they were trusted allies. They were in the trenches together.

[The Monkey King]

Since I see the 'Z' portion of Dragon Ball being Gohan growing in order to surpass his father, I think as great and climactic as the Freeza saga was it shouldn't have ended there.

[jda95]

Since I see the 'Z' portion of Dragon Ball being Gohan growing in order to surpass his father, I think as great and climactic as the Freeza saga was it shouldn't have ended there.

That's the exact reason why I can't fathom Freeza being a possible endpoint. There's zero closure other than a big bad guy who influenced the past arc being defeated. I generally don't bother theorizing about where Toriyama wanted to end it because obviously he didn't want any enough other than after Boo, but Cell is definitely the cleanest cutoff in terms of tying everything up into a nice little bundle.

[dbzfan7]

]It was fully realized and even if I agreed that it's a sin, it's a lesser sin than constantly going to that well. I honestly think that Gohan being essential to defeating Vegeta and becoming a valuable member of the team was Gohan fulfilling his potential. It's Toriyama who kept claiming he had more despite it being brought to the surface SEVERAL times.

A character that never changes gets dull to SOME. Kuririn more or less stays the same after he and Goku become friends. Piccolo and Vegeta had to change in order to stay in the series as good guys. And Gohan's a child, so naturally he's going to evolve. What I find interesting about Goku is how he reacts and how people who come into his life end up changing.

You can boil down all disagreements to "nuh uh, I think...".

Having a massive rise and then drop rage boost on Freeza means is not reaching your full potential. His potential is hidden power. That was fully realized til the end of the Cell games, and then redone for the Boo arc. Just being a team player is not fully realizing one's potential.

Kuririn gets less cowardly and smarter over the course of the Dragon Ball. Afterwards his development takes a back seat to Piccolo and Vegeta. Piccolo and Vegeta didn't ave to change as Dragon Ball's first half ended with Piccolo being still evil, and most of Dragon Ball had Vegeta not be a good guy. He still was gonna kill Goku, and after that who knows where he'd have gone. Gohan evolves over the series. Goku is the one who acts the same all the time. Goku's not in some cartoon like Looney Tunes, and even in Looney Tunes Bugs Bunny changes sometimes from skit to skit to keep things interesting. Goku is in an ongoing series, and yet he acts the same and rinse repeats his personality. Train, beat up bad guy, naive, happy despite bad odds, indomitable will. It's the same. Like I said keeping the core of Goku is all fine and dandy, but expanding on that is something that is what makes a character interesting. Learning, growing, experiencing, changing, adapting, that's what makes a character feel real.

No disagreements usually don't go on with butting heads when it's clear there is disagreement on both sides, and neither have any intent of agreeing. So then it's just paragraph after paragraph of head butting til someone doesn't feel like bickering anymore.

[ABED]

Having a massive rise and then drop rage boost on Freeza means is not reaching your full potential. His potential is hidden power. That was fully realized til the end of the Cell games, and then redone for the Boo arc. Just being a team player is not fully realizing one's potential.

Then the Grand Elder's power up is utterly meaningless. The point of it was to pull out his hidden power. Notice that both Goku AND Vegeta receive massive power ups in this arc as well in order to allow them to fight Freeza. What to you constitutes realizing full potential? Being the main character and defeating the big bad?

I don't think Kuririn got smarter and he always remained "cowardly". Kuririn's character is someone who is frightened to do something but pushes through because he's brave and a hero.

but expanding on that is something that is what makes a character interesting.

You keep saying that, but interesting to whom? Clearly millions find him interesting without needing to see him change.

... that's what makes a character feel real.

Though generally real people don't change much. It's incredibly difficult.

No disagreements usually don't go on with butting heads when it's clear there is disagreement on both sides, and neither have any intent of agreeing. So then it's just paragraph after paragraph of head butting til someone doesn't feel like bickering anymore.

But the point is not intending to agree on something. Discussions are about exchanging ideas and enjoying conversing with someone even if they don't agree. Disagreement isn't bickering. You are more than welcome to end the conversation if you consider this bickering.

but Cell is definitely the cleanest cutoff in terms of tying everything up into a nice little bundle.

But no it isn't. Gohan still hasn't grown and matured. He's the strongest and done the thing you guys seem so overly fond of - taking Goku's spot. But he hasn't grown up. He defeated Cell, but he was little more than Goku's proxy. He needed Goku to tell him what to do and even to tell him to fight to begin with. Gohan was ready to give up.

[dbzfan7]

Then the Grand Elder's power up is utterly meaningless. The point of it was to pull out his hidden power. Notice that both Goku AND Vegeta receive massive power ups in this arc as well in order to allow them to fight Freeza. What to you constitutes realizing full potential? Being the main character and defeating the big bad

That's just it. The Guru's power up was meaningless. Even after it was done, Gohan still showed he had more hidden power. Goku's and Vegeta's Zenkai's brought out more than Gohan and Krillin's guru power up. If anything it seems Guru failed to bring it all out. I consider realizing your full potential when you actually master all of your hidden power. Ultimate Gohan is the best example as there can be no more rage boosts. No more hidden potential as it's all brought out and mastered. Rage boosts are not mastering or living up to your potential, it's only tapping into it. Continually having rage boosts is not putting a close on the hidden power. Even as the anime had said, they're mere glimpses at something bigger.

I don't think Kuririn got smarter and he always remained "cowardly". Kuririn's character is someone who is frightened to do something but pushes through because he's brave and a hero.

Krillin developed more varied techniques, he was the guy who made the plans when it was him, Bulma, and Gohan on Namek. I at least think he had a little subtle growing, as well as showing a dilemma around 18 was something new.

You keep saying that, but interesting to whom? Clearly millions find him interesting without needing to see him change.

Because he's the guy who fights the big bad. He beats up the previous guy and forces new faces to come in. You're possibly the only one I know who doesn't want Goku to develop in any way. Hell I've seen more comments he got worse after Freeza with the decisions he made.

Though generally real people don't change much. It's incredibly difficult.

Yes they do. Everyone changes and grows over time. Everyone is different from their kid years, teenage years, adult years, and senior years. Goku is the pretty much the same all the time.

[Rocketman]

Goku being a constant, a rock of certainty that his friends and family can count on is not a bad characterization....except when he is the only character allowed to do anything but suck and die.

[LuckyCat]

I thought Goku's development ended in Dragon Ball, as he had basically outgrown his childish weaknesses through Kami's training. The removal of his tail by Kami was also symbolic of Goku losing his wild side, which had been a problem for him throughout the series prior. He also finally bested all Earth's opponents in the 23rd Tenakaichi Budoukai and was offered a position as God and had found a beautiful wife. I'm not sure his character needed to grow from there.

I don't think Kuririn got smarter and he always remained "cowardly". Kuririn's character is someone who is frightened to do something but pushes through because he's brave and a hero.

Krillin developed more varied techniques, he was the guy who made the plans when it was him, Bulma, and Gohan on Namek. I at least think he had a little subtle growing, as well as showing a dilemma around 18 was something new.

Just an aside, but Krillin's stated purpose to do martial arts was to finally attract a woman. Cell saga finally gives Krillin a woman (well, close enough) who matches him and ties down yet another loose thread from the series.

[dbzfan7]

I thought Goku's development ended in Dragon Ball, as he had basically outgrown his childish weaknesses through Kami's training. The removal of his tail by Kami was also symbolic of Goku losing his wild side, which had been a problem for him throughout the series prior. He also finally bested all Earth's opponents in the 23rd Tenakaichi Budoukai and was offered a position as God and had found a beautiful wife. I'm not sure his character needed to grow from there.

Well he also grows to accept his saiyan heritage when he becomes a Super Saiyan. After that then yeah pretty much nothing. Goku was probably kept off screen so much because he hardly develops. He just is a tool to move the plot forward to the next section. Put an end to the drama? Have Goku beat someone up to move things forward. Add stakes and develop characters, remove Goku from the story. Happened in every arc.

Just an aside, but Krillin's stated purpose to do martial arts was to finally attract a woman. Cell saga finally gives Krillin a woman (well, close enough) who matches him and ties down yet another loose thread from the series.

Yeah that's true, though that seemed to be something he abandoned. He also I think may have been mentioned to find love, which he finally did by then.

[Rocketman]

Having Gohan finally release his potential to defeat an enemy who's 1. all of Goku's old foes put together 2.purposefully built to kill him and 3.actually superior to him is a decent ending in the broad strokes, but the execution leaves a looooot to be desired.

Or, if it had to go off the way it did, then I'd want another arc afterwards showing Gohan fighting without daddy's support. Gohan vs Gotenks-Buu almost qualifies, actually, since Goku only gets there like 30 seconds before Buu defuses, so Gohan held on and fought to the end even thinking no-one could help.

[LuckyCat]

Well he also grows to accept his saiyan heritage when he becomes a Super Saiyan.

Fair enough.

Just an aside, but Krillin's stated purpose to do martial arts was to finally attract a woman. Cell saga finally gives Krillin a woman (well, close enough) who matches him and ties down yet another loose thread from the series.

Yeah that's true, though that seemed to be something he abandoned. He also I think may have been mentioned to find love, which he finally did by then.

It's really not abandoned. In Saiyan Saga, right after Krillin decides he's going to go with Roshi to fight Raditz he laments that he'll probably die without marrying. Then, in Freeza Saga, after the spirit bomb is dropped and it looks like the heroes have won, Krillin says he's glad he made it out alive because he had always hoped to get married.

There's a lot of minor recurring story threads in Dragon Ball like this you can easily miss, though.

[dbzfan7]

Actually its really not abandoned. In Saiyan Saga, right after Krillin decides he's going to go with Roshi to fight Raditz he laments that he'll probably die without marrying. Then, in Freeza Saga, after the spirit bomb is dropped and it looks like the heroes have won, Krillin says he's glad he made it out alive because he had always hoped to get married.

There's a lot of minor recurring story threads in Dragon Ball like this you can easily miss, though.

Well yeah I recall he wanted to get a girlfriend/wife, but I think early on he wanted lots of girls. I also don't think he did martial arts just to impress girls either later on. Though he still wanted to find love. I think his motivation evolved into a more pure desire.

[Saiga]

Eh, I wouldn't really count 18 being handed to Kuririn as a prize a point in the Cell arc's favour. It is tying up something earlier, but Kuririn growing the fuck up would have also tied that up.

Getting into martial arts to pick up women was a bad thing, but in the end he gets rewarded for it anyway.

Having Gohan finally release his potential to defeat an enemy who's 1. all of Goku's old foes put together 2.purposefully built to kill him and 3.actually superior to him is a decent ending in the broad strokes, but the execution leaves a looooot to be desired.

Or, if it had to go off the way it did, then I'd want another arc afterwards showing Gohan fighting without daddy's support. Gohan vs Gotenks-Buu almost qualifies, actually, since Goku only gets there like 30 seconds before Buu defuses, so Gohan held on and fought to the end even thinking no-one could help.

I feel the same way, I think Cell is a good start and defeating Gohan defeating Boo with the help of the boys, Dende, Satan and good Boo would have been the perfect way to end it.

[Doctor.]

Goku's development ends right after he achieves the Super Saiyan transformation and "kills" Freeza. After that, some kind of character flaw is forced into him only for him to overcome it so that the status quo can be retained or some kind of flaw is forced into him and he doesn't overcome it, regressing as a character. He's literally a tool at this point, a plot device to beat opponent x and y in order to keep the story line, if there is one, going. He was a brilliantly written character, even from a critical standpoint, up until the end of the Freeza arc. Not anymore. His saving grace is that he's a very likable character still but some of his decisions in the Boo arc and in 'F' put that into question.

The same goes for Dragon Ball as a whole, really, just regressing in quality or doing the same thing over, and over, and over again without any change whatsoever, just being a repetitive mess of ideas that have potential but are not developed further than on a superficial level.

[dbzfan7]

Goku's development ends right after he achieves the Super Saiyan transformation and "kills" Freeza. After that, some kind of character flaw is forced into him only for him to overcome it so that the status quo can be retained or some kind of flaw is forced into him and he doesn't overcome it, regressing as a character. He's literally a tool at this point, a plot device to beat opponent x and y in order to keep the story line, if there is one, going. He was a brilliantly written character, even from a critical standpoint, up until the end of the Freeza arc. Not anymore. His saving grace is that he's a very likable character still but some of his decisions in the Boo arc and in 'F' put that into question.

The same goes for Dragon Ball as a whole, really, just regressing in quality or doing the same thing over, and over, and over again without any change whatsoever, just being a repetitive mess of ideas that have potential but are not developed further than on a superficial level.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why after Freeza I stop liking Goku as much as a character. He just blends in and never really feels much different. It's just Goku being Goku. He had a big chance for some development in the Cell saga, completely regretting his decision with Gohan, and then it goes nowhere.

[Zephyr]

While I don't find him to be particularly likable or endearing as a result of it, I do rather enjoy what Goku becomes after the Freeza arc. He's essentially the leader, but he's not really fit for that role. As was pointed out, he makes not-incredibly-strategic decisions more frequently than one would like, and it's been shown to bite him and everyone else in the ass. This is what happens when people respect the "guy who saves the day because of his power, fighting talent, and occasionally personality" in a wider scope than warranted.

I don't really look at it as Goku regressing, so much as I do everyone else mistakenly propping Goku up on more of a pedestal than he needs to be propped up onto. He's gotten so powerful and 'reliable', that it's gone to everyone's heads, his included.

This gives room for either the group to develop and not give Goku more responsibility than he can handle, or for Goku to develop better leadership skills.

[Rocketman]

This gives room for either the group to develop and not give Goku more responsibility than he can handle, or for Goku to develop better leadership skills.

Except the first won't happen because that would give Notgokus screentime where they aren't being useless, and the second won't happen because Goku is too valuable as a marketing and nostalgia tool to change in any way. He's frozen now, like Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny.

[Cipher]

Goku's development ends right after he achieves the Super Saiyan transformation and "kills" Freeza. After that, some kind of character flaw is forced into him only for him to overcome it so that the status quo can be retained or some kind of flaw is forced into him and he doesn't overcome it, regressing as a character.

I think Goku absolutely continues to develop after he "kills" Freeza. That's the point at which dangerously bored Goku comes in.

He may not continue to grow as a person in conventionally positive ways, or even the ways in which the series handles most of its other characters. In fact, he becomes more problematic throughout. But that's an element of the series I rather enjoy, and it lets it end on the note of his finally being reinvigorated by Oob and seeking to pass his skills on in a positive way, and (while I slightly prefer GT as the finale), it's an ending for Goku's arc that works quite well.

[ChiChiFan]

I disagree. This will always be debated but I think the series should've ended during Cell arc. I don't hate the Buu arc because it did start off good in the beginning but it was all over the place.