Beerus Did It -Overpowered Feats or Lazy Storytelling?

[Lord Frieza]

How is Beerus being the one who sealed away old kai any different from Frieza being the one who destroyed planet Vegeta?

Befor anyone throws a fit, I ask you to first forget how integral and established it is as a part of the story and think about it this way, it is never explained why Frieza lied about this act. When we first heir the story Raditz says it was destroyed by a meteor but then we are told it was Frieza however in that same chapter we also find out that Vegeta didn't care about his planet or race's at all, infact it seems to imply that Vegeta had guessed as much any way. Now you can make up any kind of explanation for this but there is no given reason in the written story for the cover up and it seems silly and pointless when you consider the fact that Frieza is so feared because he dose such things on a regular bases. So just like Beerus, Frieza had a bit of retconning done to make him more threatening and have a greater tie to Goku and Vegeta.

All in all things like this can be explained away any way you like, I for example choose to believe that Frieza was going to destroy Vegeta anyway, Beerus's request was just another reason to do the deed. As for the whole Old Kai thing either Beerus was weaker then Buu all those years ago or possibly he lye'd for the same reason all the kai's tried to hide Beerus's existence from Goku in BoG, because they didn't want Goku to do something stupid.

[ekrolo2]

Instead it turned out to be a terrible miscalculation, because Freeze was not using minimal portion of its power throughout the fight. In addition, he creveva can beat him despite warnings and ammunition of King Kai, about its power and its dangerous.

One that doesn't come from arrogance or him putting fighting ahead of reason. A costly mistake yes but unlike a few others, this isn't an example of Goku simply letting his Saiyan nature do the talking for him.

And we saw how it went. Also, thought ho beat Boo concentrating all energies of SSJ3 in a minute; another failure.

My point still stands, Goku wouldn't have refused fusion if he didn't have a good idea he could still win on his own. He lets his Saiyan nature get the better of him but he got a clear idea of where Kid Boo stands and where he stands at SSJ3. The only thing he didn't account for is his living body not being able to take 3. Now, if Kid Boo was at Super Boo's level and Goku STILL crushed the potara, then he'd be letting Saiyan logic completely rule over him.

End even this it turned out to be yet another miscalculation. Now, it is not my wish to try to say that these initiatives had it's not a solid reasoning behind, but only to make you understand how many mistakes is usually commit.

Not a miscalculation born out of a desire to make things more interesting. If anything, this is one miscalculation that's got plenty enough solid reasoning behind it for why you could say Goku was right for not magically knowing the virus would hit at the worst possible moment.

The only case maybe, where Goku was right.
Gohan was the only one who could do and the point of Piccolo, on not talking to his son about his intentions, he is flawed, because Gohan is fully aware of his father's intentions (remember the speech in Cell).
The only case, also, where Goku insisted to give the final blow to the enemy, without getting crazy ideas to possible futore battle, and spare he.

Thank you for admitting the story is openly taking a dump on the idea that everyone just blindly trusts whatever Goku says or does.

None of these choices have caused serious repercussions on them.
Freeze was also defeated, and Vegeta has not revealed a direct threat.
You'd be right, if Freeze would win, and if Vegeta would return raged on Earth committing a massacre.
Then, if for that, they would have known already from the tournament and the battle against Piccolo, when Goku refusal their help, when he let hit only for sportsmanship and when, at the end, It gave him a senzu, instead of seal.

Krillin certainly thinks of him as a potential threat when he whispers to Bulma about using the Androids as a way to potentially have him bond with the others or else who knows what he'll do. And to say none of this caused any repercussions isn't the same thing as it not doing anything at all. These guys were blown up, beaten, tortured and experienced all sorts of things that would leave a mark on a person. Regardless if everything works out in the end, they shouldn't be so damn casual about going in for another round of this shit but at the very, VERY least stop to think for more than five minutes before saying "Meh, lets fight!".

Nevermind that these guys shouldn't simply be so casual about any of this. They all died horrible, painful deaths because they waited for Goku or suffered terrible injuries repeatedly while he got there

They are dead, waiting for him, is but this is due to a series of events totally beyond its control, which it does not hold responsibility. They are not dead for its own distinct decision, or for a request. They died because the sayan came before him.

These events aren't Goku's fault, which isn't even my point. My point is that, regardless if Goku ultimately (and barely) wins, everyone either suffered or died painfully by simply abiding by the "Let's just let Goku handle it" logic. As I said above, unless the characters are so genre savvy now that neither they, nor we the audience, should give a damn anymore (which isn't true or else Piccolo wouldn't have given a flying fuck about Goku sending Gohan to his probable death) you cannot simply tell me these guys would have all of this stuff happen to them and still trust Goku in blind faith to win in the end. Especially since everything was such a damn close call.

Yet, according to the facts, they have always acted thus. They have always trusted him.
In the saga of sayan they died precisely because he was not there, just like in the future of Trunks.

And I'm saying this is completely forced, you can't have your characters be genre savvy enough to know not to give a damn then later on expect US to give a damn when something happens to them or how they react to anything. Either write them like people who've gone through all these ordeals and are changed by them or fuck off.

However at that time he was permanently with them there, is this, it should be enough to reassure them.

No, Freeze was an emperor with infinite resources, an army of mercenaries, a fleet of spaceships, a bad temper and the innate ability to live in space.
Androids do not have any of this, and in fact, even after years, they threatened nothing, except that the Earth
In addition, I repeat, that King Kai, if he vluto, would have saved Goku one of the most dangerous battle of his life

Your ability to miss my point about the Androids continues to frustrate me even if I've had the time of my life debating on all this other stuff lol. King Kai doesn't have to warn them about Freeza or do the call for them because Freeza isn't on Namek nor does he even think he knows about it. It isn't until a few days before the Earth crew even gets there that Freeza attacks and it's far too late for him to just tell the Namekian's to gather the Dragon Balls. As far as King Kai and everyone else know, the Earth crew is perfectly safe going on their own on this one.

King Kai knows nothing about the Androids except that they're very powerful and mysterious, the only way for him and the others to find out definitive proof of what the Androids are truly capable of, he'd need to ask someone like Porunga who has access to lots of knowledge. Even if Porunga says the Androids are incapable of ever leaving the Earth, King Kai would still let the others use a wish to get revived either at that moment or down the line after training in the afterlife. Or hell, maybe even just ask Porunga to drop the Android turn off remote in Gohan's lap and have the kid win that way.

[Gorou]

One that doesn't come from arrogance or him putting fighting ahead of reason. A costly mistake yes but unlike a few others, this isn't an example of Goku simply letting his Saiyan nature do the talking for him.

My point is not to exaggerate his arrogance, but highlight just how many times he has made some wrong decisions.

My point still stands, Goku wouldn't have refused fusion if he didn't have a good idea he could still win on his own. He lets his Saiyan nature get the better of him but he got a clear idea of where Kid Boo stands and where he stands at SSJ3. The only thing he didn't account for is his living body not being able to take 3. Now, if Kid Boo was at Super Boo's level and Goku STILL crushed the potara, then he'd be letting Saiyan logic completely rule over him.

Look, the controversy over who of the two Majin Buu is actually the strongest, is one of the oldest and debated threads of the franchising . The last thing I want is get into that question.
I only say that there is a heavy inconsistency in the saga: the beginning Super (evil) Buu is clearly more strong than SSJ3 Goku (It can be intuited by many assertions), but towards the final confrontation, everything suggests the opposed (because Toriyama changed his mind at the last, about the role of Gohan and Goku) In the anime, e in Dragon Ball Kai, Kid Buu souls is described as the strongest Majin Buu. If Kid Boo it were much weaker choosing not to fight Gohan would be one of the stupidest moves of DB.
For me, both theories are valid.

However, he was wrong, however, and has underestimated the threat. Save Gohan would have been much wiser

Do not take medicine, ahead of the clash with the androids, was a mistake, justifiable in many ways, it is true, but always a mistake ..
None of this is a defect, I want to repeat it, because he's usually making these decisions.

Krillin certainly thinks of him as a potential threat when he whispers to Bulma about using the Androids as a way to potentially have him bond with the others or else who knows what he'll do. And to say none of this caused any repercussions isn't the same thing as it not doing anything at all. These guys were blown up, beaten, tortured and experienced all sorts of things that would leave a mark on a person. Regardless if everything works out in the end, they shouldn't be so damn casual about going in for another round of this shit but at the very, VERY least stop to think for more than five minutes before saying "Meh, lets fight!"

But, at least, according to this should avoid fighting them on the front line, and left the field to Goku. Ten is the only one who learns the lesson ( after leaves ever Jaozi at home). But in fact, your reasoning is not applicable because, in Dragon Ball Z (especially Z), maturation of this type do not exist (the only is Vegeta, in the end) Get Goku, It has remained the same from start to the end, and it never learned from his mistakes.He insists on saving his enemies in the new series (see RoF). Kid Goku was the exact opposite, if you remember. He kills the enemy without hesitation.

Then, I repeat, this reasoning would have had to do even before the saga, after all the terrible events of the King Piccolo saga, and not only after Freeze. I know it is a defect this lack of psychological development, but it is a defect of Dragon Ball in general. Indeed, even Vegeta seems to be returning to be like before (in part). For me it is absurd That refuses to cooperate with Goku after the events of Boo.

Nevermind that these guys shouldn't simply be so casual about any of this. They all died horrible, painful deaths because they waited for Goku or suffered terrible injuries repeatedly while he got there

Yes, but he has no direct responsibility in this. If this immense suffering was caused by some bad guy that Goku has decided to save, like Piccolo, which he refused to imprison, you'd be right.

These events aren't Goku's fault, which isn't even my point. My point is that, regardless if Goku ultimately (and barely) wins, everyone either suffered or died painfully by simply abiding by the "Let's just let Goku handle it" logic. As I said above, unless the characters are so genre savvy now that neither they, nor we the audience, should give a damn anymore (which isn't true or else Piccolo wouldn't have given a flying fuck about Goku sending Gohan to his probable death) you cannot simply tell me these guys would have all of this stuff happen to them and still trust Goku in blind faith to win in the end. Especially since everything was such a damn close call.

It is just the opposite. They died because, for own initiative, they took to the field to fight against the Saiyan, instead to stop them with the dragon balls (how they could stop Gero could also stop the sayan). At no time have they thought of leaving the task to Goku. If then had not done, would never die. So, it was their fault. They took to the field, first of all, because they are warriors, who face risks in every battle.
The case of Piccolo is extreme: he was watching one of his closest friend suffer.

And I'm saying this is completely forced, you can't have your characters be genre savvy enough to know not to give a damn then later on expect US to give a damn when something happens to them or how they react to anything. Either write them like people who've gone through all these ordeals and are changed by them or fuck off.

Is not forced, it is consistent with the way they act, because they never had a real reason not to rely on the warrior that has defeated all of the threats that have been profiled.
They have suffered, but they are, at base, always fighters.
Otherwise who they train to do?

Your ability to miss my point about the Androids continues to frustrate me even if I've had the time of my life debating on all this other stuff lol. King Kai doesn't have to warn them about Freeza or do the call for them because Freeza isn't on Namek nor does he even think he knows about it. It isn't until a few days before the Earth crew even gets there that Freeza attacks and it's far too late for him to just tell the Namekian's to gather the Dragon Balls. As far as King Kai and everyone else know, the Earth crew is perfectly safe going on their own on this one.

Your ability to miss my point is even higher. I never talked about "advise them about the presence of Freeze on Namek".
King Kai knows that Goku must resurrect his friends, and he already knows he has need to going on Namek to do it. It's him to track down the planet, and give them the precise coordinates.
Now, King Kai can contact at any time the Kami Guru? Yes.
Because, knowing that the they does not have a technology to travel on Namek, he has not contacted the Kami Guru and informing him of the situation? He could convince him to collect the Dragon balls, to resurrect all those killed by Nappa (their need is pure, I do not think he would refuse). He could have done at that precise moment, end not limited to give them the coordinates.

This was the best direct aid that could ever doing, and would have avoided the whole trip.

He also has no need to ask questions to Polunga, because, due to its ability to monitor any mind, him enough to look

[ekrolo2]

My point is not to exaggerate his arrogance, but highlight just how many times he has made some wrong decisions.

He's made lots of wrong decisions, however,to sum up your first couple of replies into one, Goku making a decision because of stupid Saiyan logic like letting Freeza power up to his max or the whole Gero debate isn't the same as him making a wrong decision using some actual thoughts with justified or understandable reasons. Case-in-point, him fighting Freeza, not bringing the medicine or fighting Kid Boo. Even at his worst, Goku has still shown to advise decisive action when he knows that's the only way like when he urges Gohan to kill Cell.

Then, I repeat, this reasoning would have had to do even before the saga, after all the terrible events of the King Piccolo saga, and not only after Freeze. I know it is a defect this lack of psychological development, but it is a defect of Dragon Ball in general. Indeed, even Vegeta seems to be returning to be like before (in part). For me it is absurd That refuses to cooperate with Goku after the events of Boo.

I know Dragon Ball doesn't and there were certainly some bad things to happen to them but the way the Saiyan & Freeza sagas play out, them STILL holding fast to their ways becomes a really hard pill for me to swallow. This is purely a subjective thing of course now but I just can't buy them still abiding by blindly trusting Goku and not being affected or changed at all by their experiences. Besides the obligatory "turning a villain into a good guy" development for Piccolo.

It is just the opposite. They died because, for own initiative, they took to the field to fight against the Saiyan, instead to stop them with the dragon balls (how they could stop Gero could also stop the sayan). At no time have they thought of leaving the task to Goku. If then had not done, would never die. So, it was their fault. They took to the field, first of all, because they are warriors, who face risks in every battle.
The case of Piccolo is extreme: he was watching one of his closest friend suffer.

I'm not saying they should blame Goku, but after getting beaten to death multiple times or blown up or stabbed or witnessing a planet-wide genocide of an entire species, your character shouldn't still be so stuck in their ways. The events of the Saiyan & Freeza sagas are FAR too extreme in terms of what physically and emotionally happens for these guys to not at all get affected by them. It may be consistent with their characterization, but if Piccolo can, after hanging out with Gohan realize he's not a bad person, then why can't say Tien realize that a strict way of the warrior isn't all its cracked up to be after he and Chiaotzu basically commit suicide to try and kill Nappa?

Toriyama has shown, once again with Gohan during the Cell Games, that he has the capacity to have a character look back at what's happened and say "This was fucked up right here son." so him just devoting a couple of chapters to why everyone's is so fixated on specifically doing things this way, regardless of what's happened recently would work quite well. You can have the humans do it because they're worried about becoming useless in comparison to the aliens after spending their whole lives devoted to fighting. You can setup Piccolo kind of getting tired of fighting but feeling like he needs to do it anyway because what else can he do with himself?

That's the big sticking point for me of the Android Saga and Resurrection F, lots of good potential story and character ideas that are ALMOST there if Toriyama just spent 5 extra minutes tweaking or expanding them to make em work.

Your ability to miss my point is even higher. I never talked about "advise them about the presence of Freeze on Namek".
King Kai knows that Goku must resurrect his friends, and he already knows he has need to going on Namek to do it. It's him to track down the planet, and give them the precise coordinates.
Now, King Kai can contact at any time the Kami Guru? Yes.
Because, knowing that the they does not have a technology to travel on Namek, he has not contacted the Kami Guru and informing him of the situation? He could convince him to collect the Dragon balls, to resurrect all those killed by Nappa (their need is pure, I do not think he would refuse). He could have done at that precise moment, end not limited to give them the coordinates.

This was the best direct aid that could ever doing, and would have avoided the whole trip.

He also has no need to ask questions to Polunga, because, due to its ability to monitor any mind, him enough to look

They actually have plenty of technology to pull it off, they've got Nappa's pod down where he and Vegeta first landed on Earth and, since Kami's around, he probably figures his space ship but be around somewhere as well. King Kai also knows there isn't any immediate threat to the Earth or to planet Namek so he doesn't need to immediately call up Guru. No one even suspects Freeza was spying in on what Vegeta & Nappa and Vegeta's so beaten the hell out of, he's basically a non-issue for at least a good long while. There is no doomsday clock ticking off to everyone's deaths here so there's no reason for King Kai to call up Guru as if everyone's going to die any second that he doesn't.

His ability to read minds doesn't stretch out to technology. So unless 17 and 18 have complete knowledge of how they tick, he's not going to get much out of them on that end. And if he did, I still don't buy King Kai letting them all stay dead and not taking 5 minutes out of his time to dial up Moori. Hell, the Namekian Balls might even be pointless since Uranai Baba can allow a dead fighter to come back to life for a day which Goku or Piccolo can use to at least, after a while of training, use to come back to Earth and kill 17 & 18.

[Gorou]

He's made lots of wrong decisions, however,to sum up your first couple of replies into one, Goku making a decision because of stupid Saiyan logic like letting Freeza power up to his max or the whole Gero debate isn't the same as him making a wrong decision using some actual thoughts with justified or understandable reasons. Case-in-point, him fighting Freeza, not bringing the medicine or fighting Kid Boo. Even at his worst, Goku has still shown to advise decisive action when he knows that's the only way like when he urges Gohan to kill Cell.

My point was reveal his mistakes, and that they are due to its "Sayan logic", or to more rational decisions, but by the twisted logic, is not necessarily relevant.
The centerpiece of this speech was to decree how Goku could eliminate Imperfect Cell, right? Well there are many ways to work to eliminate this threat without undue risk, which you have listed.But, precisely because, as we have ascertained, Goku is usually complicate things with intricate reasonings and absurd plans, who tells us that he will adopt the tactics by you suggested, although these are definitely the more logical?

For example, Goku not kill Fat Buu, leaving the boys a chance. The decision has its own logic behind (which is why I think that does not go rincriminata much) but it turned out to be a pure idiocy, because he ended up killing everyone and destroying the Earth.

Same thing for Gero, although this was due to his desire to fight strong people.

I know Dragon Ball doesn't and there were certainly some bad things to happen to them but the way the Saiyan & Freeza sagas play out, them STILL holding fast to their ways becomes a really hard pill for me to swallow. This is purely a subjective thing of course now but I just can't buy them still abiding by blindly trusting Goku and not being affected or changed at all by their experiences. Besides the obligatory "turning a villain into a good guy" development for Piccolo.

Subjectively, there are countless things that I would change, but this is not one of them.I would not change because: 1) managing these paradoxes is not easy; 2) at the end, besides Goku, the group included Piccolo, Vegeta, Ten, all warriors, not real heroes paladins of the earth. It is also not the first time that they do not eliminate a future threat in the bud (here at least, they do it by choice)

I would changed all the clash between Gohan and Cell, which I consider to be the weakest point to the saga: a cell with unlimited resources ends acting in the same idiotic way of Vegeta and Freeze. The interesting thing about Cell was his way of acting totally different from the previous villains; Him not aim at the usual "conquest", but only to personal entertainment (very human desire). In this respect, angering Gohan in order to test the maximum power of his perfect body had its own logic, but everything is lost when we see despair because the boy has surpassed him.

I would have liked very much even an explanation of Gero's hatred for Goku.
Knowing that, his son, from whom he obtained the android 16, died in the RR, i wish it had been Goku to kill him.

I'm not saying they should blame Goku, but after getting beaten to death multiple times or blown up or stabbed or witnessing a planet-wide genocide of an entire species, your character shouldn't still be so stuck in their ways. The events of the Saiyan & Freeza sagas are FAR too extreme in terms of what physically and emotionally happens for these guys to not at all get affected by them. It may be consistent with their characterization, but if Piccolo can, after hanging out with Gohan realize he's not a bad person, then why can't say Tien realize that a strict way of the warrior isn't all its cracked up to be after he and Chiaotzu basically commit suicide to try and kill Nappa?

But they, the events of King Piccolo saga were not so much soft.
Krilin dies, Roshi dies, Jiaozi is killed under the eyes of Ten, and this one, was defeated and taken hostage by the the demon. That battle was not a joke , yet no one has had second thoughts when it came to addressing the sayans.
On Namek, then, none of them witness the genocide of 100 namekians in live, except Krilin and Gohan. And here we can see the great empathy of the half-sayan, who prefers come out end be discovered, instead to see Dende die, while Krilin was more worried about his coverage. However, once again I do not see a real reason, for them, to not trust to Goku.

Toriyama has shown, once again with Gohan during the Cell Games, that he has the capacity to have a character look back at what's happened and say "This was fucked up right here son."

A very beautiful scene, but it was gone two minutes, not three years, and the responsibility for that was all his. Then as I said, Gohan is the youngest, the less mature and more empathetic character in the group. The others are tend to be much more cynical. Krillin, on Namek, not once has regretted his decision not to kill Vegeta, despite the danger posed by him. In the Cell Games, she not once has regretted his decision to not destroying 18 (he attacked Cell one time, but only because it was furious at losing her). Same thing for Vegeta. One defect of Toriyama, among the many quality, are the character excessive static, whose the only possible maturation is pass from evil to good. Then, there are exceptions: see Mirai Trunks end Kid Trunks.

Then, I agree with you on the lack of introspection psychology of the characters, but it is a recurrent defect. Dragon Ball has always been a product that makes its simplicity its very strength. Is a battle shonen that starts as ironic manga. Only in the anime, these moments are emphasized.

That's the big sticking point for me of the Android Saga and Resurrection F, lots of good potential story and character ideas that are ALMOST there if Toriyama just spent 5 extra minutes tweaking or expanding them to make em work.

The second is recycled idea, previously rejected by his editor, ad now repurposed in a bland form.The worst thing, in my opinion, is the characterization of some characters.

They actually have plenty of technology to pull it off, they've got Nappa's pod down where he and Vegeta first landed on Earth and, since Kami's around, he probably figures his space ship but be around somewhere as well. King Kai also knows there isn't any immediate threat to the Earth or to planet Namek so he doesn't need to immediately call up Guru. No one even suspects Freeza was spying in on what Vegeta & Nappa and Vegeta's so beaten the hell out of, he's basically a non-issue for at least a good long while. There is no doomsday clock ticking off to everyone's deaths here so there's no reason for King Kai to call up Guru as if everyone's going to die any second that he doesn't.

Yet, there were still some good reasons to investigate. He tracked down the planet, and found that it was inhabited, but the presence of a set of Dragon Balls was still uncertain. He would have to ask, and to notice first if, on the planet, there for the Dragon Balls, because, all hope of terrestrials , was based on a weak supposition of Vegeta. Better to be sure of the thing, rather than organize a difficult and long journey.

His ability to read minds doesn't stretch out to technology. So unless 17 and 18 have complete knowledge of how they tick, he's not going to get much out of them on that end. And if he did, I still don't buy King Kai letting them all stay dead and not taking 5 minutes out of his time to dial up Moori. Hell, the Namekian Balls might even be pointless since Uranai Baba can allow a dead fighter to come back to life for a day which Goku or Piccolo can use to at least, after a while of training, use to come back to Earth and kill 17 & 18.

From what I understand they are only partially modified humans, not complete machines . In fact, in the Boo, both hear the voice of Vegeta and Goku, when the Kais transmit it to Earth. We do not see Baba live in that timeline, so may have been killed. A further possibility is that Goku may have decided to leave everything in the hands of Gohan. It is not forced, as in the Boo saga did the same, while having the ability to kill the pink demon.

[ekrolo2]

My point was reveal his mistakes, and that they are due to its "Sayan logic", or to more rational decisions, but by the twisted logic, is not necessarily relevant.
The centerpiece of this speech was to decree how Goku could eliminate Imperfect Cell, right? Well there are many ways to work to eliminate this threat without undue risk, which you have listed.But, precisely because, as we have ascertained, Goku is usually complicate things with intricate reasonings and absurd plans, who tells us that he will adopt the tactics by you suggested, although these are definitely the more logical?
For example, Goku does not kill Fat Buu, leaving the boys a chance. The decision has its own logic behind (which is why I think that does not go rincriminata much) but it turned out to be a pure idiocy, because he ended up killing everyone and destroying the Earth.
Same thing for Gero, although this was due to his desire to fight strong people.

Goku's adherence to Saiyan logic is indeed an issue, for him, but when presented with an enemy he factually knows he cannot beat, he never becomes suicidal to even try. He can sense Semi-Perfect Cell's power and teleports there but not to fight, rather to save Tien and Piccolo. Same thing with Super Boo.
And if he ever bites off more than he can chew, there can usually be a somewhat justifiable reason for it.
The true stupidity in Goku not taking out Fat Boo isn't that he's trusting the boys necessarily but rather it's the excuse people try to use to cover for him. Remember how Krillin basically shows Goku EVERYTHING he needs to know through some telepathic mumbo jumbo? Well, why can't Goku simply show Piccolo and the boys the moves for the dance and then give his all to beat Fat Boo?
Him trusting Gotenks too win isn't too inconcievable since Goku's pretty objective about powers (outside of BoG) and given what he senses of the boys and the increase of the dance, he probably figured power wise they'd do fine. Its just that he failed to take into account for variables like Boo powering up massively or the boys personalities fucking it all up.

Subjectively, there are countless things that I would change, but this is not one of them.I would not change because: 1) managing these paradoxes is not easy; 2) at the end, besides Goku, the group included Piccolo, Vegeta, Ten, all warriors, not real heroes paladins of the earth. It is also not the first time that they do not eliminate a future threat in the bud (here at least, they do it by choice)
I would changed all the clash between Gohan and Cell, which I consider to be the weakest point to the saga: a cell with unlimited resources ends acting in the same idiotic way of Vegeta and Freeze. The interesting thing about Cell was his way of acting totally different from the previous villains; Him not aim at the usual "conquest", but only to personal entertainment (very human desire). In this respect, angering Gohan in order to test the maximum power of his perfect body had its own logic, but everything is lost when we see despair because the boy has surpassed him.

I would have liked very much even an explanation of Gero's hatred for Goku.
Knowing that, his son, from whom he obtained the android 16, died in the RR, i wish it had been Goku to kill him.

I think handling these paradoxes would be fairly simple if you had the characters bring them up, at least to themselves and then find a somewhat understandable reason for why do it anyway. You can have Yamcha do it because he's becoming increasingly depressed about how much of a failure he feels like and needs to save the world to compensate. You can have Tien's pride over being outclassed so much and so fast drive him to choose fighting over an easy way out because he cannot accept that all the training his done makes him less then nothing next to the aliens.

But they, the events of King Piccolo saga were not so much soft.
Krilin dies, Roshi dies, Jiaozi is killed under the eyes of Ten, and this one, was defeated and taken hostage by the the demon. It was a joke that battle, yet no one has had second thoughts when it came to addressing the sayans.
On Namek, then, none of them witness the genocide of 100 namekians in live, except Krilin and Gohan. And here we can see the great empathy of the half-sayan, who prefers come out end be discovered, instead to see Dende die, while Krilin was more worried about his coverage. However, once again I do not see a real reason, for them, to not trust to Goku.

The events of that saga did have some nasty stuff happen, however, if you've seen Dragon Ball Disection, there's a very clear way the characters view the fight against Nappa & Vegeta before and after a certain moment: when Yamcha dies.
Before that, the Earth fighters are treating the whole thing like a quasi-tournament, smiling and fighting one on one. But when Yamcha dies, all of this flies off the window, because they realize this isn't a game or a tournament anymore. Their opponents can and will kill them without mercy and the heroes, in-response, abandon all this code of the warrior bullshit and do whatever it takes to beat Nappa & Vegeta. This pragmatism remains throughout the rest of the series until the Freeza fight has everyone randomly adopt more bullshit code of the warrior crap.

Then, I agree with you on the lack of introspection psychology of the characters, but it is a recurrent defect. Dragon Ball has always been a product that makes its simplicity its strength. Is a battle shonen that starts as ironic manga. Only in the anime, these moments are emphasized.

This is a little easier for me to swallow in the Boo Saga since there's a sense that Toriyama's not taking everything so seriously but the Android Saga doesn't. It and the previous two arcs are almost completely straight faced but the previous arcs work better because this is the first time the characters are dealing with stuff of this scale of horribleness.
If you're going to keep writing something more like it with a complete straight face, you can't just have the characters pretend like nothing that's happened has affected them at all. Sure a lot of these guys might not see things the same way as us ordinary people do, but they're still thinking feeling beings who shouldn't be so ready to throw themselves into something. Even the hardest, most badass mofos get worn down eventually.

Yet, there were still some good reasons to investigate. He tracked down the planet, and found that it was inhabited, but the presence of a set of Dragon Balls was still uncertain. He would have to ask, and to notice first if, on the planet, there for the Dragon Balls, because, all hope of terrestrials , was based on a weak supposition of Vegeta. Better to be sure of the thing, rather than organize a difficult and long journey.

He actually says the Namekian's are thriving on the planet without any danger. I will admit him taking a clooser look would've been better but it's not a deal breaker at least for me.

From what I understand they are only partially modified humans, not complete machines . In fact, in the Boo, both hear the voice of Vegeta and Goku, when the Kais transmit it to Earth. We do not see Baba live in that timeline, so may have been killed. A further possibility is that Goku may have decided to leave everything in the hands of Gohan. It is not forced, as in the Boo saga did the same, while having the ability to kill the pink demon.

The difference is that in the future timeline, assuming there is no ROSAT, Gohan is screwed. Its not like with Gotenks where he knows where the boys stand, where the enemy stands and what it takes to win and with Piccolo there, he can throw them inside the ROSAT for a year just for extra insurance if Goku's estimate doesn't work out.
In this, Gohan is alone. He doesn't have anyone to train with or any method to get stronger faster and none of them know how strong 17 and 18 are. For all they know, the two of them could be thousands of times stronger than Freeza, making it impossible for Gohan to ever stand a chance.

[Gorou]

Goku's adherence to Saiyan logic is indeed an issue, for him, but when presented with an enemy he factually knows he cannot beat, he never becomes suicidal to even try. He can sense Semi-Perfect Cell's power and teleports there but not to fight, rather to save Tien and Piccolo. Same thing with Super Boo.

True, but it is said to happen even with Cell. It has made known his power, that he should not be much larger than that of a SSJ, alone in front of Piccolo, and not before.
Super Boo and Semi-Perfect Cel,l knew perfectly well that they were too faar from its level.

Remember how Krillin basically shows Goku EVERYTHING he needs to know through some telepathic mumbo jumbo? Well, why can't Goku simply show Piccolo and the boys the moves for the dance and then give his all to beat Fat Boo?

Yes, he could. Honestly, I never thought
On the other hand, that power, the first time I saw him, he left me a little crowded out, because I never understood on what occasion he has learned.

However, it must be said that the incident was due to the change of direction on the protagonist (Goku- Gohan) that occurred at the end of the saga. At the beginning, I am convinced that Toriyama had thought to make SSJ3 equal to Fat Buu, and never higher.

Him trusting Gotenks too win isn't too inconcievable since Goku's pretty objective about powers (outside of BoG) and given what he senses of the boys and the increase of the dance, he probably figured power wise they'd do fine. Its just that he failed to take into account for variables like Boo powering up massively or the boys personalities fucking it all up.

This is the point, did not take account of the variables, and his plan failed. Exactly what I alluded to earlier.
The same could occur with an oppnent equally filled to resources (Cell by a hair did not kill Piccolo (fused with Kami) with a simple diversion).

I think handling these paradoxes would be fairly simple if you had the characters bring them up, at least to themselves and then find a somewhat understandable reason for why do it anyway. You can have Yamcha do it because he's becoming increasingly depressed about how much of a failure he feels like and needs to save the world to compensate. You can have Tien's pride over being outclassed so much and so fast drive him to choose fighting over an easy way out because he cannot accept that all the training his done makes him less then nothing next to the aliens.

I understand, but the application of such reasons does not seem necessary to me. The psychology of these characters there is entirely unknown, then, is impossible predict their actions. We only know how they are characterized, at the base, but this is not enough to give credibility to your assumptions. Asimple threat of Vegeta (eager to fight) could be enough to put an end to all their possible plan.

Before that, the Earth fighters are treating the whole thing like a quasi-tournament, smiling and fighting one on one. But when Yamcha dies, all of this flies off the window, because they realize this isn't a game or a tournament anymore.

True, bat they would have expected from the beginning.
They knew what they were facing: two monsters stronger than the fighter who a year before had defeated the two strongest warriors of the Earth and killed their best friend, being part of a race of space conquerors who exterminate the population of entire planets... But, actually, they should realize this after the battle against King Piccolo (the net change of the manga happens then , in the saga where a character dies for the first time).

Then, even them, they could do better. Krillin unleashes his ultimate weapon to end, instead of immediately

This is a little easier for me to swallow in the Boo Saga since there's a sense that Toriyama's not taking everything so seriously but the Android Saga doesn't. It and the previous two arcs are almost completely straight faced but the previous arcs work better because this is the first time the characters are dealing with stuff of this scale of horribleness.

I repeat that, in truth, they should have full already awareness the saga of King Piccolo, where they lost very dear friends (many in front of their eyes). In theory, they should have already helping Goku against Piccolo in the tournament instead of watching. The "seriud" arcs, verily, outclass those ironic in number.

If you're going to keep writing something more like it with a complete straight face, you can't just have the characters pretend like nothing that's happened has affected them at all. Sure a lot of these guys might not see things the same way as us ordinary people do, but they're still thinking feeling beings who shouldn't be so ready to throw themselves into something. Even the hardest, most badass mofos get worn down eventually.

Indeed it does, but only with the main characters.
Goku, for the first time (and it will do more) asks Ghan to kill the enemy.
We speak to the same that helped Freeze, a being who did suffer him much more than Cell ever made .

In addition, a new character, Mirai Trunks, who, following his experiences, it behaves like a true hero: kills the enemies as quickly as possible, try to stop the enemies before they are activated, while attacks Cell is turning (what ever made by anyone). The only flaw is the lack of experience

In this, Gohan is alone. He doesn't have anyone to train with or any method to get stronger faster and none of them know how strong 17 and 18 are. For all they know, the two of them could be thousands of times stronger than Freeza, making it impossible for Gohan to ever stand a chance.

In truth, Gohan had Trunks as a partner and possible successor, and fought pend androids several times, without being killed.
Considering what little we know, there are too many variations in the way of deliniare proper line guide. Do not even know if Goku could see what was happening on Earth (it is said that it was from King Kai).

In addition, a possible destruction of ROSAT, would have compromised and rendered futile any further rebirth.

[ekrolo2]

True, but it is said to happen even with Cell. It has made known his power, that he should not be much larger than that of a SSJ alone in front of Piccolo and not before.
Super Boo and Semi-Perfect Cel,l knew perfectly well that they were too faar from its level.

Yes, but a suppressed Cell couldn't keep his power hidden from Goku who knew he couldn't beat him. I imagine that, if say Vegeta sensed what was happening and got there first, getting Cell into a fight I think Goku would pick on it having more strength hidden away and bolt away.

This is the point, did not take account of the variables, and his plan failed. Exactly what I alluded to earlier.
The same could occur with an oppnent equally filled to resources (Cell by a hair did not kill Piccolo (fused with Kami) with a simple diversion).

Yes but it didn't fail because Goku let Saiyan logic completely overturn him: he didn't know all the facts. Unlike with Gohan, who he pretty blatantly and clearly doesn't know at all despite living with him for years still sent him to fight Cell. However, Goku doesn't know Trunks and Goten and from what little we see, him urging them to avenge Gohan & Vegeta seems to initially get them to take the matter seriously. He also didn't know that Boo could transform and become exponentially more powerful.

Now in a hypothetical scenario where Goku, somehow, knew all this and still did the same thing, I'd tell him to fuck off. But he doesn't. He's making a call with the resources available to him and unlike the Gero thing, he cannot simply call up Shenron to give him a run down of Boo's whole moveset.

I understand, but the application of such reasons does not seem necessary to me. The psychology of these characters there is entirely unknown, then, it is impossible to predict their actions. We only know how they are characterized, at the base, but this is not enough to give credibility to your assumptions. Asimple threat of Vegeta (eager to fight) could be enough to put an end to all their possible plan.

I feel it is because, to me anyway, it's too hard to buy that these guys would be so at ease about going for another round of fighting. But as you said, character insight and character development (that isn't villain becomes hero) is non-existent, I just have a harder time buying it in the Android arc after everything that's happened.

True, bat they would have expected from the beginning.
They knew what they were facing: two monsters stronger than the fighter who a year before had defeated the two strongest of the Earth and killed their best friend, being part of a race of space conquerors who exterminate the population of entire planets... But, actually, they should realize this after the battle against King Piccolo (the net change of the manga happens then , in the saga where a character dies for the first time).

Then, even them, they could do better. Krillin unleashes his ultimate weapon to end, instead of immediately

This is a good point, although this also makes the Android Saga look even worse now lol because they're just blatantly ignoring everything that's happened and not being affected by it at all.

Indeed it does, but only with the main characters.
Goku, for the first time (and it will do more) asks Ghan to kill the enemy.
We speak to the same that helped Freeze, a being who did suffer him much more than Cell ever made .

In addition, a new character, Mirai Trunks, who, following his experiences, it behaves like a true hero: kills the enemies as quickly as possible, try to stop the enemies before they are activated, while attacks Cell is turning (what ever made by anyone). The only flaw is the lack of experience

The story, however, is treating Trunks like a total dumbass for acting like this though. Vegeta being annoyed by Trunks urging everyone to throw Goku a senzu bean when Cell asks for it is fine, he's lost his marbles. But why isn't Piccolo telling him to do it? Or Gohan? Or Krillin? These guys all firmly told the code of the warrior to piss off when the situation got bad enough so why aren't they doing the same now?

In truth, Gohan had Trunks as a partner and possible successor, and fought pend androids several times, without being killed.
Considering what little we know, there are too many variations in the way of deliniare proper line guide. Do not even know if Goku could see what was happening on Earth (it is said that it was from King Kai).

In addition, a possible destruction of ROSAT, would have compromised and rendered futile any further rebirth.

[/quote]

Trunks won't be ready for effective training for a good few years though, years that can easily be spent at peace with revived warriors. I also don't think that the ROSAT not existing would immediately make any rebirth pointless. Remember, Piccolo is there and he made exceptional strength gains by training with Goku.

If Piccolo stayed dead for a whole year, just training his ass off as hard as possible with the warriors of Otherworld then got revived by Porunga at which point he could fuse with Kami for an even higher boost of power, I imagine he'd at the very least be on par with his present-day self in the main timeline. Though, I imagine he'd be stronger since with a dead body he'd literally be able to fight for months and months on end without needing to take a break.

With Porunga's aid, Dende could also get teleported to Earth so the Earth Dragon Balls could be restored back to their proper state. The only wildcard here is Vegeta but honestly I don't imagine him getting to keep his body. He'd either get reincarnated as a new being or simply stay in Hell until revived.

[Gorou]

Yes, but a suppressed Cell couldn't keep his power hidden from Goku who knew he couldn't beat him. I imagine that, if say Vegeta sensed what was happening and got there first, getting Cell into a fight I think Goku would pick on it having more strength hidden away and bolt away.

Goku has never been able to feel the strength of Cell. He has knowledge of the situation only because, as he slept, he heard all the discussions on the subject.
Vegeta I doubt you would fall in place indicated by Kami, without knowing anything, just to save the lives of some terrestrial. Even so, the only one to be able to move instantly, is Goku.

Yes but it didn't fail because Goku let Saiyan logic completely overturn him: he didn't know all the facts. Unlike with Gohan, who he pretty blatantly and clearly doesn't know at all despite living with him for years still sent him to fight Cell. However, Goku doesn't know Trunks and Goten and from what little we see, him urging them to avenge Gohan & Vegeta seems to initially get them to take the matter seriously. He also didn't know that Boo could transform and become exponentially more powerful.

My point is another.
He took a ponderate decision, but, in fact, is also ignored the most easy way. Kill Majin Buu, having the possibility, was undoubtedly the logical choice to do at the time.
He has prefer to risk, and it has failed. Whatever logic there may be behind his decision, it pales, before the sure option to eliminate a threat that he helped create (fighting against Vegeta without using its maximum power limiting)

This is where the point connectet to Cell: should address an absolutely mysterious creature, of which he knows nothing.
As with Majin Buu, it could deliberately complicate matters by choosing a less logical approach: dealing with it in a group or alone, without studying the powers (as it did with 19 and 20).

I feel it is because, to me anyway, it's too hard to buy that these guys would be so at ease about going for another round of fighting. But as you said, character insight and character development (that isn't villain becomes hero) is non-existent, I just have a harder time buying it in the Android arc after everything that's happened.

This is subjective. Not necessarily a battle shonen must highlight the psychology of the character at each saga. Some do, some do not. Not that manfga must necessarily be parodic, to gloss over these things.
Rimage very static characters in many stories. If Goku remains the same from beginning to end, and be pleasing to many, why not do it well Krilin? O Tien?

This is a good point, although this also makes the Android Saga look even worse now lol because they're just blatantly ignoring everything that's happened and not being affected by it at all.

Static characters, remain static, regardless of the number of arcs. Non-existent maturation of a typically static character, is not a defect. At the limit, is a shortage (two different things)
Are the steps backwards, to be serious defects. When the maturation of a character, or when the interactions between two characters are cleared, then you can talk about real defect.
The transposition of Vegeta, in RoF, is deleterious, because his character, at times, emulated his old version of the Cell saga.

The story, however, is treating Trunks like a total dumbass for acting like this though. Vegeta being annoyed by Trunks urging everyone to throw Goku a senzu bean when Cell asks for it is fine, he's lost his marbles. But why isn't Piccolo telling him to do it? Or Gohan? Or Krillin? These guys all firmly told the code of the warrior to piss off when the situation got bad enough so why aren't they doing the same now?

I do not see a humiliation of Trunks. It acts more intelligently than 90% of the characters.
He killed Freezr within seconds, while Goku took us minutes. He has also lost with Cell, but his intervention has saved Vegeta. In that scene, no one listened because they knew already, knowing that give senzu Goku would be useless, because I would have refused.

If Piccolo stayed dead for a whole year, just training his ass off as hard as possible with the warriors of Otherworld then got revived by Porunga at which point he could fuse with Kami for an even higher boost of power, I imagine he'd at the very least be on par with his present-day self in the main timeline. Though, I imagine he'd be stronger since with a dead body he'd literally be able to fight for months and months on end without needing to take a break.

With Porunga's aid, Dende could also get teleported to Earth so the Earth Dragon Balls could be restored back to their proper state. The only wildcard here is Vegeta but honestly I don't imagine him getting to keep his body. He'd either get reincarnated as a new being or simply stay in Hell until revived.

Considering all variables, because they are so many.
If Baba died (possibility) can not go one day among the living.
Fusion with Kami is a good move, but it is useless if not reborn. And maybe the same Piccolo has accepted his status.
Or, as I suggested, that King kai, not feeling the need to interfere with the living, has never warned namekians. Are forced actions, no doubt, but still possible

Vegeta did not do any good until Majin Buu. I exclude that preferential treatment is granted

[ekrolo2]

Goku has never been able to feel the strength of Cell. He has knowledge of the situation only because, as he slept, he heard all the discussions on the subject.
Vegeta I doubt you would fall in place indicated by Kami, without knowing anything, just to save the lives of some terrestrial. Even so, the only one to be able to move instantly, is Goku.

That's not even remotely true. Goku meets with Cell after exiting the Room of Spirit and Time and despite Cell being suppressed or relaxed, Goku can still see the depths of his power and properly deduce that he cannot defeat him. Also, Vegeta would listen to Kami if he told him something very powerful, very evil is attacking the Earth. The only reason Vegeta does anything against the villains of the arc is to test himself in preparation for his battle against Goku.

My point is another.
He took a ponderate decision, but, in fact, is also ignored the most easy way. Kill Majin Buu, having the possibility, was undoubtedly the logical choice to do at the time. He has prefer to risk, and it has failed.

This is where the point connectet to Cell: should address an absolutely mysterious creature, of which he knows nothing.
As with Majin Buu, it could deliberately complicate matters by choosing a less logical approach: dealing with it in a group or alone, without studying the powers (as it did with 19 and 20).

I agree, Goku should've simply transferred the knowledge of the dance over to someone and done his best to defeat Majin Boo. However, his reason for trusting Gotenks feels warranted given the information he knows at the time. It's the variables like their personalities and Boo randomly becoming stronger that were never accounted for.

This is subjective. Not necessarily a battle shonen must highlight the psychology of the character at each saga. Some do, some do not. Not that manfga must necessarily be parodic, to gloss over these things.
Rimage very static characters in many stories. If Goku remains the same from beginning to end, and be pleasing to many, why not do it well Krilin? O Tien?

Except it's not pleasing to me, not at all. Goku's behavior has gotten unbearable to the point where I've finally realized why Chi-Chi treats him like she does: she knows precisely what he's like. She knows he's a selfish prick and treats him accordingly. No one else does and the way the fandom blatantly defends him is just terrible.

If Resurrection F wasn't an entirely worthless waste of time and life for everyone involved, it should have had a scene where Gohan spits his father out for letting his stupid Saiyan logic go easy on FREEZA which costs Gohan his wife and new born child. Either bring a franchise back and do something new with the characters or retire the cast and move onto other people. Because this circle jerk of "Goku's always a selfish prick, Vegeta's always bitter, Gohan never learns to keep training" is beyond unbearable to me and the Android Saga is where a lot of this starts.

Static characters, remain static, regardless of the number of arcs. Failure maturation of a typically static character, is not a defect. At the limit, is a shortage (two different things)
Are the steps backwards, to be serious defects. When the maturation of a character, or when the interactions between two characters are cleared, then you can talk about real defect.
The transposition of Vegeta, in RoF, is deleterious, because his character, at times, emulated his old version of the Cell saga.

I stated above why I dislike this whole static character thing, plus it's nonsensical to me. Why can the only character arc in the series be a villain becomes a good guy? Why? Why must it stop there? Why can't new avenues be explored with these people?

I do not see a humiliation of Trunks. It acts more intelligently than 90% of the characters.
He killed Freezr within seconds, while Goku took us minutes. He has also lost with Cell, but his intervention has saved Vegeta. In that scene, no one listened because they knew already, knowing that give senzu Goku would be useless, because I would have refused.

Future Trunks IS the smartest guy out of the whole cast, the problem is that the scene in-question has everyone accepting this stupid code of the warrior shit the previous arcs should've beaten out of them enitrely. If everyone already knows its useless, then why are they outraged by Goku quitting?

Considering all variables, because they are so many.
If Baba died (possibility) can not go one day among the living.
Fusion with Kami is a good move, but it is useless if not reborn. And maybe the same Piccolo has accepted his status.
Or, as I suggested, that King kai, not feeling the need to interfere with the living, has never warned namekians. Are forced actions, no doubt, but still possible

[/quote][/quote]

Piccolo wouldn't accept the planet being left at the mercy of 17 and 18 and he sure as fuck wouldn't do it knowing Gohan is the only one left. Hell, I'd say Piccolo would do whatever it takes to force King Kai (which wouldn't be necessary because King Kai literally has fucking nothing better to do with the five minutes he'd lose) to contact Moori and have him back to life. If King Kai helped them with Cell, he'd help them know, especially since he's befriended a lot of these people wouldn't want to see them needlessly remain dead.

[Gorou]

That's not even remotely true. Goku meets with Cell after exiting the Room of Spirit and Time and despite Cell being suppressed or relaxed, Goku can still see the depths of his power and properly deduce that he cannot defeat him. Also, Vegeta would listen to Kami if he told him something very powerful, very evil is attacking the Earth. The only reason Vegeta does anything against the villains of the arc is to test himself in preparation for his battle against Goku.

"You think can beat Cell?"

"I do not know, maybe not"!

It was so insecure, which is specially stopped by Karim to ask him to do a comparison. Cell will be relaxed, but certainly gives off a certain amount of Ki, perfectly perceived by all. When imperfect Cell reset her ki, it was imperceptible. The only way to discover his power was face him.
Kami was just a feeling, it was not void of concrete. Indeed, it is overestimating the power of Cell, calling it superior to the cyborgs.
Vegeta do not think they would ever have been summoned by Kami, who has never seen

I agree, Goku should've simply transferred the knowledge of the dance over to someone and done his best to defeat Majin Boo. However, his reason for trusting Gotenks feels warranted given the information he knows at the time. It's the variables like their personalities and Boo randomly becoming stronger that were never accounted for.

Here, this is where I see a parallel with imp.Cell: a dangerous enemy, as Majin Boo, of which he knows nothing, as boo.
Considering the above, it does not necessarily take the most logical decision to confront him without risks. Then, the focus of the current discussion is that, regardless of Gero and that unfortunate decision to not kill him, in the Earth would have been a danger.

Agree with you, every action, apparently stupid, must be contextualized.

Except it's not pleasing to me, not at all. Goku's behavior has gotten unbearable to the point where I've finally realized why Chi-Chi treats him like she does: she knows precisely what he's like. She knows he's a selfish prick and treats him accordingly. No one else does and the way the fandom blatantly defends him is just terrible.

Nothing to say. I am in 100% agreement.
However, we must admit that this is our personal vision. Some people love Goku just because of his desire to fight.

Because this circle jerk of "Goku's always a selfish prick, Vegeta's always bitter, Gohan never learns to keep training" is beyond unbearable to me and the Android Saga is where a lot of this starts.

Vegeta bitter attitude, start in the android saga, yes.

Goku be a selfish prick, starts from the saga of Piccolo/Majunior
From then on, constantly, start saving all villains, in the vague hope of having a potential rival, for the future.
It stops only in the android saga, with Cell.

Gohan who never trains begins with Boo.

I stated above why I dislike this whole static character thing, plus it's nonsensical to me. Why can the only character arc in the series be a villain becomes a good guy? Why? Why must it stop there? Why can't new avenues be explored with these people?

Because Toriyama is not interessed in deepening the psychology of his characters. It is an improviser, a bit forgetful, but with great creativity, which tends to follow a cyclical line for his manga (search Dragon Ball - new enemy to beat - Tournament).
But, I repeat, it is a recurring defect.

Future Trunks IS the smartest guy out of the whole cast, the problem is that the scene in-question has everyone accepting this stupid code of the warrior shit the previous arcs should've beaten out of them enitrely. If everyone already knows its useless, then why are they outraged by Goku quitting?

Because he has never done before.
As usual, it is a problem of Goku, because we know that he would NEVER accept the senzu.

Their options were:
- Attack Cell together to save Goku (being destroyed)
- Groped to give him senzu (who would refuse to 100%)

Obviously, no one knew the power of Gohan, or that Cell was holding back some of its power.

Piccolo wouldn't accept the planet being left at the mercy of 17 and 18 and he sure as fuck wouldn't do it knowing Gohan is the only one left. Hell, I'd say Piccolo would do whatever it takes to force King Kai (which wouldn't be necessary because King Kai literally has fucking nothing better to do with the five minutes he'd lose) to contact Moori and have him back to life. If King Kai helped them with Cell, he'd help them know, especially since he's befriended a lot of these people wouldn't want to see them needlessly remain dead.

But Cell was a much more serious threat (for the reasons I have already explained). Then, after all, I do not think for a king kai things would be very different.
Without doubt, thing like that would be totally out of character, for Piccolo, but you can not rule out the possibility.

But, the only ultimately explanation, is that Freeze has destroyed Namek before arriving on Earth, for revenge. The absence to the fact it the official timeline could be explained by a time alteration caused by the arrival of Cell, which amended that event

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I'm fine with Beerus' relevance to the God lore, but I do think its terrible writing for Toriyama to just insert him in to explain everything just because he's awesome rather tan there be any actual connection to why. The one thing I don't like about Beerus is the fact that it seems as if he can do anything he wants with no consequence and people accept it just because they fear him, yet he has no real reason to do anything but out of an arbitrary dislike for something. Its weak and it undermines the events started by other characters with actual context. Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta out of a strategic hunch, is always more justified than - because Beerus was lazy and didn't get a pillow he wanted. He just has this sue-presence that ruins his potential relevance. Him trapping Elder Kai in the sword because he lost an argument doesn't even make any sense. How does he have the power to do that? Why? Did Whis do that? Just out of something petty? C'mon.

[Ringworm128]

I like him putting Old Kai in the Z-Sword since it turns that little part of the series into an epic foreshadowing and him blowing up King Kai's planet since it fits with the character and doesn't really contradict anything. Everything else though is stupid IMO, especially his connections to Freeza and Vegeta (even if it does provean old theory I used to have. Beerus should be some ancient force that nobody knew about giving him a sense of mystery and making him feel less shoehorned in.

[Onibaku]

I'm fine with Beerus being behind all those things you listed, except him telling Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

This doesn't make sense in itself at first, cause if the Saiyans annoyed Bills so much, then he wouldn't have to tell Frieza and go destroy it himself. Knowing Beerus who wishes to see destruction, I think this would be very legit. It ruins a lot of things in Bardock: father of Goku too. All that tension Bardock went through was due to Frieza shitting his pants in front of Beerus rather than the established plot Toriayama made for it.

[ROCKYIII]

Well, as you can tell by my username and avatar, I love Beerus, and one of the reasons I love the character so much is because how much he contributes to the universe and making it feel larger than it is. I don't mind most of his contribution or feats like wrecking King Kai's planet, wiping out the dinosaurs, making King Vegeta his bitch and sealing Old Kai in the sword, because in the grand scheme of thing, they are ultimately minor events.

However, the one event that really didn't sit well with me that was Beerus telling Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. I've already gone into detail about why I hate that revelation in another thread:

Honestly, I hate it. Yeah, I understand they want to include Beerus in as much lore as possible to make his stance in the universe more significant, but there is line that needs to be drawn. The revelation that Beerus told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta just kills any sort of irony or drama the Freeza arc had, and it undermines all of the antagonism that Freeza had towards the Saiyans and Bardock, Goku and Vegeta had to Freeza. And that by default make their stories with Freeza much less meaningful. I much prefer the vague implications that Beerus perhaps had some influence in the destruction of Planet Vegeta, than Super just outright stating that Beerus did tell Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. But even then, just the mere implication that Beerus may have involved in the destruction of Planet Vegeta just doesn't sit well with me. And the fact that Freeza got his ass kicked by Beerus before he supposedly told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta and the fact that his father warned him never to challenge him, just makes it even worse.

But other than that, I'm completely fine and content with Beerus' contributions to the lore of Dragon Ball. Besides, there have been much worse cases of characters being shoehorned into stories or lore of Dragon Ball.

It actually makes the universe small though. It's like darth Vader built c3po and was friends with r2d2 etc etc. it's a giant universe and it'd be more interesting and organic if these things were not all done by the same guy.

One of the most emotional moments in Z was vegeta crying and his death against Frieza pleading with goku to defeat him but still trying to hold onto his pride... There were a lot of kinda complex situations going on and the conflict and narrative energy was focused solely on frieza.

That moment was made comic relief in ROF when beerus says "shhh don't tell them that!" about him ordering Frieza to destroy the planet. It's just so out of touch and dumbs the series down.