With all things considered who is the strongest human?

[DanielSSJ]

If it weren't for Toriyama's statements, I'd say Tenshinhan. Why? Because, unlike Kuririn, Tenshinhan kept up his training aftert the Cell Games. Then again Toriyama is rather forgetful, so maybe Tenshinhan is the strongest? All in all, it doesn't really matter. Unless Super lets someone other than Goku and Vegeta do someithing important, both Kuririn and Tenshinhan will still be fodder.

At the same time though Kuririn had his potential unlocked on Namek by Saichorou, which Tenshinhan never had happen. So Tenshinhan would have had a good bit of catching up he needed to do to ever equal, let alone surpass, Kuririn again.

Besides, we have official blog statements about Revival of F indicating that Kuririn was still the strongest, even then, so that's not just Toriyama's word on the matter.

While Tenshinhan never got his potenial unleashed, Kuririn never trained on Kaio's planet. So the question is, which one superseeds the other. I'd also like to point out that Gohan had is potential unleased by Saichorou, but it still took him years to catch up to Goku and Vegeta in strength.

[Kaboom]

So the question is, which one supersedes the other.

The so-called question was already answered, several times over. First when Toriyama put a "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" line right there in the manga, then a few more times when the man himself and other official material repeated the same thing, even as far as the context of the new films.

There's no debate to be had because we already have the answer. It's Kuririn. He's stronger until we're told otherwise. There's nothing else to it other than, at the very most, to fill in the blanks of "why" and "how."

[Dbzk1999]

Guys, guys, I think we can all agree that the strongest human is in-fact this guy right here:

Spoiler:

I totally agr--

Spoiler:

nvm. =P

You know it to be true

Guys, guys, I think we can all agree that the strongest human is in-fact this guy right here:

Spoiler:

Didn't he become a God in a New 52 storyline?

Yup, in Johns N52 "Darkseid War" storyline still going on atm.

Uh huh, guess what dr doom's become anyways, the answer is obviously krillin, no doubt

[rereboy]

So the question is, which one supersedes the other.

The so-called question was already answered, several times over. First when Toriyama put a "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" line right there in the manga, then a few more times when the man himself and other official material repeated the same thing, even as far as the context of the new films.

There's no debate to be had because we already have the answer. It's Kuririn. He's stronger until we're told otherwise. There's nothing else to it other than, at the very most, to fill in the blanks of "why" and "how."

I don't think anyone was debating who of them actually is stronger according to Toriyama. The discussion was more about the indications of the manga towards who is stronger and who would make more sense to be stronger in the manga. There's a difference.

[Battousai]

I always believed Ten's the strongest. He even deflected Super Buu's fireball with Kikoho, saving Dende and Satan, and delayed Cell for several minutes with his Shin Kikoho. Kuririn never even bothered to slow down the big guys, because he simply can't.


Another point for Tenshinhan is the latest movie. He faired better in FnF than Kuririn, IMO. He wasn't never in danger. On the contrary, Goku's best friend almost got killed.
Gohan had to save Kuririn from Frieza's henchmen. Tenshinhan somewhat crowd controlled the soldiers. Well Kuririn couldn't, he need to literally escape and almost got killed.


Even with Yamcha's line in Buu saga... Well that's just that: words. Don't prove anything.

[Soppa Saia People]

I always believed Ten's the strongest. He even deflected Super Buu's fireball with Kikoho, saving Dende and Satan, and delayed Cell for several minutes with his Shin Kikoho. Kuririn never even bothered to slow down the big guys, because he simply can't.


Another point for Tenshinhan is the latest movie. He faired better in FnF than Kuririn, IMO. He wasn't never in danger. On the contrary, Goku's best friend almost got killed.
Gohan had to save Kuririn from Freeza's henchmen. Tenshinhan somewhat crowd controlled the soldiers. Well Kuririn couldn't, he need to literally escape and almost got killed.


Even with Yamcha's line in Buu saga... Well that's just that: words. Don't prove anything.

Okay one, it was a blast for Mr. Satan and Dende I doubt he was putting that much effort into it and two Ten could have been facing stronger soldiers.

[Neon Z]

So the question is, which one supersedes the other.

The so-called question was already answered, several times over. First when Toriyama put a "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling" line right there in the manga, then a few more times when the man himself and other official material repeated the same thing, even as far as the context of the new films.

There's no debate to be had because we already have the answer. It's Kuririn. He's stronger until we're told otherwise. There's nothing else to it other than, at the very most, to fill in the blanks of "why" and "how."

There's that odd mention from the Daizenshu that would likely make Tenshinhan a non-human as far as disputing Kuririn's title goes. It's not like Toriyama has outright said that Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan, which is what's important here. In the current situation, saying that Kuririn is the strongest human makes it sound more like Tenshinhan doesn't count as a human for some reason.

Okay one, it was a blast for Mr. Satan and Dende I doubt he was putting that much effort into it and two Ten could have been facing stronger soldiers.

It was a blast to kill Dende after Buu noticed his healing abilities. Freeza did the same thing and no one was able to stop him there. That's the problem in general with Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan. It only works if you assume that for some reason everyone who approaches Tenshinhan starting from the Android Saga and on holds back in order to avoid hurting his feelings or something.

When Goku confronts #20, and Tenshinhan is right beside him, #20 suddenly releases an eye beam that both Goku and Tenshinhan dodge, before Goku complains and takes the battle out of town. Of course, after that, there's the much more impressive and infamous Shin Kikoho vs Semi-Perfect Cell incident.

In the Cell Jr battle, Kuririn goes to the ground and has his back broken in two attacks, Yamcha is on the ground after one, while Tenshinhan is the only human actually shown still standing and fighting against the Cell Jrs. Of course, he falls too by the end of the chapter.

Then, there's the incident with Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) mentioned above.

In the recent anime productions, in RoF, we have Tenshinhan having no problems in the grunt battle, unlike Kuririn, and, in Super, Tenshinhan takes the same hit that takes down #18 and Piccolo, and still is conscious afterwards. It should be noted though, apparently the bit from RoF wasn't really in Toriyama's script. He only seems to mention that Gohan was the strongest of the group and Piccolo in 2nd place. I also really don't think that scene from Super had any direct input from Toriyama.

It just seems kind of silly to fight so much for this title though, considering how it basically doesn't mean anything. Both Toriyama and Toei seem to portray Tenshinhan as stronger than Kuririn in spite of Kuririn being the one officially called "strongest human" by both.

[Kaboom]

There's that odd mention from the Daizenshu that would likely make Tenshinhan a non-human as far as disputing Kuririn's title goes.

The very same book that first pinned Ten as a distant descendant of aliens still categorized him as an Earthling, right alongside Kuririn. It means nothing. Kuririn's still the strongest Earthling.

It just seems kind of silly to fight so much for this title though, considering how it basically doesn't mean anything.

Then why do so many people go "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" and wrongly insist that it belongs to Tenshinhan despite everything saying it doesn't?

[fadeddreams5]

People don't insist that it belongs to Tien; they insist that it should belong to Tien, based on comparisons from the manga. We can't argue with official material, but the manga did a bad job showing Krillin's supposed superiority.

If I'm not mistaken, most "official power levels" always have Tien (Saiyan saga) ahead too, so go figure.

[Saiga]

People don't insist that it belongs to Tenshinhan; they insist that it should belong to Tenshinhan, based on comparisons from the manga. We can't argue with official material, but the manga did a bad job showing Krillin's supposed superiority.

If I'm not mistaken, most "official power levels" always have Tenshinhan (Saiyan saga) ahead too, so go figure.

The official power levels end with Kuririn having 75,000 and Tenshinhan receiving nothing new from the Saiyan arc.

Before that, yes, we've got Tenshinhan higher because that was before the event that made Kuririn stronger.

For what it's worth, from reading the manga I thought Kuririn was stronger before I saw Toriyama's confirmation or knew of Yamcha's line. So I don't for a second believe that Tenshinhan would be seen as the undisputed strongest if not for those things.

[rereboy]

The official power levels end with Kuririn having 75,000 and Tenshinhan receiving nothing new from the Saiyan arc.

Before that, yes, we've got Tenshinhan higher because that was before the event that made Kuririn stronger.

For what it's worth, from reading the manga I thought Kuririn was stronger before I saw Toriyama's confirmation or knew of Yamcha's line. So I don't for a second believe that Tenshinhan would be seen as the undisputed strongest if not for those things.

Why did you see Krillin as stronger? What happened in the Cell arc and Buu arc for you to think Krillin was stronger? Why did you assume that Krillin was definitely stronger than Tenshinhan at the end of the Namek arc when Piccolo got much stronger just from a little time at Kaio's planet while Tenshinhan spent more time training at Kaio's planet than Goku did?

Personally, I can pinpoint exactly why it feels that Tenshinhan is superior with what happens in the manga. For example, I see no reason to think that Krillin is superior to Tenshinhan at the end of the Namek arc since he spent so much time at Kaio's place and we saw how much Piccolo benefited just from a little time there, so, at the very least, at this point, I see no way to assume which one is stronger, it seems pretty unknowable to me. Then, during the Cell arc, even though there's no way to directly compare the two, what happens in the manga scenes makes it feel like Tenshinhan is superior, namely all the fight scenes where the two are somewhat involved, so, here, I feel like it's not as unknowable as before, and if we want to assume which one is stronger, then it really can only be assumed that Tenshinhan is the one who is stronger. Then, at the Buu arc, we have that Yamcha line that goes against what seemed to be what would be assumed in the previous arc, but then, once again, during this arc, even though there's no way to directly compare the two, what happens in the manga scenes makes it feel like Tenshinhan is superior, namely all the fight scenes where the two are somewhat involved.

In short, besides the Yamcha line, I don't see why you would assume Krillin is superior based in the manga.

[Neon Z]

The very same book that first pinned Ten as a distant descendant of aliens still categorized him as an Earthling, right alongside Kuririn. It means nothing. Kuririn's still the strongest Earthling.

Wasn't that actually a separate Daizenshuu number? The strongest earthlings besides all the earthlings that don't count as earthlings, apparently.

Then why do so many people go "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" and wrongly insist that it belongs to Tenshinhan despite everything saying it doesn't?

Like I said there, because Kuririn's "strongest human" title is completely empty in this sense, since neither Toriyama nor Toei have ever actually portrayed him like that. The only place where I've seen it actually used was in the freaking Budokai game series.

The idea that "Kuririn is the strongest human, so Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan" only works if you make a bunch of other assumptions on top of that to explain away several scenes with Tenshinhan from the Cell Saga and on, but the only reason you'd need to make up these explanations in the first place is just to keep Kuririn's title relevant. It's completely counter-intuitive.

Now that was kind of understandable when the series was dead and "finished", however, the series is receiving new material and his title still seems to be irrelevant, yet people still latch onto it, and some even complain about Kuririn's portrayal not lining up with it. It just seems like a big joke.

[Kaboom]

In short, besides the Yamcha line, I don't see why you would assume Krillin is superior based in the manga.

There's likewise no real tangible reason to believe it's Tenshinhan either. Like I've pointed out before, everything he's done only shows that he's braver, or more serious and imposing, or has a more haxed attack. He's done nothing to even hint that he's actually stronger than Kuririn. Nothing has even indirectly compared the two since the Saiyan arc.

Wasn't that actually a separate Daizenshuu number?

Nope, Daizenshuu #4's racial guide. Tenshinhan's grouped in with the Earthlings, in the "martial artist" sub-group. He has a special little blurb pointing out his distant alien heritage as the cause for his freaky techniques, yet he's still labeled as an Earthling through and through.

The idea that "Kuririn is the strongest human, so Kuririn is stronger than Tenshinhan" only works if you make a bunch of other assumptions on top of that to explain away several scenes with Tenshinhan from the Cell Saga and on, but the only reason you'd need to make up these explanations in the first place is just to keep Kuririn's title relevant.

Not at all. Nothing Tenshinhan did during or after the Androids/Cell arc demonstrate him as being stronger than anyone.

He never succeeded in defeating an enemy who defeated Kuririn (or even STALLED an enemy with the same technique as Kuririn's which failed). He never had his power read by No.16 and compared to Kuririn's. He never got a haughty "you may be the strongest of your race but you're still a speck of dust compared to me" boast from Vegeta or Cell. Absolutely nothing of the sort.

What did he do? He stayed behind while Kuririn got sent on an errand, which means nothing unless you think Gohan's weaker than him too. He leapt headfirst into a hopeless fight while Kuririn (wisely) chickened out, which shows he's braver or just more reckless. He stalled Cell with a huge, ridiculously broken life-threatening attack, one which Kuririn doesn't know, making that useless for any comparison.

So what, exactly, happened in the Cell arc to even hint that Tenshinhan is stronger than anyone else?

[rereboy]

There's likewise no real tangible reason to believe it's Tenshinhan either. Like I've pointed out before, everything he's done only shows that he's braver, or more serious and imposing, or has a more haxed attack. He's done nothing to even hint that he's actually stronger than Kuririn. Nothing has even indirectly compared the two since the Saiyan arc.

I never said there was, which is why I stated multiple times that there is no actual comparison between the two. However, like I said, given what happens, if we are going to assume that one of them is stronger than the other, then Tenshinhan is the natural and obvious choice. Without the Yamcha line, assuming that Krillin is the stronger one is, like it was mentioned, quite counter-intuitive going by the manga.

Not at all. Nothing Tenshinhan did during or after the Androids/Cell arc demonstrate him as being stronger than anyone.

Which is why nobody is talking about anything demonstrating or proving that he is superior. Like it was stated, there is nothing to directly compare the two. However, what is there, what happens in the fights where they participate, the way they are used, what they do, and so on, points more towards Tenshinhan being the more natural and obvious assumption regarding who is stronger, making the assumption that Krillin is the stronger one counter-intuitive.

So what, exactly, happened in the Cell arc to even hint that Tenshinhan is stronger than anyone else?

To hint? Plenty. For example, there is no real or actual comparison between Tenshinhan and Yamcha in the Cell arc regarding power. If we look just at that arc, forgetting everything else we know from other arcs, all the differences between them could have been explained by Tenshinhan simply being braver than Yamcha and Yamcha having cold feet after being so easily wrecked and almost killed by #20, which could also have happened to Tenshinhan for all that we know. However, going by that arc, if we are going to assume which one of the two is stronger, which one would we assume is stronger? Yamcha? Not really, since even though there's no real proof, it would be counter-intuitive due to what happens in that arc.

It's the same thing regarding Tenshinhan and Krillin. After the end of the Namek arc, everything besides that Yamcha line makes assuming that Krillin is stronger counter-intuitive. And it's impossible to say which one of them is stronger at the end of the Namek arc btw, because even with assumptions there is no way to tell, no hint or anything else regarding which one could be stronger then.

And this trend continues in the Buu arc even after the Yamcha line, with the notion of Krillin being stronger than Tenshinhan still very counterintuitive due to what happens regarding the two characters in the arc.

[Friezacooler]

It's obviously Mr Satan did you see the villains he faced damn and he is got one of them on his side now.

[Neon Z]

Nope, Daizenshuu #4's racial guide. Tenshinhan's grouped in with the Earthlings, in the "martial artist" sub-group. He has a special little blurb pointing out his distant alien heritage as the cause for his freaky techniques, yet he's still labeled as an Earthling through and through.

Yes, I mixed up things there. Still, see the second part of my post. #8 is listed in those pages about Earthlings when they show the Red Ribbon Army, but obviously the strongest earthling statement is ignoring androids.

He stalled Cell with a huge, ridiculously broken life-threatening attack, one which Kuririn doesn't know, making that useless for any comparison.

Why is the attack "ridiculously broken"? Last time it was used, with full power in a single shot, rather than spread into three or four, it did basically nothing to Nappa. And yet, split attacks against Cell manage to push him back? The only reason the Kikoho is assumed to be "ridiculously broken" is exactly to explain away that scene. It was described as much stronger than a Kamehameha in its introduction, but that one occasion against Cell is the only reason people would suggest that it must be something crazy like a 100x multiplier or much higher.

So what, exactly, happened in the Cell arc to even hint that Tenshinhan is stronger than anyone else?

He dodged one of Gero's eye beams. He was still standing and (attempting) to counter attack a Cell Jr. after being kicked in the face while Kuririn was down in one hit. Of course, he was down by the end of the chapter too, but Kuririn (and Yamcha like shown on the background shot I posted above) fell much quicker.

And, of course, in the Buu arc, he manages to stop Buu from killing Dende after noticing his regeneration when not even Piccolo managed to stop Freeza in a similar scenario back in the Namek arc.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Tien's held in high regard by Gotenks Boo:

Boo: “…That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick…You’re making some empty boasts…Frankly, no matter what you try, you absolutely won’t be able to even inflict damage on me.”

Some might say that's the Piccolo in Boo recognizing Tien, but it's still a nice point in Tien's favor. However:

AT's Word>Boo's Opinion>Yamcha's Opinion

So Krillin's still the strongest.

[Kuririn Fan]

Kuririn strongest there is!!!
Proof ?
Old Kuririn > GT base kid Goku > everyone else

[Saiga]

Boo's opinion doesn't contradict Yamcha's anyway. He's clearly pointing out how Tenshinhan is no match for him despite his own skill, which means nothing as a comparison as they are all ants before Boo.

He didn't praise Kuririn in that way... but he didn't praise 18 either. Tenshinhan > 18?

So even without AT's word, it's silly to put Boo's above Yamcha's.

[Kid Buu]

As a kid I always thought Krillin was stronger because Krillin was usually given important things to do while Tenshinhan was just partnered up with Yamcha as some sought of B-team duo. Before anyone mentions Tenshinhan isn't really paired up with Yamcha in the manga remember that I got in the series through the anime and video games before I ever read the manga.

I really feel as if Yajirobe, Kame Sennin, and even Tao Paipai are stronger than Chaozu. I guess after receiving God's training for the Saiyans, Chaozu probably surpassed Tao, but the other two? That is the point where we do start giving out numbers to people, so, does Chaozu have a confirmed BP higher than Roshi and Yajirobe?

Don't forget Chaozu also trained with Kaio in 10x gravity for a while. I say he easily beats those three in power.