Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[VegettoEX]

I agree with removing Goku he's a godddamn autistic child in terms of emotional maturity

I don't think those words quite mean what you think they mean, and there's almost certainly a better way to have a conversation here.

[Rockman X]

He only kills out of necessity nowadays. Much like what Goku went through when he understood the concept of mercy.

Not in the modern stuff. lol. The Vegeta of old is gone.

You guys gotta be kidding me! just because the murderous psychopath found a home to live doesn't change the fact that he's still very much a crazy bastard on the inside! he's the ANTI-HERO NOT your typical "Good guy" he has gotten over his "pride" issues with Goku and immorality thing but that doesn't mean he will refrain from killing.

Every enemy Vegeta fights he fights to KILL Goku only fights to push his limits all i want to see is more of Vegeta just murdering stuff! is that too violent for today's generation? and if anything Goku showing mercy to tyrants Freeza is just absurd.. its just like Batman letting Joker live knowing full well he's going to murder in the future its not mercy anymore its stupidity!

[fadeddreams5]

He only kills out of necessity nowadays. Much like what Goku went through when he understood the concept of mercy.

Not in the modern stuff. lol. The Vegeta of old is gone.

You guys gotta be kidding me! just because the murderous psychopath found a home to live doesn't change the fact that he's still very much a crazy bastard on the inside! he's the ANTI-HERO NOT your typical "Good guy" he has gotten over his "pride" issues with Goku and immorality thing but that doesn't mean he will refrain from killing.

Every enemy Vegeta fights he fights to KILL Goku only fights to push his limits all i want to see is more of Vegeta just murdering stuff! is that too violent for today's generation? and if anything Goku showing mercy to tyrants Freeza is just absurd.. its just like Batman letting Joker live knowing full well he's going to murder in the future its not mercy anymore its stupidity!

You misunderstood me. What you wrote is what Vegeta should, by all means, be. However, you are not going to see him kill anybody who isn't Frieza-level evil in Super or any modern stuff because...

is that too violent for today's generation?

...that.

[irreality]

Hmm.. I think Vegeta refrains from killing things because it would piss off his family and "friends" (and would complicate his life). But I'm sure if he "got" to kill something/someone he wouldn't think twice about it. Like it is a bad habit he gave up when he got married but doesn't see anything wrong with it if he were alone in space. As opposed to the others, who range from "let's kill them just in case" to "if I *really* need to kill them I will, but otherwise not".

I'm not sure Vegeta is necessarily a psychopath (now or ever). I just don't think he views killing as immoral, given it is what every member of his race did as a job, and something he did since he was a little kid. It is probably a part of fighting he legitimately enjoys, even. But I think he can show remorse when he does something he does consider wrong (like sacrificing himself and taking responsibility for Buu's revival). I do think he can show responsibility and honor contracts. I don't think he will just lie and deceive others consistently for personal gain, or operate under aliases, etc. And he can form empathetic relationships with other persons, and have personal relationships be the most important things in his life and maintain them.

[ABED]

I just don't think he views killing as immoral
He delighted in it, I think that qualifies as being a psychpath, though I'm by no means a psychologist/psychiatrist.

And he can form empathetic relationships with other persons, and have personal relationships be the most important things in his life and maintain them.

The guy lies to himself. He claims to care about his race, but if any Saiyan showed weakness, he had no empathy for them. He didn't care about Raditz, and he murdered Nappa when Goku injured him. He talks a good game about Saiyan pride. He doesn't do a good job of maintaining his relationships until the end. Until then, it's a very one sided relationship between he and Bulma. He shows zero concern for her or his baby's life when Dr. Gero destroys her vehicle, almost killing both mother and child.

[irreality]

He *can* form empathetic relationships, though, even if he didn't do it until the end of the Cell saga with F Trunks (and later with his family). Not caring about people you don't want to care about does not make you a psychopath. Not being *able* to care about anyone makes you a psychopath. He never claims to care about Nappa or Radditz, and he isn't lying to himself about it because he blatantly says that he doesn't care about them -- he doesn't pretend otherwise. But he does care about Future Trunks at the end of the Cell saga, and by the Buu Saga he cares about his wife and child. In Super he cares a lot more for them. He is also shown as caring about his father. If he were a psychopath he would never care for anyone.

Nor does, specifically, enjoying killing (or enjoying any other bad thing). That is not a diagnostic criteria. Lots of people "enjoy lying" or "enjoy cheating on their spouses". Most people have a sense of consequences to their actions and are able to behave in a socialized manner based on other goals they have in life (and sometimes those goals are selfish and they do do bad things). A psychopath lacks that awareness. Vegeta obviously enjoys killing but he isn't going around killing people just for the heck of it now that he lives on Earth (even after Namek he isn't going around killing things when he is depressed or angry). He let himself "be controlled" by Babidi to feel he could give himself license to behave badly again. We know he wasn't really mind controlled, but the fact that he needed "an excuse" to let go points to things like awareness of responsibility.

As for not thinking killing is wrong -- that is a fault in having a bad moral code. That is not indicative of mental illness. Many cultures have thought killing justified, honorable, or laudable in certain situations. That doesn't mean every member of that culture was a psychopath.

Anyway: being evil is not synomymous with being a psychopath. He can form enduring relationships. He can conform to social norms. He doesn't use deception/aliases/manipulation/conning in general (he isn't, to use the phrase, seductively dishonest): he is forthright about what he does wrong and what he does right (he doesn't try to pretend he didn't kill namekians). He can plan ahead and thinks things through, even though his ego makes him make stupidly risky decisions. He is irritable and aggressive, but he doesn't, say, assault Bulma or kill bystanders at a concert. He doesn't show consistent irresponsibility -- he has goals and sticks to them, and honors his promises. He doesn't rationalize himself out of guilt for things he finds wrong, say allowing Buu to power up.

He is reckless about his safety and the safety of others at times (During Cell, definitely: he was very sneaky and conscious of danger in Namek, and anything post Majin Vegeta's fight: he makes sure his son is unconscious for his fight against Buu, etc), but that alone will not make him ASPD.

Most importantly, I think, is the feel of the whole thing. Vegeta just doesn't have blunted/flat affect. He has incredibly *strong* emotional responses to stress and punishment. He finds things funny, he finds things pleasant, he finds things angering, annoying, he is proud for himself but also for others, he can be genuinely happy for his son, he can feel genuine sorrow at death, and he can cry when sad. He isn't faking his emotional responses. That doesn't mean Vegeta is not often evil and has a very twisted moral code. I just don't see indications of a personality disorder.

In any case: evil !== personality disorder.

[ABED]

Not caring about people you don't want to care about does not make you a psychopath.

Murdering someone and not giving it a second thought makes you a psychopath. And killing someone you've been with for decades like he was a gnat is certainly a psychopath. He is definitely lying if he thinks he truly cares about the Saiyan race but doesn't care about that last remaining members, otherwise it's just a floating abstraction.

If he were a psychopath he would never care for anyone.

He grew a conscience. He may not be a psychopath now, but he certainly was at some point.

As for not thinking killing is wrong -- that is a fault in having a bad moral code. That is not indicative of mental illness. Many cultures have thought killing justified, honorable, or laudable in certain situations. That doesn't mean every member of that culture was a psychopath.

Not every moral code is equal.

He finds things funny, he finds things pleasant, he finds things angering, annoying, he is proud for himself but also for others, he can be genuinely happy for his son, he can feel genuine sorrow at death, and he can cry when sad.

Murdering people and when people are weaker than him, he finds it funny. He finds it pleasant when he's on the winning end, he's annoyed when things don't go his way. He's not proud, he's arrogant. He only later shows genuine happiness for his son. When he cries, it's usually woe is me.

He has incredibly *strong* emotional responses to stress and punishment.

It's usually very petulant. Wah! I'm not stronger than Cell! Wah, I'm not a Super Saiyan!

Maybe he isn't technically psychopathic, but he has some sever psychological issues, e.g. narcissism.

[nickzambuto]

I don't understand why so many people are obsessed with the idea of Goku retiring and passing on the torch at the ripe old age of 30.

[fadeddreams5]

Toriyama created this idea of "passing the torch." First, with Gohan. Then, with Uub. People are just curious to see how he would execute this, honestly. Nobody wants Goku to get the shaft though--at least, I don't think so.

[Chuquita]

I don't want the torch getting passed because I like Gokû and find him entertaining.

If I had to guess, maybe people want someone to replace him because they don't like Gokû, or don't relate to him well, so they want to replace him with someone more to their tastes? Maybe they want someone who has traits they personally find cool, or someone they can self insert or relate to better? Or maybe they think Gokû won't get the character development they want for him, so they'd rather boot him and replace him with someone who would get the development they want to see?
I don't know the answer, but that's my theory.

[dbzfan7]

I don't want the torch getting passed because I like Gokû and find him entertaining.

If I had to guess, maybe people want someone to replace him because they don't like Gokû, or don't relate to him well, so they want to replace him with someone more to their tastes? Maybe they want someone who has traits they personally find cool, or someone they can self insert or relate to better? Or maybe they think Gokû won't get the character development they want for him, so they'd rather boot him and replace him with someone who would get the development they want to see?
I don't know the answer, but that's my theory.

Not taking sides here, but analysing possible reasons.

Don't like Goku: I don't think that's ever been something a bunch a people want Goku to step down for. I'm pretty sure most of if not everyone likes Goku to some degree.

Replace him for someone more to a viewers taste: I think that may be why some people would want him to step down. I don't hear that reason much or at all honestly, but possibly that's why. Perhaps some don't like em as much as a few other characters as Goku is too different from them. Some people prefer characters who closer relate to them, than characters who are wildly different and bring their own intrigue.

Goku character development: That's definitely one of the reasons for some people....more so the lack of it. Plenty of people feel Goku hardly ever develops or grows as much as he should, and perpetually remains the same. So he gets boring. His shtick gets really old as he hardly is ever phased by much.

Other reasons I've heard are....

Screen time: Dragon Ball Z gave a lot more characters chances to hold onto a story driving role. While the first half of the series let Goku pretty much always be in the drivers seat, Z changed things up. Z had removed Goku so much that it's arguable that characters like Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo may have had more screen time than Goku did. So when Super reverted back to the more classic style where Goku was mostly in the drivers seat, people were unhappy it meant everyone else would be inconsequential side characters. People also bring up how GT essentially glorifyied and overused Goku too much, hence Goku Time being a synonym name for GT. This causes some to hate or be annoyed by Goku either taking too much screen time, or everyone else just being underused.

New Generation going nowhere: As shown we've had Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Oob all as torch bearing candidates. some people are unhappy that Gohan was built up to be a successor, but Toriyama changed his mind. Some don't like how Goten and Trunks are prodigies who could have been great leaping points, but never really were given a chance to do much worthwhile, without Gotenks. Some liked Pan and Oob, and are unhappy the focus on Goku means Pan and Oob will never have a chance.

I'm sure someone can list more of the common reasons, but that's all I got. These don't all particularly reflect me, but they are observations I've seen.

[EXBadguy]

But although I do like all the supporting characters and don't mind them being more involved, there is an issue with them being the main character. It is the problem of archetypes. Gohan, no matter how good a fighter he is is not Goku's archetype. He is not even Piccolo's archetype. He can't fulfill that role and thus the stories that revolve around him will be very different stories. They can be a part of DB as B-plots, but they can't be the A-plot without making Dragon Ball a different story.

That is what Piccolo tells Goku in the Cell Games: Gohan is not the person you think he is, and can't just tag you out of a fight just because he is stronger or has more potential. He did end up killing Cell that day, but it was a very… for lack of a better phrasing, traumatic. You can't have a story made up just of that. The Gohan would have to be Future Gohan living in an apocalyptic world.

Well, I'm not saying Gohan has to be a Goku-wannabe. I'm just saying to expand his development as a fighter and a unique successor. Sure, you can say that Gohan's SSJ2 transformation was traumatic, but the Kamehameha struggle and the short stand-off with Super Cell before Vegeta interrupted, I don't think it's that way, I think it's more of him growing a pair and realizing that daddy can't live forever. That's the development that was praised and was wished to expand by many people, myself included.

And before anyone says what about school, well he could've studied and then train on his free time. I dunno why there are excuses.

Pan and Uub, honestly, they were in like one scene in DBZ, but they could be developed into Goku type characters. It is just getting them to the point where they are compelling, developed personalities first that would be the problem, and there would have to be a lot of plot to get there. GT was the place to do that, and they missed that opportunity.

I'm confused. Are you saying that Uub and Pan becoming compelling characters are a bad thing?

[fadeddreams5]

Pretty sure she means it'd be hard to make them compelling characters without shifting the focus away from the others, besides Goku, and giving it to them. They'd need a lot of screen time. Otherwise, they'll just be the usual background cheerleader characters.

Doing this, however, is risky. Can Toriyama or whomever execute this properly? He already fucked up with Gohan.

[JulieYBM]

If you retire Gokuu and Vegeta the general plots of Dragon Ball stories would have to change. Neither Gohan, Goten nor Trunks care about training or fighting for fun. Kuririn is retired and focused on his family, perhaps not too different from Toriyama Akira at this point. Tenshinhan is never going to amount to anything and Piccolo doesn't have the charisma of a lead character.

Lest a huge Dragon Ball fan produce his own take on the franchise Gokuu and Vegeta will never be retired.

[ABED]

Shows are a reflection of the lead character, DB would be very different if someone else besides Goku was the lead.

[Relenanator]

If you retire Gokuu and Vegeta the general plots of Dragon Ball stories would have to change. Neither Gohan, Goten nor Trunks care about training or fighting for fun. Kuririn is retired and focused on his family, perhaps not too different from Toriyama Akira at this point. Tenshinhan is never going to amount to anything and Piccolo doesn't have the charisma of a lead character.

Lest a huge Dragon Ball fan produce his own take on the franchise Gokuu and Vegeta will never be retired.

Looking at the end of DBZ and the Neko Buu manga, Pan seems like the only one of the new gen who actively seeks to train and get better at fighting. Which is why I hated how weak and useless her GT counterpart was.

Anyway, retiring Goku and Vageta would be detrimental to the show as a whole, however I think it would have been nice to see other characters get some limelight. I really miss Piccolo and Yamcha could really use the character development.

It always made me wounder why they never did anything with these characters when Goku was dead for 7 years.

[Scarlet Spider]

Didn't Goku say he wanted the next generation to take over? That he wouldn't be around forever when having to deal with Kid Buu?

While it would be weird without Goku and Vegeta as leads, it would be nice for other Z fighters to at least not be so far behind. Especially Gohan, Buu, Piccolo, Goten/Trunks, 18.

[Draconic]

Rigth now it doesn't make much sense since there are no characters that fill their characteristics from a storytelling point of view. Goku wants to be the strongest and Vegeta is his rival, when you come down to it. Neither Gohan, nor Piccolo, Tien, Uub or anyone can fill those spots as their reasons for fighting are much different than the two. Coming close are Goten and Trunks but, if GT is anything to go by, they lose their interest in bettering their fighting skills and their rivalry is nowhere near Goku and Vegeta's. The only suitable protagonist that could take their place inthe future feels to be Pan, as she seems to have inherited a lot of Goku's traits and, with her being a kid at the EoZ she has a lot of room to grow into a charismatic and interesting character without necessarily being a rehash of Goku while still keeping the same feel of the series.

And really, from the very beggining of Dragon Ball Z Gohan was characterized as a fighter by accident. He had tons of potential, but he did not feel putting it to good use as it wasn't his calling. That contrast makes him a great character, not his strenght. In my opinion the decision to keep him as the strongest but out of the spotlight was the best. With him as the protagonist the Dragon Ball virtues would be lost. And he still got his due by killing Cell. He had a moment, a great moment, but it was enough. And Toryiama's style of storytelling makes all of this make sense and not feel out of place, even if you like it or not.

It would be nice though if some other characters could get a big moment like Cell's death, but you won't hear me complain that it doesn't make sense why they don't.

[Rockman X]

Rigth now it doesn't make much sense since there are no characters that fill their characteristics from a storytelling point of view.

But then again.. what is the use of Goku anyway? his character arc was complete in like Freeza Saga.. the only reason he's still kind of relevant is because of his rivalry with Vegeta.

Goten,Trunks&Gohan can become a new lead.. there's no point in dragging Goku's character anymore.

[Doctor.]

I don't want the torch getting passed because I like Gokû and find him entertaining.

If I had to guess, maybe people want someone to replace him because they don't like Gokû, or don't relate to him well, so they want to replace him with someone more to their tastes? Maybe they want someone who has traits they personally find cool, or someone they can self insert or relate to better? Or maybe they think Gokû won't get the character development they want for him, so they'd rather boot him and replace him with someone who would get the development they want to see?
I don't know the answer, but that's my theory.

As someone whose favorite character in any entertainment medium is Goku, and someone who's a fan of this idea, I'll tell you that my reason at least is definitely the last one you proposed. I don't think they're bothering to do anything interesting or different with the character (I could say the same thing for the series itself, really, but that's a different topic), so I want them to take him out of the main role before he eventually gets stale and I'm forced him, my favorite character ever, annoying at some point in time if things go on like they are right now. He's a character with a lot of potential for growth and to be put in interesting scenarios, yet they do nothing with him. BoG was a start but then F re-establishes the status quo once again.

Then there's also the fact that "passing the torch" is a theme very prominent and Dragon Ball, and something the series has been trying to do since the Cell arc. Really, if that theme was never brought up in that arc, most people wouldn't even care that Goku is still the main character. Also, I feel like most people who are against the idea think that taking Goku out of the main character spot means we'll never see him again. Not at all, I'd be pretty heartbroken if Goku is shoved to the side never to appear again or only in rare instances like Lunch for instance, unless it's at the very end of the series in a Cell arc-like finale. It just means he'd move onto a more secondary role, turning into more of a mentor or so, a similar role like in the Cell arc for instance.