The moral alignment of Beerus

[Alex9196]

first of i have to agree with you on what you said with beerus but not with the christian god thing.

i have a question. did you say that because you are believing it yourself or because you were pointing out what others believe?

Are you talking to me?

oh, yes, sorry i forgot to quote before.

[rereboy]

That the christian god is defined as an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect in every way being is a fact. Whether you believe that he exists, as he is defined by Christianity, is another matter altogether and it's completely irrelevant for my point.

[Alex9196]

That the christian god is defined as an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect in every way being is a fact. Whether you believe that he exists, as he is defined by Christianity, is another matter altogether and it's perfectly irrelevant for my point.

yeah it is irrelevant for your point on beerus, i was just curious.

[Kamiccolo9]

The fact that the Christian God is considered omni(x) is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about whether or not gods exist on the same levels of morality as mortals. While I used YHWH/Jehova/"God" as my example, this situation is hardly limited for him. An ancient Greek would find the idea of placing Ares on trial laughable, since war was what he lived for. They would fight him or what he stood for, sure, but no mortal would ever have said that Ares was "wrong." No devout follower of the Kami would accuse Kagutsuchi of being "unfair" because a forest was burnt down; he's just doing what he does. No Native American deity would ever be accused of misusing his powers to cause a drought; "misuse of power" isn't even a concept to them. Gods have a purpose, and however they go about fulfilling that purpose is up to them and mortals have no say in it. A god who is subject to mortal definitions of morality is no god at all.

[Alex9196]

The fact that the Christian God is considered omni(x) is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about whether or not gods exist on the same levels of morality as mortals. While I used YHWH/Jehova/"God" as my example, this situation is hardly limited for him. An ancient Greek would find the idea of placing Ares on trial laughable, since war was what he lived for. They would fight him or what he stood for, sure, but no mortal would ever have said that Ares was "wrong." No devout follower of the Kami would accuse Kagutsuchi of being "unfair" because a forest was burnt down; he's just doing what he does. No Native American deity would ever be accused of misusing his powers to cause a drought; "misuse of power" isn't even a concept to them. Gods have a purpose, and however they go about fulfilling that purpose is up to them and mortals have no say in it. A god who is subject to mortal definitions of morality is no god at all.

i think a "mortal" who is subject to a gods morality just because he is a god also not good. for example if a god like beerus would exist in our universe i wouldnt except his "godly morality".

[Kamiccolo9]

The fact that the Christian God is considered omni(x) is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about whether or not gods exist on the same levels of morality as mortals. While I used YHWH/Jehova/"God" as my example, this situation is hardly limited for him. An ancient Greek would find the idea of placing Ares on trial laughable, since war was what he lived for. They would fight him or what he stood for, sure, but no mortal would ever have said that Ares was "wrong." No devout follower of the Kami would accuse Kagutsuchi of being "unfair" because a forest was burnt down; he's just doing what he does. No Native American deity would ever be accused of misusing his powers to cause a drought; "misuse of power" isn't even a concept to them. Gods have a purpose, and however they go about fulfilling that purpose is up to them and mortals have no say in it. A god who is subject to mortal definitions of morality is no god at all.

i think a "mortal" who is subject to a gods morality just because he is a god also not good. for example if a god like beerus would exist in our universe i wouldnt except his "godly morality".

There is no "godly morality." Morality doesn't even enter the equation. Both in Dragon Ball, and in essentially every religion, being a god is both a state of being and a "job." A god's purpose is to do their "job," whatever that may be. You keep using the word "good." "Good" is irrelevant.

For Beerus, his job is to destroy stuff. That's it. Most likely for some kind of universal balance or something, but I don't think that's ever dealt with. How he goes about doing that is his business, and no one beneath him has the right to tell him otherwise. Whether or not he enjoys the job is irrelevant. As long as he fulfills his role, then he's doing what's "right." Neither Kaio, nor Kaioshin, or the old Kaioshin ever mentioned anything about Beerus being wrong. Neither Goku nor Vegeta nor any of of the others on Earth told or otherwise indicated that Beerus was wrong to be doing what he was doing.

As for the people he kills in the process, in the long run, in the grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant. The universe will go on long after Goku and co. are gone, and it will do just fine without them. They aren't important, in a cosmic sense. They are a lower level of being.

[Doctor.]

Actually Goku told Beerus he shouldn't enjoy destruction.

Also, Whis suggesting Goku to become the next God should Beerus die suggests the title isn't given at birth like the Kaioshin, but is actually just a job that anyone with sufficient power can have. If Freeza became a God of Destruction, would he suddenly become not evil as a result of that?

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually Goku told Beerus he shouldn't enjoy destruction.

That doesn't equate to Goku telling Beerus that his job was wrong.

[Alex9196]

The fact that the Christian God is considered omni(x) is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about whether or not gods exist on the same levels of morality as mortals. While I used YHWH/Jehova/"God" as my example, this situation is hardly limited for him. An ancient Greek would find the idea of placing Ares on trial laughable, since war was what he lived for. They would fight him or what he stood for, sure, but no mortal would ever have said that Ares was "wrong." No devout follower of the Kami would accuse Kagutsuchi of being "unfair" because a forest was burnt down; he's just doing what he does. No Native American deity would ever be accused of misusing his powers to cause a drought; "misuse of power" isn't even a concept to them. Gods have a purpose, and however they go about fulfilling that purpose is up to them and mortals have no say in it. A god who is subject to mortal definitions of morality is no god at all.

i think a "mortal" who is subject to a gods morality just because he is a god also not good. for example if a god like beerus would exist in our universe i wouldnt except his "godly morality".

There is no "godly morality." Morality doesn't even enter the equation. Both in Dragon Ball, and in essentially every religion, being a god is both a state of being and a "job." A god's purpose is to do their "job," whatever that may be. You keep using the word "good." "Good" is irrelevant.

For Beerus, his job is to destroy stuff. That's it. Most likely for some kind of universal balance or something, but I don't think that's ever dealt with. How he goes about doing that is his business, and no one beneath him has the right to tell him otherwise. Whether or not he enjoys the job is irrelevant. As long as he fulfills his role, then he's doing what's "right." Neither Kaio, nor Kaioshin, or the old Kaioshin ever mentioned anything about Beerus being wrong. Neither Goku nor Vegeta nor any of of the others on Earth told or otherwise indicated that Beerus was wrong to be doing what he was doing.

As for the people he kills in the process, in the long run, in the grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant. The universe will go on long after Goku and co. are gone, and it will do just fine without them. They aren't important, in a cosmic sense. They are a lower level of being.

for starters if goku wasnt around i am not so sure the universe would even exist anymore, if he didnt stop kid buu, he would have kept blowing up planets in a matter of seconds. so goku, a "lower being" saved the universe while the so called gods literally sit on their asses and watch, kaioshin and old kaioshin. as for beerus he is sleeping at the time. if he woke up a few years later he wouldnt have a job anymore, there would be nothing left to destroy.

also Doctor. just said goku didnt think so too. do you think goku accepts it just because its his job or not? no i dont think so.

besides the gods must be terribly arrogant if any "lower being" killed in the process is not relevant. every being is relevant and has its right to live, no matter if god, human or pig or whatever.

[Kamiccolo9]

for starters if goku wasnt around i am not so sure the universe would even exist anymore, if he didnt stop kid buu, he would have kept blowing up planets in a matter of seconds. so goku, a "lower being" saved the universe while the so called gods literally sit on their asses and watch, kaioshin and old kaioshin. as for beerus he is sleeping at the time. if he woke up a few years later he wouldnt have a job anymore, there would be nothing left to destroy.

also Doctor. just said goku didnt think so too. do you think goku accepts it just because its his job or not? no i dont think so.

besides the gods must be terribly arrogant if any "lower being" killed in the process is not relevant. every being is relevant and has its right to live, no matter if god, human or pig or whatever.

Buu would have killed all the people. The universe would have kept on ticking just fine. Goku saved the people and planets of the universe, not the universe itself. And if Beerus no longer had anything to destroy, that would indeed be an interesting issue, but it's not one that ever came up. Maybe he'd end up destroying himself? Who knows. It would make for a great story though....

Goku did accept it. Look at him after the fight. You don't see him begging Beerus to stop, do you? He was perfectly ready for him and all of his friends to die.

Again, you're trying to attribute morality to beings that aren't bound to it. Although I would advise you to tell yourself that the next time you slap a mosquito, or step on a cockroach, or eat a burger.

[Alex9196]

for starters if goku wasnt around i am not so sure the universe would even exist anymore, if he didnt stop kid buu, he would have kept blowing up planets in a matter of seconds. so goku, a "lower being" saved the universe while the so called gods literally sit on their asses and watch, kaioshin and old kaioshin. as for beerus he is sleeping at the time. if he woke up a few years later he wouldnt have a job anymore, there would be nothing left to destroy.

also Doctor. just said goku didnt think so too. do you think goku accepts it just because its his job or not? no i dont think so.

besides the gods must be terribly arrogant if any "lower being" killed in the process is not relevant. every being is relevant and has its right to live, no matter if god, human or pig or whatever.

Buu would have killed all the people. The universe would have kept on ticking just fine. Goku saved the people and planets of the universe, not the universe itself. And if Beerus no longer had anything to destroy, that would indeed be an interesting issue, but it's not one that ever came up. Maybe he'd end up destroying himself? Who knows. It would make for a great story though....

Goku did accept it. Look at him after the fight. You don't see him begging Beerus to stop, do you? He was perfectly ready for him and all of his friends to die.

Again, you're trying to attribute morality to beings that aren't bound to it. Although I would advise you to tell yourself that the next time you slap a mosquito, or step on a cockroach, or eat a burger.

i do kill mosquitos if they are trying to stitch me. but i dont think that is wrong. it is more self defense, since the mosquito began. but if i encouter a cockroach or spider in my room i dont kill them. i take them in my hand and realese them in my garden. and i dont eat burgers cause i am vegan. however this isnt a discussion about my morality but beerus'.

and i didnt think goku accepted it. i think he just didnt see a way out and did nothing. besides he and most of his friends would get special treatment in the afterlife. so for him there wouldnt be a huge change.

[Kamiccolo9]

for starters if goku wasnt around i am not so sure the universe would even exist anymore, if he didnt stop kid buu, he would have kept blowing up planets in a matter of seconds. so goku, a "lower being" saved the universe while the so called gods literally sit on their asses and watch, kaioshin and old kaioshin. as for beerus he is sleeping at the time. if he woke up a few years later he wouldnt have a job anymore, there would be nothing left to destroy.

also Doctor. just said goku didnt think so too. do you think goku accepts it just because its his job or not? no i dont think so.

besides the gods must be terribly arrogant if any "lower being" killed in the process is not relevant. every being is relevant and has its right to live, no matter if god, human or pig or whatever.

Buu would have killed all the people. The universe would have kept on ticking just fine. Goku saved the people and planets of the universe, not the universe itself. And if Beerus no longer had anything to destroy, that would indeed be an interesting issue, but it's not one that ever came up. Maybe he'd end up destroying himself? Who knows. It would make for a great story though....

Goku did accept it. Look at him after the fight. You don't see him begging Beerus to stop, do you? He was perfectly ready for him and all of his friends to die.

Again, you're trying to attribute morality to beings that aren't bound to it. Although I would advise you to tell yourself that the next time you slap a mosquito, or step on a cockroach, or eat a burger.

i do kill mosquitos if they are trying to stitch me. but i dont think that is wrong. it is more self defense, since the mosquito began. but if i encouter a cockroach or spider in my room i dont kill them. i take them in my hand and realese them in my garden. and i dont eat burgers cause i am vegan. however this isnt a discussion about my morality but beerus'.

and i didnt think goku accepted it. i think he just didnt see a way out and did nothing. besides he and most of his friends would get special treatment in the afterlife. so for him there wouldnt be a huge change.

But the mosquitos aren't trying to harm you, they are just trying to live. And yes, your morality does come into play because of your previous statement. Even when resorting to self-defense, you are placing your own life as more important than the other party's. You are also depriving those other creatures of comfort because you don't want them around you.

Declaring every being to be true and equal is admirable, but unrealistic.

Beerus is well within his "rights" to do what he does, because the universe mandates that there must be a destroyer. We have received no indication that Beerus is in any way misusing his position, and this whole "argument" stems from people who are unable to apply their own principles deciding that a being that, in universe, would be as far above them as they are above the endless amount of creatures they kill unknowing just by existing.

[Alex9196]

the mosquitos may just try to live, but harm people in the process. also you were right about the stuff with spiders and other creatures in my room. its as much their room as it is mine. from now on i am gonna let them stay. thanks for making me see that.

but still it was also never stated that beeerus is necessary for the universe (maybe from kaioshin but not from "the universe itsself", i know that sounds weird but i dont really know how to explain this, however...), but for the system the kais and others created. maybe there would be a way without a god of destruction.

[rereboy]

The fact that the Christian God is considered omni(x) is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about whether or not gods exist on the same levels of morality as mortals. While I used YHWH/Jehova/"God" as my example, this situation is hardly limited for him. An ancient Greek would find the idea of placing Ares on trial laughable, since war was what he lived for. They would fight him or what he stood for, sure, but no mortal would ever have said that Ares was "wrong." No devout follower of the Kami would accuse Kagutsuchi of being "unfair" because a forest was burnt down; he's just doing what he does. No Native American deity would ever be accused of misusing his powers to cause a drought; "misuse of power" isn't even a concept to them. Gods have a purpose, and however they go about fulfilling that purpose is up to them and mortals have no say in it. A god who is subject to mortal definitions of morality is no god at all.

That's like saying a human can't be judged for whatever he does to an inferior species. Being superior or having greater status doesn't make any being immune to judgment, which is basically what you are trying to argue here.

And, obviously, the judgment will be based on human standards because we are human.

The ancient deities weren't judged (or rather, people didn't dare to judge them) because they were worshiped and were feared, pretty much like an even more powerful version of many kings and emperors in history, that's all.

[Kamiccolo9]

the mosquitos may just try to live, but harm people in the process. also you were right about the stuff with spiders and other creatures in my room. its as much their room as it is mine. from now on i am gonna let them stay. thanks for making me see that.

but still it was also never stated that beeerus is necessary for the universe (maybe from kaioshin but not from "the universe itsself", i know that sounds weird but i dont really know how to explain this, however...), but for the system the kais and others created. maybe there would be a way without a god of destruction.

I think it's fair to say that, as Beerus, Kaio, and the Kaioshins are the gods of the DB universe, what they have to say is good enough to act as appropriate interpretation of universal will. Some others have brought up interesting issues concerning the necessity of destruction due to the cycle of reincarnation, and that seems like a good enough answer to me. Still, the lack of an answer itself signifies the point I've been hinting at. If the people in-universe are incapable of comprehending the purpose of a higher level being, then what right have they to judge said being?

[Alex9196]

i dont think they are incapable to comprehend beerus' position or what its for. but maybe i missunderstood you. but since the db universe is based on reincarnation, it would simply solve the problem if two people would have no more than two kids. than the souls would balance out. and even if beerus would destroy a planet, wouldnt it be the most populated then?
or the one with the most evil people on it? but no beerus seems picking planets at random. and in db supers first episode he destroyed half a planet? would good will that do?

also i never said every being is equal. i said every being has a right to live and be unharmed from others. it is the actions we take that make us unequal, in my opinion everyone is born equal.

[Kamiccolo9]

i dont think they are incapable to comprehend beerus' position or what its for. but maybe i missunderstood you. but since the db universe is based on reincarnation, it would simply solve the problem if two people would have no more than two kids. than the souls would balance out. and even if beerus would destroy a planet, wouldnt it be the most populated then?
or the one with the most evil people on it? but no beerus seems picking planets at random. and in db supers first episode he destroyed half a planet? would good will that do?

You want to inflict mandatory birth control on an entire universe?

Define "evil."

[Alex9196]

i guess birth control is better than a guy who destroys a bunch of planets all 40 years or so. also north kai has an awesome telepathic abilitty. he could let vegeta talk to all inhabitents of earth at once. i dont know how many planets there are in the db universe. a thousand? a million?... but with that abillity he should be able to tell everyone of that rule.

and for evil... its hard to define evil or the grade of evilness. also not everyone has the exact same perception on evil. i am not very skilled in wording and expressing in words so i have to tell you honestly i cant define it to you right now. maybe when i thought about it a little while i could express it.

[Kamiccolo9]

i guess birth control is better than a guy who destroys a bunch of planets all 40 years or so. also north kai has an awesome telepathic abilitty. he could let vegeta talk to all inhabitents of earth at once. i dont know how many planets there are in the db universe. a thousand? a million?... but with that abillity he should be able to tell everyone of that rule.

and for evil... its hard to define evil or the grade of evilness. also not everyone has the exact same perception on evil. i am not very skilled in wording and expressing in words so i have to tell you honestly i cant define it to you right now. maybe when i thought about it a little while i could express it.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at in the first paragraph.

Evil is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people think it's evil to butcher a cow, some think it's part of the natural order. Some would say that a thief stealing from a store is evil, but the thief who's stealing to support his family would say otherwise. You can't make a concrete definition of a universally accepted "evil," so you can't really use "it's evil" as a defense. The obvious fictional parallel is Galactus, and there's even a storyline dealing with this issue, ending with everyone involved becoming momentarily aware of why he does what he does, and everyone understanding that it is necessary, despite it being morally repugnant to those who suffer. Some things, loathe as we may be to accept it, are necessary, and it seems, given Toriyama's statements on gods of creation and destruction, that Beerus is one of those things.

[Draconic]

i dont think they are incapable to comprehend beerus' position or what its for. but maybe i missunderstood you. but since the db universe is based on reincarnation, it would simply solve the problem if two people would have no more than two kids. than the souls would balance out. and even if beerus would destroy a planet, wouldnt it be the most populated then?
or the one with the most evil people on it? but no beerus seems picking planets at random. and in db supers first episode he destroyed half a planet? would good will that do?

also i never said every being is equal. i said every being has a right to live and be unharmed from others. it is the actions we take that make us unequal, in my opinion everyone is born equal.

Not all people are born equal in Dragon Ball. The best example are the Kaioshin and the Kais. Beerus, even if not born a God of Destruction (which seems improbable now that we have Champa, but we will have to wait and see how that turns out), is still in that higher position. His job is to destroy; how he chooses to do so is entirely up to him.
And, to Beerus, there are no evil people. The only one able to judge that is Enma. To him, every other being (except maybe the Kaioshin) are beneath him. What they do it's no concern to him. That's why his reasoning to destroy planets is based on something as trivial as food, because, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. For example, in the case of a home, it doesn't matter what ants do to themselves, but you wouldn't let them overrun the house.