Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I honestly don't see the issue with Goku being weaker than 100% Freeza.

When Kaioshin first meets Goku at the Budokai, he admits that he's not confident he'll win, but he wants to see how strong Goku is. It's later revealed that they knew Gohan could transform into a Super Saiyan, so it's only right that they'd be aware of Goku's ability to do the same.

The manga never shows anything conclusive that would place the Base Saiyans above Freeza. There's little things like Vegeta thinking he'll win the tournament in Base, but stuff like that could go either way. He seemed to be more focused on defeating Goku and Gohan, if anything. Some believe Pui-Pui is superior to Freeza because of Kaioshin's fear--Yakon as well. I personally think Pui-Pui is trash in terms of power, however, Kaioshin was quite astonished by Base Vegeta's power. Does that mean Base Vegeta is more powerful than Kaioshin? Nope. It strongly implies Base Vegeta is not a total weakling, though. Kaioshin definitely wasn't scared of Pui-Pui, either. He completely ignores him upon seeing him outside of Bobbidi's spaceship.

Yakon? That can honestly go either way as well. The Daizenshuu makes it clear that Kaioshin is afraid of Yakon. Whether he's afraid of his power, sucking ability, or whatever, he's scared of the beast. Goku landed a kick on him, but that was because Yakon wasn't expecting him to evade his attacks in the dark. For all we know, Goku could be weaker, or barely stronger. After Goku's Super Saiyan aura is devoured, Gohan is considering fighting Yakon along with Goku so he won't have to become a Super Saiyan. I don't recall anything being stated about Yakon's power changing from eating the Super Saiyan light, so in terms of raw power, it should still be the same Yakon. Gohan goes from believing Goku will handle Yakon alone to believing he'll need to fight with him. So Yakon appears to be quite powerful. Above Freeza? No way of telling. Above the Base Saiyans? Very possible. Above Kaioshin? Also possible.

Outside of that, there isn't much else on the Base Saiyans. Cell admits that Trunks had improved when he kiai'd him out of the city, but all that means is Trunks gained power since the spy robots last calculated how strong he was. Nothing more than that. Anyway, I'm glad BoG's/Super clarifies this. The Base Saiyans don't really do anything in the series by the Boo saga, so I don't think their levels really matters.

[Speedster]

The manga never shows anything conclusive that would place the Base Saiyans above Freeza.

You forgot that we also saw Lazulli having a hard time against base Goten and Trunks and it makes no sense to hold back to say 1% of her power level (in a scale that 2x increase is major mind you) and keep struggling for nothing when she is actively trying to win the tournament. It was arguably a similar level of difference as against SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga (and in any case certainly not a 100x difference) and we know for a fact that SSJ Vegeta of the Android saga > Freeza.

By the way another related topic is that in "Yo Son Goku and his Friends return" which was written by Toriyama, Abo and Kado were said to be at Freeza's level. Goku was disappointed that Abo and Kado were only at Freeza's level (and most probably had 100% final form Freeza in mind when he said so as he was hoping for a challenge) but thought they would be a good test for Goten and Trunks who we later see fighting against them in base.

[AvatarReiko]

Goku and the Z-senshu walking about their daily lives at maximum base power is a silly notion. All the evidence says otherwise. Goku was literally standing around doing nothing when Beerus assesed him. I find it highly unlikely that Goku was at his maximum base power when Beerus made that statement. This is not even considering the fact he can multiply his power without going SSJ with Kaioken.

[Darkprince410]

The manga never shows anything conclusive that would place the Base Saiyans above Freeza.

You forgot that we also saw Lazulli having a hard time against base Goten and Trunks and it makes no sense to hold back to say 1% of her power level (in a scale that 2x increase is major mind you) and keep struggling for nothing when she is actively trying to win the tournament. It was arguably a similar level of difference as against SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga (and in any case certainly not a 100x difference) and we know for a fact that SSJ Vegeta of the Android saga > Freeza.

She was only having a hard time against them because she didn't know who they were, and suggested she wasn't using her full strength because she couldn't get a peg on why he was as strong as he was (given that she thought he was just an ordinary human.

By the way another related topic is that in "Yo Son Goku and his Friends return" which was written by Toriyama, Abo and Kado were said to be at Freeza's level. Goku was disappointed that Abo and Kado were only at Freeza's level (and most probably had 100% final form Freeza in mind when he said so as he was hoping for a challenge) but thought they would be a good test for Goten and Trunks who we later see fighting against them in base.

Toriyama only came up with the original draft for it, not the actual whole story. That was written by Takao Koyama who wrote it. Besides, you have to take into account Tarble's frame of reference for Freeza's strength. He shouldn't logically know about Freeza's 3rd or final form, so how could he make a comment about Abo and Cado being as strong as those two forms? At best, he'd only know of Freeza's 2nd form

[LightBing]

The manga never shows anything conclusive that would place the Base Saiyans above Freeza.

You forgot that we also saw Lazulli having a hard time against base Goten and Trunks and it makes no sense to hold back to say 1% of her power level (in a scale that 2x increase is major mind you) and keep struggling for nothing when she is actively trying to win the tournament. It was arguably a similar level of difference as against SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga (and in any case certainly not a 100x difference) and we know for a fact that SSJ Vegeta of the Android saga > Freeza.

By the way another related topic is that in "Yo Son Goku and his Friends return" which was written by Toriyama, Abo and Kado were said to be at Freeza's level. Goku was disappointed that Abo and Kado were only at Freeza's level (and most probably had 100% final form Freeza in mind when he said so as he was hoping for a challenge) but thought they would be a good test for Goten and Trunks who we later see fighting against them in base.

She didn't struggle, they didn't even touch her in base. They had the usual exchange, got in the air, she punched them into the ground and they turned Super Saiyans. She only showed concern after they fired a ki blast as Super Saiyans.

Abo and Kado, could only be as strong as 1st Form Freeza. Freeza himself said nobody even saw his true form. So when Tarble told Goku that they were was strong as Freeza, that was what they meant.

Goku and the Z-senshu walking about their daily lives at maximum base power is a silly notion. All the evidence says otherwise. Goku was literally standing around doing nothing when Beerus assesed him. I find it highly unlikely that Goku was at his maximum base power when Beerus made that statement. This is not even considering the fact he can multiply his power without going SSJ with Kaioken.

Does it make sense for Beerus to say that to Goku, knowing he was walking around with 5 as a power-level. Even if he was that naive/stupid, why then didn't he correct himself or why didn't Whis correct him. In all others instances, if the characters modify their power it is mentioned, while it happens or later.

[Sandubadear]

I had base Goku weaker than 100% Freeza even before BoG, and people tried hard to convince me otherwise, mainly with the 18 vs. Mighty Mask fight. Turns out I was right lol.

why would 18 go all-out on someone on the tournament if she can't sense ki and would lose if she killed someone?

[Hitiro]

Problem 1
Android 19 and 20 need to have a big power level difference amongst them while it is implied they are more or less comparable.

A variance around 25% has shown to be a big power difference in the story so I don't see why this is a problem.

I didn't argue the opposite. Even a 1.25x difference would be large and 2x would be huge but #19 and #20 were comparable. So a 30x difference amongst them cannot be justified. So something is wrong – and this is the 50x “official” SSJ1 multiplier and the statement that base Saiyans in BoGs are weaker than Freeza.

I don't see why you think they need to have a big power level deference between them?

Do you not recall the door to Dr. Gero's lab which neither Kuririn or Tenshinhan could kick down?

That scene makes absolutely zero sense to me. Even if the material of the door was impenetrable they could have destroyed the surrounding mountain. They did so later anyway.

The scene made perfect sense. Dr. Gero had created materials that could withstand impacts from super powered beings. While the mountain does get destroyed later it was probably the correct choice to try and get in through the door because if they destroy the mountain they can't guarantee they have destroyed Dr. Gero or the androids. Dr. Gero could have snuck away and developed even better androids for instance.

Considering a door with, let's pretend and say has a battle power of 1 as everything is supposed to have some form of Ki energy, was not damaged by two characters who have battle powers ranging from 10,000+ to 100,000 it is clear that while Android 19 could be substantially weaker his durability may make up for it.

So you are suggesting that #19 was about as strong as #20. Then Goku shouldn't have needed to turn SSJ1 against #19 given Piccolo defeated #20. Unless you support that Piccolo was in the same order of magnitude as SSJ1. Which is fine only if you accept that turning SSJ1 is not x50 the base.

Why can't Piccolo have gained a lot of strength during those 3 years? He was training with a SSJ. And no, it doesn't necessarily have to mean Piccolo is as strong as a SSJ. He could be only half as strong. Or weaker. Piccolo is also a character who is probably going to receive the most gains during those years anyway because Goku had received a lot of gains prior. In fact, Piccolo had demonstrated he could outgain Goku in the Namek arc seeing as in under a week he already increased his battle power up to a level which impressed Nail who was at 42,000.

This is based on the supposition that Piccolo was weaker than base Goku though. Which doesn't need to be the case.

Yes it does need to be the case. In the Namek saga Piccolo was around 1.2 million and base Goku was 3 million. There is no way in hell that Piccolo grew to 180 million while base Goku to only 5 million. 36x difference from Goku’s base. And when he turned Kamiccolo he did what? Just doubled it at best? He could train in RoSaT for an hour and get much stronger then. Also if Piccolo had anywhere near such a big growth factor relative to Goku and Vegeta then Kamiccolo would be much stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta after training in RoSaT for the same amount of time, especially given he entered the room being at a stronger state than Vegeta. Besides Goku was always said to grow his strength exponentially- that is proportional to his whichever current power level. That means adjustment of his growth factor - if it was constant his increase wouldn't be exponential but not even linear.

Goku grew his battle power by over 200x before this. Why can't Piccolo do something comparable? He already demonstrated a staggering growth prior to this just by training for a few days on Kaio's planet.

By a rule of thumb the SSJ's only need to be weaker than 25% for them to be sufficiently beaten by an opponent. And even there, there is some leeway. It should also probably be noted that gains started to tail off by this point. The characters couldn't simply grow by 10x stronger like they could prior to the Android arc. By the time Boo comes around Goku and Vegeta have difficulties catching up with a SSJ2 Enraged Gohan. Only surpassing him by a small amount.

Only if you consider SSJ1 as 50x multiplier of the base this becomes an issue.

I don't see how. Your gains will be relative no matter what so if you get 1.05x stronger in base your SSJ will also only be 1.05x stronger. As I said the Saiyan's, particularly, started to have their gains tail off. But all evidence points to Piccolo's gains were still big as that evidence suggests Piccolo > Base Saiyans when the Saiyans had to go SSJ to fight against the androids.

At the time 18 thought it was a human so she was obviously holding back majorly. Had she been going at 100% She would have probably decimated them until they turned SSJ.

This is a baseless assumption. There is no reason for her to keep using only 1% of her power and keep struggling. Also it was obvious to her from the get-go that Mighty mask was superior to an ordinary human – she even commented about it before they started fighting.

She only realised that he wasn't ordinary after they got up into the air. I would imagine she was scaling her power up slowly as to not kill him if he wasn't that much stronger. So the fact that she kept struggling would only mean that she was trying to match his power without slaughtering him.

The Kaioshin may be able to sense Ki but it doesn't seem he can do so very accurately otherwise he wouldn't be so shocked with Goku and Vegeta's performances.

No base Goku’s and Vegeta’s performances were actually impressive compared to Supreme Kai’s own strength. It is one thing to be 5% wrong and another to be 10,000% wrong. Remember that when Goku explained how power sensing works (to Gohan prior to him fighting Cell) he pretty much said that the way it works is by comparing the power you sense against your own. For Supreme Kai to be impressed it means that what he felt from base Goku and Vegeta was a power higher or at least comparable to his own. It doesn’t leave any room for a doubt.

There is no such explanation in the manga. In the anime sure. But it is never suggested that characters can gauge their own strength that way. We have numerous cases where characters misjudge their opponents because they can't compare themselves to their opponents. Even Vegeta in the Boo arc says "Maybe I'm stronger than you now." to Gohan. We know for a fact that Vegeta was stronger than Gohan, by a good margin in fact. But if he could do what you suggest then he would have instantly knew that he was stronger than Gohan. We also have all the times where characters can sense the power of their oppoents and still think they can win only to have their asses handed to them. Super Vegeta vs. Semi-Perfect Cell is a prime example. Semi-Perfect Cell should have known that Super Vegeta was vastly superior if he could compare his strength against Super Vegeta's. In the manga it works more like they have a vague feeling of how strong a character is. They can only confirm that feeling when they see how the person fights, or by extension, using some other characters power and fighting as a measuring pole.

Don't put much stock into the filler.

What makes Beerus’ comment in an anime scene more authoritative than another anime scene however? Besides Dragonball Super clearly portrays Piccolo weaker than base Saiyans. See how Vegeta stopped him going against Whis, how Piccolo went to watch the fight in the spaceship despite not being part of the ritual to give any energy and how he couldn't follow the battle while Vegeta could. See also Resurrection of F where we are supposed to believe that Shishami became 5x stronger than final form freeza in the Namek arc while definitely being below first form Freeza 4 months earlier – at least 1000x increase! Yeah sure…

I don't see how Super makes out the base Saiyan's are stronger than Piccolo. Vegeta stopped Piccolo because he knew it was pointless. And Piccolo not being able to watch Goku fight means nothing really as we don't know how their battle instincts translate to their power. The Saiyan's have to fight at a much higher level when they transform so their reflexes in their base forms may just be comparable to their SSJ forms. And as for Shishami there is nothing saying he was weaker than Freeza at that point. In fact, I believe one of the Japanese members of the forum stated that they were in no way talking about Shishami's strength when they were saying he is comparable to Dodoria and Zarbon. It was more than likely his rank in Freeza's army. It also took SSJ Gohan to beat him. So it is clear that Gohan < Piccolo < SSJ Gohan there.

The Genki Dama takes Genki from everyone on Earth. Even assuming a population of 6-8 billion with average battle powers of 5 that would only bring the Genki Dama up to 30-40 billion if all of the 5 represented Genki. But Genki is supposed to make up just one element of Ki so it is likely less than that. So yes, I still stand by the Base Saiyan's being weaker than 100% Freeza at that point in BoG.

First of all power levels are non-linearly related to real energy and strength. Say all humans could fire a Kamehameha of a power level of 10 and superimposed it into one. The power level of the combined attack will NOT be 5 billlion*5=25 billion. It will be much much weaker. With a power level of less than 100, Goku could move a 700 tonne boulder – can 20 humans do that if they all push against the boulder together? Apparently there is an exponential relationship between actual strength and power levels. But Genki doesn't work the same way Ki works anyway. It is not numerically related to Ki and power levels. If it was then Goten and Trunks would power up into Super Saiyans in order to donate more Genki. Apparently there is a great multiplication factor when Genki is converted into a destructive “Ki attack” through the Genki Dama technique.

I'm sorry. But Genki is a portion of Ki. Akira Toriyama stated this in an interview. So the battle power numbers we see include Genki within them. Now I've already covered this topic before. Obviously Genki only makes up a portion of your overall Ki and your battle power number. I was just providing very optimistic numbers when I put this out. There probably isn't a population of 6 billion on the Dragon Ball Earth either considering how sparse the cities and towns are and how much of the world is just barren/jungle. But their Genki would add up to a similar battle power. It doesn't become non-linear.

[Speedster]

and suggested she wasn't using her full strength because she couldn't get a peg on why he was as strong as he was (given that she thought he was just an ordinary human.

From where are you getting this from? She never explicitly established that she wasn’t using her full strength against Mighty Mask. You might say it is somewhat implied she wasn't using 100% but it was never established she was using 0.000000001% or 1%. On the contrary Lazuli acknowledged how powerful Mighty Mask was twice. Once before they started fighting saying “that weirdo packs quite a powerful punch in those little arms” and then right before they turned into Super Saiyans saying “his limbs are so small for his body but he is SO strong”.

She was only having a hard time against them because she didn't know who they were, and suggested she wasn't using her full strength because she couldn't get a peg on why he was as strong as he was (given that she thought he was just an ordinary human.

She didn't struggle, they didn't even touch her in base. They had the usual exchange, got in the air, she punched them into the ground and they turned Super Saiyans. She only showed concern after they fired a ki blast as Super Saiyans.

why would 18 go all-out on someone on the tournament if she can't sense ki and would lose if she killed someone?

From what we see their difference was similar to the one you see when someone has 1.3x higher power level than the other - like Goten and Trunks being at 75% of what Lazuli exhibited.

You have to remember that Goten and Trunks DID know who their opponent was from the beginning and that they did go all out. Now say that base Goten and Trunks have a max base power level of only 3 million. As they struggled against #18 it means that she DID put a performance of a power level of at least 3 million as well. If as you say Lazulli held back as she believed her opponent was just a strong human, this wouldn't be the case. A power level of 3 million would be way way too high for humans. Heck, even a super strong Goku at the 22nd TB had a power level of only around 180. Now had Lazulli chosen any power level lower than 3 million then Goten and Trunks would have defeated her.

Additionally before they started their exchange with #18, Trunks said to Goten that #18 was ONCE even more powerful than their dads. Given that Goten and Trunks said so while intending to fight her in their base it suggests they were referred to their dads’ base form too … apparently suggesting that this is no longer the case.

Toriyama only came up with the original draft for it, not the actual whole story.

Same applies to the last two movies and Dragonball Super. But this is a key element of the plot.

Besides, you have to take into account Tarble's frame of reference for Freeza's strength. He shouldn't logically know about Freeza's 3rd or final form, so how could he make a comment about Abo and Cado being as strong as those two forms? At best, he'd only know of Freeza's 2nd form

Abo and Kado, could only be as strong as 1st Form Freeza. Freeza himself said nobody even saw his true form. So when Tarble told Goku that they were was strong as Freeza, that was what they meant.

You have to see it from Goku’s perspective who wanted a challenge. And for HIM it was like this: Freeza (final form – the one that he FOUGHT, he NEVER fought the first form) was not a challenge anymore. And saying so he meant the 100% form was not a challenge because if you are going to mock someone as being too weak to be a worthy challenge, you won't be referring to their 1% or 50% but to their maximum. Then Goku continued and said: BUT they are a good test for Goten and Trunks. Then we see the boys fighting them in base. This implies that they are comparable to 100% final form Freeza. As simple as that.

The scene made perfect sense. Dr. Gero had created materials that could withstand impacts from super powered beings. While the mountain does get destroyed later it was probably the correct choice to try and get in through the door because if they destroy the mountain they can't guarantee they have destroyed Dr. Gero or the androids. Dr. Gero could have snuck away and developed even better androids for instance.

No the scene doesn't make ANY sense. Ultimately the door or its frame had to hold onto something and that something was the mountain rocks. A powerful impact onto the door would transmit the force onto the mountain rocks causing them to break therefore realising the door/creating an opening. They could drill the mountain too. And if you think it was an inner hollow hemisphere dome-like construction made by that super-material then it wouldn’t be destroyed later.

I don't see how. Your gains will be relative no matter what so if you get 1.05x stronger in base your SSJ will also only be 1.05x stronger.

I am talking about more power in the base and a smaller SSJ1 multiplier. If the SSJ result is going to be 100A it can be say either by having a base 25A and an SSJ mutliplier of 4 OR have a base of 2A and an SSJ multiplier of 50. If Piccolo is say anywhere between 25A and 36A the first scenario allows for base Saiyans to be comparable to Piccolo and Piccolo not too far from the Super Saiyans. The second scenario however requires Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) to be massively stronger than base Saiyans - something that does not make much sense if not at all.

But Genki is a portion of Ki. Akira Toriyama stated this in an interview. So the battle power numbers we see include Genki within them.

Not necessarily. True Genki is the energy part of the Ki but apparently it is subdivided into smaller components and the one that is donated for the construction of the Genki Dama sphere is unrelated to the battle power level – it is unquantifiable (or at least not quantifiable by power levels). We know this as Goten and Trunks didn't power up to SSJ to increase their battle power levels (and hence their Ki and hence the Genki) when they donated their own Genki for the Genki Dama that killed kid Buu.

[FoolsGil]

And another thing: Controversial character Shisami. In a matter of months he went from likely being as strong as Sorbet and Tagoma, to fighting evenly with Piccolo, the same Piccolo who after training for the Androids probably could have done as well as Goku did against Namek Freeza, and then he fused with Kami and could have killed 100% Freeza in one blow. Can you really say that Goku by BoG couldn't defeat Freeza when he had a decade's worth of training, but this random alien only had months to become Namek Freeza's superior?

[Darkprince410]

You have to remember that Goten and Trunks DID know who their opponent was from the beginning and that they did go all out. Now say that base Goten and Trunks have a max base power level of only 3 million. As they struggled against #18 it means that she DID put a performance of a power level of at least 3 million as well. If as you say Lazulli held back as she believed her opponent was just a strong human, this wouldn't be the case. A power level of 3 million would be way way too high for humans. Heck, even a super strong Goku at the 22nd TB had a power level of only around 180. Now had Lazulli chosen any power level lower than 3 million then Goten and Trunks would have defeated her.

Additionally before they started their exchange with #18, Trunks said to Goten that #18 was ONCE even more powerful than their dads. Given that Goten and Trunks said so while intending to fight her in their base it suggests they were referred to their dads’ base form too … apparently suggesting that this is no longer the case.

Or that she was only fighting them using power comparable to theirs, because if she let loose with her full strength against someone that she can't peg the strength of, she'd kill them. She doesn't know who they are and doesn't know their power at all, so there's no reason for her to use her full strength.

Besides, their comment about #18 once being stronger than their fathers is simply just referring to them previously being weaker than her, period, which was the case back during the early Cell Saga. It has nothing to do with their base strength compared to hers, simply that, at one time, she was stronger than they were at their best.

Same applies to the last two movies and Dragonball Super. But this is a key element of the plot.

No, as Toriyama was heavily responsible for writing the two movies. Scenario writer for Battle of Gods out right established that all he really did was rearrange Toriyama's ideas into script form, and he was completely involved in the RoF story.

You have to see it from Goku’s perspective who wanted a challenge. And for HIM it was like this: Freeza (final form – the one that he FOUGHT, he NEVER fought the first form) was not a challenge anymore. And saying so he meant the 100% form was not a challenge because if you are going to mock someone as being too weak to be a worthy challenge, you won't be referring to their 1% or 50% but to their maximum. Then Goku continued and said: BUT they are a good test for Goten and Trunks. Then we see the boys fighting them in base. This implies that they are comparable to 100% final form Freeza. As simple as that.

Literally none of that makes sense the way you're trying to describe it. Tarble says they're as strong as Freeza is, and is only aware of Freeza's 2nd form at best. Nothing about Goku's dialogue indicates in what state he thought the boys would fight them against, just that it'd be perfect for them. The fact that Trunks and Goten fought them so well in their base forms could very easily have been due to them being only Freeza's lower strength.

Alternately, even if Abo and Cado were based on Freeza's maximum strength, that still doesn't mean that Goku was strong enough to defeat Freeza in his base. Goten and Trunks were readily indicated to be comparable to the adults in terms of strength during the Buu Saga before their time in the Room of Spirit and Time, and there is a significant increase in power for Gotenks that it's easily possible that Goten and Trunks surpassed their fathers in terms of respective levels. After all, they increased their strength drastically enough that Piccolo indicated base Gotenks, after their training, had surpassed Ssj Gotenks (pre training), which would mean a comparable increase for the boys. So even if Trunks and Goten had surpassed Freeza in their base, that doesn't mean Goku did.

[Hugo Boss]

Aren't Abo and Cado as strong as Freeza? That justifies Goku going Super Saiyan to defeat them. Tarble pretty much did the same guess as Beerus. After Goku transforms, Tarble believes Goku will be enough to handle them.

[Lord Beerus]

Aren't Abo and Cado as strong as Freeza? That justifies Goku going Super Saiyan to defeat them. Tarble pretty much did the same guess as Beerus. After Goku transforms, Tarble believes Goku will be enough to handle them.

Well, it's implied they are strong as Freeza in his first form, as when Tarble makes mention that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza in the manga version of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, an image of first form Frieza is shown. Which would make sense considering no-one in Freeza's Army ever saw his true form apart from his first one.

[Speedster]

Well, it's implied they are strong as Freeza in his first form, as when Tarble makes mention that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza in the manga version of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, an image of first form Freeza is shown. Which would make sense considering no-one in Freeza's Army ever saw his true form apart from his first one.

Not quite. In the manga adaptation they did show a picture of first form Freeza but NOT when Tarble made a reference to the power level of Abo and Cado rivalling Freeza on page 33. The image of Freeza was shown much earlier (on page 21) when Tarble was explaining that he heard from the Namekians that Vegeta and those who defeated Freeza were located on Earth. And Vegeta did fight first form Freeza briefly.

[Darkprince410]

Well, it's implied they are strong as Freeza in his first form, as when Tarble makes mention that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza in the manga version of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, an image of first form Freeza is shown. Which would make sense considering no-one in Freeza's Army ever saw his true form apart from his first one.

Not quite. In the manga adaptation they did show a picture of first form Freeza but NOT when Tarble made a reference to the power level of Abo and Cado rivalling Freeza on page 33. The image of Freeza was shown much earlier (on page 21) when Tarble was explaining that he heard from the Namekians that Vegeta and those who defeated Freeza were located on Earth. And Vegeta did fight first form Freeza briefly.

Tarble, with that panel, is showing that he's only familiar with Freeza's first form, so no matter what, his estimation of Abo and Cado's strength is limited to Freeza's first form. So even if Goku had Freeza's full power in mind, that doesn't change that Trunks and Goten were fighting individuals with battle powers almost certainly lower than Freeza's full power.

Besides, if anything, the Jump Special actually supports that Freeza was stronger than Goku and the others in their base form, if we assume that Tarble was taking into consideration Freeza's full power (somehow). When Goku demonstrated the ability for them to power up and transform, it was only after Goku transformed that Tarble indicated that they had enough strength to take on Abo and Cado, which means that nothing his scouter picked up before was at a level range that he thought could take on Freeza.

[Speedster]

Tarble, with that panel, is showing that he's only familiar with Freeza's first form, so no matter what, his estimation of Abo and Cado's strength is limited to Freeza's first form. So even if Goku had Freeza's full power in mind, that doesn't change that Trunks and Goten were fighting individuals with battle powers almost certainly lower than Freeza's full power.
Besides, if anything, the Jump Special actually supports that Freeza was stronger than Goku and the others in their base form, if we assume that Tarble was taking into consideration Freeza's full power (somehow). When Goku demonstrated the ability for them to power up and transform, it was only after Goku transformed that Tarble indicated that they had enough strength to take on Abo and Cado, which means that nothing his scouter picked up before was at a level range that he thought could take on Freeza.

Tarble didn't see Freeza’s final form but that doesn’t stop him from knowing his maximum battle power level and that he is capable of transformations. Besides as I explained you have to see it from Goku’s perspective as it was Goku who made the statement about Goten and Trunks.

You also assume that Goku walks around in everyday life with his maximum base form which is certainly untrue to begin with plus Vegeta explained to Tarble to not rely on the scouter rating as they can raise their power level in battle (and he was not referring to SSJ transformations as anyone there was appearing weak including Piccolo, etc). By your logic you will also tell us that base Goku is even weaker than first form Freeza. As stated before by other members here the scene in “Yo Son Goku and his Friends return” is almost identical to the movie BoGs when Beerus made his assessment. Goku was not maxed up in base - not by a long shot.

As for the guide. Apart from the Toriyama interviews, the guides only provide a subjective analysis (like the one we do here) deriving things from the source material. Like for example working out the timelines (which they got it wrong by the way but that is another story) or deriving the SSJ mutlplier to be x50 from the KKx20 vs 50% Freeza. That has nothing to do though with the intent of the original creators (unless explicitly said to have been verified by the creators afterwards which was not the case here).

[Sora Saiyan]

I can't see how Goku and the other Saiyans were above Freeza in the Boo arc, but if they were it wasn't by much, especially once you consider that once Kaioshin tells Goku how the other Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in one blow and they were defeated by Boo Goku was amazed.

Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’..."

[Darkprince410]

Tarble, with that panel, is showing that he's only familiar with Freeza's first form, so no matter what, his estimation of Abo and Cado's strength is limited to Freeza's first form. So even if Goku had Freeza's full power in mind, that doesn't change that Trunks and Goten were fighting individuals with battle powers almost certainly lower than Freeza's full power.
Besides, if anything, the Jump Special actually supports that Freeza was stronger than Goku and the others in their base form, if we assume that Tarble was taking into consideration Freeza's full power (somehow). When Goku demonstrated the ability for them to power up and transform, it was only after Goku transformed that Tarble indicated that they had enough strength to take on Abo and Cado, which means that nothing his scouter picked up before was at a level range that he thought could take on Freeza.

Tarble didn't see Freeza’s final form but that doesn’t stop him from knowing his maximum battle power level and that he is capable of transformations. Besides as I explained you have to see it from Goku’s perspective as it was Goku who made the statement about Goten and Trunks.

Where and how would Tarble get such information? Sure, the Namekians might have access to knowing that Freeza could transform, but there's no way they'd be able to determine, let alone relate, Freeza's maximum battle power if they were indeed aware of it.

And though you "explained" it, your explanation is making the random assumption that Goku only intended them to fight Abo and Cado in their base forms if they were indeed as powerful as Freeza's maximum. Nothing about the course of events say what form he expected them to fight in or anything of the sort.

The facts of the matter are clear though. Since Tarble mentions nothing about learning that Freeza could transform or knew Freeza's full power, we can't assume for a moment that he has such knowledge. As such, Abo and Cado are, given the knowledge that we know Tarble could possibly have only knows, only in the one million range at best.

So, in short, nothing about that actually points to the base Saiya-jin being stronger than Freeza's full power.

As for the whole Goku transforming part, you're missing the point. If Goku and the others were drastically stronger than Freeza in their base forms, as you attest, then he wouldn't need to transform in order to show Tarble how powerful they could become, and, in turn, it shouldn't take Goku transforming for Tarble to believe that they "probably" should be enough.

[Speedster]

Where and how would Tarble get such information? Sure, the Namekians might have access to knowing that Freeza could transform, but there's no way they'd be able to determine, let alone relate, Freeza's maximum battle power if they were indeed aware of it. The facts of the matter are clear though. Since Tarble mentions nothing about learning that Freeza could transform or knew Freeza's full power, we can't assume for a moment that he has such knowledge. As such, Abo and Cado are, given the knowledge that we know Tarble could possibly have only knows, only in the one million range at best.

Why not? The Namekians were revived on Namek while Goku was fighting final form 100% Freeza and it took a minute or so before they were teleported to Earth. They could certainly sense how much more powerful Freeza had become and say something along the lines – he was 250x stronger than he used to be and Tarble take it from there.

And though you "explained" it, your explanation is making the random assumption that Goku only intended them to fight Abo and Cado in their base forms if they were indeed as powerful as Freeza's maximum. Nothing about the course of events say what form he expected them to fight in or anything of the sort.

Not a random assumption at all. Simply you are objecting without thinking mathematically...

What I say is that Goku (from his perspective) was disappointed by that Abo and Cado were only at (100%) Freeza’s level but suggested they would be a good test for Goten and Trunks. Then we do NOT see Goten and Trunks transforming into SSJ so this implies that base Goten and Trunks were equal to 100% Freeza.

For your objection and multipliers to work, the boys had to have a power level of 3milllion (thus by transforming into SSJ to go to 120million) BUT since this didn't happen and they actually fought Abbo and Cado in their base forms it would mean that Abbo and Cado were at 3 million too which is not the level of first form Freeza (530,000 which you claim they need to be due to the image shown in the manga) or what Namekians could have sensed when revived and tell Tarble. And if (as thought by Goku) Abbo and Cado were 120million but base Goten and Trunks were only on par with first form (530,000) Freeza then x50 as SSJ1 wouldn't be enough as it would only get them to 26.5million.

So, in short, EVERYTHING points to the base Saiya-jin being stronger than Freeza's full power.

Here fixed that for you.

As for the whole Goku transforming part, you're missing the point. If Goku and the others were drastically stronger than Freeza in their base forms, as you attest, then he wouldn't need to transform in order to show Tarble how powerful they could become, and, in turn, it shouldn't take Goku transforming for Tarble to believe that they "probably" should be enough.

Tarble made no mention of a Freeza-level opponent by that point. For Goku they could still possibly be the very powerful challenging opponent requiring him to turn SSJ. And Goku showed him his SSJ form instead of SSJ2 or SSJ3 for the same reason he first powered up to SSJ1 against Beerus. If someone is missing the point this is certainly not me.

[Speedster]

I can't see how Goku and the other Saiyans were above Freeza in the Boo arc, but if they were it wasn't by much, especially once you consider that once Kaioshin tells Goku how the other Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in one blow and they were defeated by Boo Goku was amazed.

Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’..."

We cannot quantify the "single blow" as you need a single blow to kill someone regardless of how powerful you are - you can't do so with zero blows. Beerus defeated Piccolo or Tenshinhan with one blow. What does that tell you?

[Darkprince410]

Why not? The Namekians were revived on Namek while Goku was fighting final form 100% Freeza and it took a minute or so before they were teleported to Earth. They could certainly sense how much more powerful Freeza had become and say something along the lines – he was 250x stronger than he used to be and Tarble take it from there.

The information they relayed to Tarble was clearly incomplete/less than accurate, for despite them clearly knowing, by the Cell Saga, that it was Goku that defeated Freeza, Tarble came to Earth under the assumption that it was Vegeta that defeated him. Likewise, he clearly has no concept of what a Super Saiya-jin is, despite it being firmly established that the Namekians know that it was a Super Saiya-jin that defeated Freeza.

If they didn't impart that information to him, why would they impart specific information such as Freeza being 250x stronger than he was before. Without it being stated or inferred, you can't make that assumption, so saying that he had that knowledge is baseless.

What I say is that Goku (from his perspective) was disappointed by that Abo and Cado were only at (100%) Freeza’s level but suggested they would be a good test for Goten and Trunks. Then we do NOT see Goten and Trunks transforming into SSJ so this implies that base Goten and Trunks were equal to 100% Freeza.

You keep describing the events, but nothing about that implies or indicates that they were equal to 100% Freeza in their base forms. Goku's comment can readily be taken as just Freeza, in general, not being that major of an enemy, given that they've dealt with the likes of Cell and Buu since then. You equate it to solely be about Freeza's full power, but his comment can, and given the way he stated it, most likely is, just referring to Freeza as a whole.

Regardless of whether it makes sense mathematically or not, the fact is that Tarble makes absolutely no indication that he has knowledge of Freeza's later transformations or battle power, so we have to base everything around that information. Even if that somehow means a total retcon or significant weakening of Trunks and Goten's strength to where they're somehow vastly weaker than Freeza is even as Super Saiya-jin, we have to accept that over just randomly assuming that Tarble acquired information on exactly how strong Freeza was.