Is DBZA Goku better than current DBZ Goku?

[MYSTICisPOWER]

I was really hoping to not get pulled back into this thread (also because another top thread is also focusing on Gohan currently) but I lack discipline.

Gohan's only solution to obstacles was his deux ex random rage boosts and hype train. Nothing from his own merit

I'm sorry...what? Your going to have to elaborate on this one cause I don't know what your trying to suggest. A) Gohan's "rage boosts" are not random. B) Are you trying to suggest that him going SSJ2 against Cell was a Dues ex machina moment, cause by that logic so would Goku going SSJ against freeza but I assume you wouldn't hold that against him. C) How is it not his own merit? Didn't he just train his ass off for a year in the RoSaT.

Gohan was taking order essentially. Taking orders doesn't only mean taking orders from a drill sergeant. Goku told him to not give up, and not simply as motivation

You've said this before and I still haven't been able to figure out why this matters so much. So what his dad has to help him defeat the bad guy.

Gohan had given up and had to be told not to

Cell just killed his dad, came back stronger, defeated Vegeta, and Broke Gohan's arm. Is it really that crazy to imagine an 11 year old boy giving up hope? A very human response

Goku was the one that told him to not hold back

Gohan has never been in a fight involving that much energy, and in the moment it's very logical that he doesn't want to blow up the earth cause then what the heck is he fighting for?

he's the one that told his son when the best opening was to destroy Cell. At no point is Gohan taking control of the situation. He's merely the gun.

Gohan was in control of the situation pretty much from when he turns SSJ2 to when Cell self-destructs. His failure to beat Cell and the regret of that failure created his self-doubt when Cell returned so Goku has to coach him through the final moments. I fail to see why this is a problem or a reflection that Gohan is somehow not a well written character.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan had given up and had to be told not to

Cell just killed his dad, came back stronger, defeated Vegeta, and Broke Gohan's arm. Is it really that crazy to imagine an 11 year old boy giving up hope? A very human response

The way he felt wasn't crazy and made perfect sense. I think what ABED dislikes is the fact that Gohan did not even try to go down with a fight. He was literally willing to let every single person in that planet die without even trying to do something. Even if he would have charged a weak beam, something would've been something. But he was basically like, "Well, done all I can do. I fucked up. Go ahead, Cell. You earned this."

This is the complete opposite of, say, anime Goku's 20x kaioken moment against Frieza. He was willing to kill himself just to stand a chance against someone he knew was leagues above him. I'm especially fond of the original Funi dub where he says, and I quote, "I don't care if you're a MILLION times stronger than me. Mark my words, I'm not going to let them [his friends and family] down!" Even though he's less selfless in the manga, it's still the same sort of thing; he fights back even when he's completely down.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

The way he felt wasn't crazy and made perfect sense. I think what ABED dislikes is the fact that Gohan did not even try to go down with a fight. He was literally willing to let every single person in that planet die without even trying to do something. Even if he would have charged a weak beam, something would've been something. But he was basically like, "Well, done all I can do. I fucked up. Go ahead, Cell. You earned this."

This is the complete opposite of, say, anime Goku's 20x kaioken moment against Freeza. He was willing to kill himself just to stand a chance against someone he knew was leagues above him. I'm especially fond of the original Funi dub where he says, and I quote, "I don't care if you're a MILLION times stronger than me. Mark my words, I'm not going to let them [his friends and family] down!" Even though he's less selfless in the manga, it's still the same sort of thing; he fights back even when he's completely down.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but, so what? He has to be in a state of desperation and despair otherwise the interaction with his father doesn't happen which is vital to the story and the development of both characters. I really enjoy the fact that Gohan has some major flaws, (especially this one that could have followed him into the buu arc) it's what makes him captivating and I would have liked to see him learn from the flaws as he continued to grow but AT tossed him to the side.

[fadeddreams5]

The way he felt wasn't crazy and made perfect sense. I think what ABED dislikes is the fact that Gohan did not even try to go down with a fight. He was literally willing to let every single person in that planet die without even trying to do something. Even if he would have charged a weak beam, something would've been something. But he was basically like, "Well, done all I can do. I fucked up. Go ahead, Cell. You earned this."

This is the complete opposite of, say, anime Goku's 20x kaioken moment against Freeza. He was willing to kill himself just to stand a chance against someone he knew was leagues above him. I'm especially fond of the original Funi dub where he says, and I quote, "I don't care if you're a MILLION times stronger than me. Mark my words, I'm not going to let them [his friends and family] down!" Even though he's less selfless in the manga, it's still the same sort of thing; he fights back even when he's completely down.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but, so what? He has to be in a state of desperation and despair otherwise the interaction with his father doesn't happen which is vital to the story and the development of both characters. I really enjoy the fact that Gohan has some major flaws, (especially this one that could have followed him into the buu arc) it's what makes him captivating and I would have liked to see him learn from the flaws as he continued to grow but AT tossed him to the side.

Believe me, I agree. But in that particular scene, Goku could have jumped in after Gohan threw his kamehameha. Gohan's resolve could have slipped, and that's when Goku coached him. Him flat out giving up like that irks even me, and I love SSJ2 Kid Gohan.

[ABED]

It makes sense to be overcome by grief, but it makes no sense for a hero . I don't know what I have to say for you to understand, Gohan is passive the entire time. He doesn't do anything because he chose it for himself. Goku was the one that told him to fight when Gohan gave up, he told him not to hold back, then he told him when the best opening was. Gohan isn't at all doing what he decides, he's just listening to his father.

otherwise the interaction with his father doesn't happen which is vital to the story and the development of both characters

There's no development in Gohan.

I really enjoy the fact that Gohan has some major flaws

This one is over the line for a main hero. Passivity isn't becoming of the main character and if you are going to show growth, growth is the key to victory, it's not "hero wins, then he grows."

Is it really that crazy to imagine an 11 year old boy giving up hope?

No, but this is a story where an 11 year old is the strongest in the universe.

Gohan has never been in a fight involving that much energy, and in the moment it's very logical that he doesn't want to blow up the earth cause then what the heck is he fighting for?

So risk losing the fight and letting the Earth die anyway?

Gohan was in control of the situation pretty much from when he turns SSJ2 to when Cell self-destructs. His failure to beat Cell and the regret of that failure created his self-doubt when Cell returned so Goku has to coach him through the final moments. I fail to see why this is a problem or a reflection that Gohan is somehow not a well written character.

Gohan wasn't in control, he was acting purely on emotion. Do you think regret has only one response? Gohan can easiy have used his regret as fuel to stop Cell. Once again, my biggest problem is that he chooses certain death to not even trying. If Gohan's supposed to be the main character from here on, giving up is a terrible quality to give him. Gohan's problem has only ever been self doubt against the Saiyans. He's faced overwhelming odds before. I fail to see how this is different.

I'm not sure if I can make this any clearer, I thought I was being clear to begin with.

[FortuneSSJ]

I always found these comparions stupid.
Comparing an abridged character that tends to be funny, to the original character that tends to be serious most of the time, doesn't make any sense to me.

Abridged series just have one goal: Be funny.
Original series always tend to be more serious. It can have their gag moments like Dragon Ball had a lot, but if the series genre isn't 100% comedy, then there's a limit to it.

Reading comments like: "Thanks TFS for making this. The original show sucks but I love this. DBZA > DBZ." makes me puke.
Not only is disrespectful to Toriyama & cia, but people don't have any idea how ignorant they are being.

So no, DBZA Goku is no way better than DBZ Goku. Both are two different interpretations of the same character.
Abridged Goku tries to be funny all the time and the other, well the other is our Son Goku! My childhood hero. <3

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Goku was the one that told him to fight when Gohan gave up, he told him not to hold back, then he told him when the best opening was. Gohan isn't at all doing what he decides, he's just listening to his father.


There's no development in Gohan.

I know I've said this before but your being totally unfair to Gohan and I can't understand why. Yes Gohan gives up in the moment, Yes his father has to talk to him and tries convince him to fight, but it's Gohan's decision to continue to fight. Goku doesn't posses his son and fight the battle for him. Gohan could have let his despair continue to have a hold on him but he doesn't, he listens to his father. To suggest that Gohan has nothing to do with defeating Cell makes no sense to me. This is why I said we have two very different interpretations of the moment cause I don't see your issue here.

Passivity isn't becoming of the main character and if you are going to show growth, growth is the key to victory, it's not "hero wins, then he grows."

No, but this is a story where an 11 year old is the strongest in the universe.

That's Amazing though! You're explaining an amazing quality of Gohan. That one of his character traits (passivity) is in direct contradiction with his responsibility (the strongest in the universe). There is so much you can do with that conflict, it creates drama, complexity, potential for great story-telling, not just here in Cell but it could have been explored in great depths later on in the series as well.

So risk losing the fight and letting the Earth die anyway?

It's a catch-22, of course Gohan is not going to know what to do, we're really holding this against him?

Once again, my biggest problem is that he chooses certain death to not even trying. If Gohan's supposed to be the main character from here on, giving up is a terrible quality to give him

It's not terrible at all, I don't know how to make this clearer, I like this aspect, because as I said before Gohan is not a finished product at Cell. As the story continued there was unlimited potential for Gohan to rise above this and explore new qualities about himself because of the events that happened with Cell because it wasn't a perfect victory. Which is fantastic, and unlike a lot of other characters in the series that have to just redo what they've already done because they reached the top.

In Cell, Gohan needs an external stimulus to defeat him, if he was to remain the hero in buu you could have explored him finding that stimulus internally, and thus he continues to grow. AT is leaving Gohan things to still accomplish in his life, his story isn't over.

Gohan's problem has only ever been self doubt against the Saiyans. He's faced overwhelming odds before. I fail to see how this is different.

Because the failure is his. He blames himself for his father's pointless death. He failed his friends and his families unlike anytime he has before because they were relying on him unlike anytime they have before. So when Cell returns I fail to see how his Self-Doubt in that moment is unjustified.

[ABED]

What is so interesting about a character that gives up and then needs not only a pep talk to do what is the only rational option and then when he only listens to what someone else told him, has to have his hand held every step of the way?

THat's NOT amazing at all. It's not an interesting character trait in the guy whose story you are witnessing. He should be driving the story forward, not be in the passenger seat. The drama is already there with a being that wants to end the world, why compound it by having a character that needs to be told what to do every step of the way in order to achieve his "goal"? How is it good storytelling to have a passive character grow AFTER he achieves his goal? In any good story, to achieve a goal there are roadblocks, and only by overcoming those roadblocks does the main character reach his goal. This is clearly not that. It's giving Gohan an internal dilemma that's not organic to his character. What is compelling about a story where things just happen to them and they don't make their own choices but simply do what someone else tells them? What did Gohan do to achieve that victory other than be stronger? That's not nearly as compelling as winning through technique, skill, force of will, etc. Gohan had more power and listened to what someone else told him. Being an instrument isn't all that interesting a character.

It's a catch-22, of course Gohan is not going to know what to do, we're really holding this against him?

Are we watching the same character? He knows what to do, he just refuses to even try before his father tells him to try, he knows he has to kill Cell. How is this a catch 22?

I said before Gohan is not a finished product at Cell.

But he was. He was acting out of character in this arc. It's dramatically unsatisfying to have Gohan be the main hero in this arc anyway because the connection between hero and villain has nothing to do with Gohan at all. It's between Goku and Cell, Gohan is Goku's proxy in this case.

He failed his friends and his families unlike anytime he has before because they were relying on him unlike anytime they have before.

The same thing during the Saiyan arc, except there he grew. And he has been relyed upon before.

So when Cell returns I fail to see how his Self-Doubt in that moment is unjustified.

Because you don't seem to see that he's faced overwhelming odds before. I don't remember him thinking he failed his friends and family. Yes, he beat himself up over Goku's death, rightfully so, and his shattered arm didn't help, but what given everything we had seen of him to this point leads you to think it's in his character to not at least try?

[Videlphia76ers]

I pretty much skimmed everything else in this thread, but I don't expect a parody series that can't even write jokes to write a character better than a man who started a multimillion (billion?) dollar franchise. As for right now my answer is no. If we are talking the entire character arc of Goku from the beginning of DB, hell no.