Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And you're ignoring the implications that put Nappa below 5,000.There is literally 3 official sources that put him at that level.And you still ignore them because you think your assumptions are facts.I'm not saying you're wrong,but you're ignoring official sources by using things that was not flat out stated proven in the manga.

Outside of the Daizenshuu and Nappa thinking the 5k level is a mistake, what in the story establishes him to be weaker?

Nothing wrong with people adhering to the Battle Power from the guidebooks, but they're certainly not infallible. A certain list has Kami weaker than Piccolo Daimao and Mr. Popo, and we all know the story establishes the exact opposite of this.

That's the point.The power that Goku put in his attack against Recoome is no ordinary.And no,nothing in the manga was shown that Goku throw a massive unordinary blow at Nappa.Except in the last attack where he got hitted in his back.

Probably because Goku lacked the power to do it without the Kaio-Ken.

Did you even see the fight ? Goku was getting his ass kicked 90% of the time.If we go by your logic,a single kick from Freeza would obliterate Goku since he is 20x stronger than him.I'm not talking about the damage that was dealt,i'm talking about the power gap that you make it looks like just because Y is trading blows with X that means that Y is not much weaker than X.Goku was able trade blows with Raditz for a bit despite being about 4x weaker than him,does that mean that Goku is not much weaker than Raditz now ? Vegeta tanked a Kamehameha from Kaiokenx4 Goku who is about twice as strong as him,does that mean that Vegeta is not much weaker than Goku now.Even so,Durability =/= Power Level.

Freeza said he was pulling his punches because he didn't want to finish Goku off right away. Raditz actually crushed Goku easily. Not the best examples.

Without the Kaio-Ken, Goku is most likely not putting Nappa down.

Furthermore, Goku said he would've been in trouble had he not stopped Nappa's mouth blast. We saw the same Goku think Nappa's earlier powered-up blast was so pathetic that all he had to do was use his kiai to vaporize it. Either Nappa's mouth blast was amplified beyond his normal power or Nappa was already close enough to Goku's level where he could potentially damage him.

[The Monkey King]

I also don't believe Nappa's PL was 4000, I have it at 6000 as a calm Nappa could have a somewhat even H2H fight with Goku.

Spoiler:

Not to mention Goku's comment

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”

This clearly is not a fight where once fighter is twice as strong as the other.

Also I really don't understand why so people are so defensive of the Daizenshuu PLs when by reading the manga you would not think such a thing for a second.
For example the Daizenshuu states that Piccolo's PL is 3500 while Nappa's is 4000. This clearly makes no sense, according to the Daizenshuu Nappa and Piccolo should be able to have a really close fight yet Nappa is clearly in a whole other league and stomps him into the ground:

Spoiler:

Just look at Piccolo's quotes:

Chapter: 216 (DBZ 22), P12.2, P13.2-6
Context: after Kuririn’s ki blast doesn’t faze Nappa or Vegeta
Kuririn: “I…I did that at full-power!!! So this is what Saiyans are!!”
Tenshinhan: “The ground!!! The ground’s shaking!!!”
Chaozu: “Ten!!! My powers don’t work!!!”
Piccolo: “I never thought it would be so much!!!”

Chapter: 217 (DBZ 23), P7.6
Context: after Nappa beats up on Tenshinhan
Piccolo: “Wh-what power…!”

Chapter: 217 (DBZ 23), P10.2
Context: talking about Nappa’s blast and the hole it creates
Piccolo: “I ca…can’t see the hole’s bottom…What a tremendous energy wave…!”

Chapter: Chapter 218(DBZ 24), P14.3
Context: after Nappa isn’t injured by Tenshinhan’s Kikoho
Piccolo: “He-he’s a damn monster…”

Chapter: Chapter 219(DBZ 25), P1.2
Context: still after Nappa isn’t hurt by the Kikoho
Piccolo: “It…it can’t be…Is h-he immortal…!?”

These two fighters are clearly not in the same league of power. The Daizenshuu's PLs given for Piccolo and Nappa are blatantly inaccurate. I don't care if it's "official". Manga > Daizenshuu.

[LowRyder2005]

I'll never understand this "battle power = ki and nothing else" stuff.

Battle power is just an indicator of who will win in a fight based on a number of factors which are never properly explained to the reader: while it is true that by manipulating ki you can cloud your supposed battle power reading, we have multiple instances - both in the anime and the manga - of people removing weighted clothing and increasing their battle power simply because of increased mobility. Therefore, factual speed is in fact evaluated too and taken into account somehow (at the same time, you can use ki to increase your speed and strenght anyway).

4000, 7000 or 8000 are supposed to be - in theory - all-encompassing numbers. Saying that it is related "only to ki" is plain wrong.

[Hitiro]

I'll never understand this "battle power = ki and nothing else" stuff.

Battle power is just an indicator of who will win in a fight based on a number of factors which are never properly explained to the reader: while it is true that by manipulating ki you can cloud your supposed battle power reading, we have multiple instances - both in the anime and the manga - of people removing weighted clothing and increasing their battle power simply because of increased mobility. Therefore, factual speed is in fact evaluated too and taken into account somehow.

4000, 7000 or 8000 are supposed to be - in theory - all-encompassing numbers. Saying that is related "only to ki" is plain wrong.

Ki is an amalgamation of various stats in and of itself. It is your life force, frame of mind, health and physical stuff. But Battle Power really is the same. Otherwise why would Goku's Battle Power increase at the same rate as his Ki? Kaioken was said to multiply your Ki and that amplification is in direct reflection to his battle power too. So if his Ki doubles then his battle power also doubles.

[buutenks]

Once nappa cools down and fights with his head vs goku,goku states that this will take forever.Then we have nappa charging in at the z fighters and goku is unable to get to him without kaioken.Plus considering goku was not playing around and wanted to end the fight quickly but couldnt was proly because nappa was close to his PL so he couldnt one shot him,aka like he did when he used kaioken.

I put nappa at 7,700 and goku at 8,500.Then his kaioken being 12,750.

[LowRyder2005]

I'll never understand this "battle power = ki and nothing else" stuff.

Battle power is just an indicator of who will win in a fight based on a number of factors which are never properly explained to the reader: while it is true that by manipulating ki you can cloud your supposed battle power reading, we have multiple instances - both in the anime and the manga - of people removing weighted clothing and increasing their battle power simply because of increased mobility. Therefore, factual speed is in fact evaluated too and taken into account somehow.

4000, 7000 or 8000 are supposed to be - in theory - all-encompassing numbers. Saying that is related "only to ki" is plain wrong.

Ki is an amalgamation of various stats in and of itself. It is your life force, frame of mind, health and physical stuff. But Battle Power really is the same. Otherwise why would Goku's Battle Power increase at the same rate as his Ki? Kaioken was said to multiply your Ki and that amplification is in direct reflection to his battle power too. So if his Ki doubles then his battle power also doubles.

I'm not arguing against the notion that ki can alter the other parameters, that much is evident: I'm arguing against the supposed notion that "only ki" is evaluated in a reading.
I was strictly referring to the fact that, multiple times, we see people staying at the "same level of ki", who by just removing their weighted clothing have their battle powers shoot up. Their ki output obviously stays the same, alas they would power-up or throw a kiai.

Therefore, saying "battle power = ki" is correct, saying that "battle power = only ki", like it has been one page ago, is a direct contradiction to what the manga/anime is showing.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not arguing against the notion that ki can alter the other parameters, that much is evident: I'm arguing against the supposed notion that "only ki" is evaluated in a reading.
I was strictly referring to the fact that, multiple times, we see people staying at the "same level of ki", who just remove their weighted clothing and their battle power shoots up (while their ki output stays the same, alas they do not power-up or throw a kiai).

Therefore, saying "battle power = ki" is correct, saying that "battle power = only ki", like it has been one page ago, is a direct contradiction to what the manga/anime is showing.

We've also seen that certain things like injuries or illness' can effect ki because the body is being damaged and the various things that make up ki are being damaged along with it. Weighted clothing only really plays a factor in the Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz fight and that can easily be explained away by Ki not being able to properly course through their bodies due to them being hampered with extra weight, making it impossible for them to fight at maximum capacity.

Ki determines battle power, all other factors that in other series would create a difference such as durability, speed, punch strength, kick strength are irrelevant. Its a terrible system but that's how things work in DB.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm not arguing against the notion that ki can alter the other parameters, that much is evident: I'm arguing against the supposed notion that "only ki" is evaluated in a reading.
I was strictly referring to the fact that, multiple times, we see people staying at the "same level of ki", who just remove their weighted clothing and their battle power shoots up (while their ki output stays the same, alas they do not power-up or throw a kiai).

Therefore, saying "battle power = ki" is correct, saying that "battle power = only ki", like it has been one page ago, is a direct contradiction to what the manga/anime is showing.

We've also seen that certain things like injuries or illness' can effect ki because the body is being damaged and the various things that make up ki are being damaged along with it. Weighted clothing only really plays a factor in the Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz fight and that can easily be explained away by Ki not being able to properly course through their bodies due to them being hampered with extra weight, making it impossible for them to fight at maximum capacity.

Ki determines battle power, all other factors that in other series would create a difference such as durability, speed, punch strength, kick strength are irrelevant. Its a terrible system but that's how things work in DB.

Of course, Gohan reportedly lost half of his ki by losing an arm.
So, yeah, it is possible, but it doesn't technically disprove my theory: it could simply be that in Gohan's case the injury played a part and in the healthy Goku's and Piccolo's case it was more simply the weight, like it was basically suggested to the reader throughout that whole sequence.

Unless we have a statement that directly says that "only ki and nothing else is measured" (and I honestly I don't remember anything like that, funny wording aside), I'd say there is enough room to doubt the "power readings are only influenced by ki" claim. I do remember, in my country's dub, that during the Vegeta vs. someone on Namek - either Dodoria or Cui - Vegeta mentioned that a power level reading was made of "strenght and speed" among other things. I don't really trust my dub, so I'd like to find the original scene.

[Kaboom]

What the heck else is a scouter supposed to be reading other than the raw amount of ki energy someone's radiating? How can a machine measure someone's "speed" or "durability" or whatever else goes into overall fighting ability? Time and time again we're shown and told that ki in Dragon Ball is the energy that fuels a fighter's superhuman abilities, and someone's raw amount of ki (or "battle power") is what a scouter reads and turns into numbers.

We don't know exactly why or how they do it, but it's pretty clear that the heavy weights somehow affect one's sheer power output, and that in turn affects their speed. Putting on weights -> lower power -> lower speed. Maybe it's somewhat disproportionate, and their speed is actually affected more than their sheer battle power.

But however it works, it's certainly not vice-versa, where the loss of speed itself causes the lower battle power reading. Otherwise what, would Trunks' power level reading actually drop when he uses SS Grade 3 because he gets slower? Or just remain stagnant because he's exchanging speed for power? Then there's Butta — He was said to have roughly the same ki or power level as Jheese and Recoome, but was significantly faster than them.

P.S. - For the record, an accurate translation straight from Herms of what Vegeta said to Kwi is “when my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.” A higher battle power, a.k.a. amount of ki, typically causes higher speed. Higher speed is not a part of what's read as battle power.


All that collective phooey aside... one of Dragon Ball's longest enduring messages has been that battles and fighters "can't be reduced to numbers." Even beyond Dragon Ball, it's just plain common flippin' sense that you can't accurately predict the course or outcome of a battle in a fantasy/action story just by measuring each fighter's raw strength. It's disheartening how this basic, obvious principle has been overlooked for most of this thread and in general as of late. Kanzenshuu is supposed to be a safe haven from this type of bullshit "gaps determine everything" mentality. Yet this "Nappa can't be 4,000 because number comparisons trump all else" nonsense is a tragic trademark symptom of how it's even spread here. It's intensely disappointing.

Well it doesn't change anything. Nappa's battle power of 4,000 is and shall continue to be valid, no matter how much anyone misses the point and argues otherwise.

[Desassina]

Well it doesn't change anything. Nappa's battle power of 4,000 is and shall continue to be valid, no matter how much anyone misses the point and argues otherwise.

Well, at least I'm happy. It means that the Dragon Ball community has gone from the manga to the official and supplementary material. Perhaps now we should consider the filler as well, and do away with the canon arguments.

[LowRyder2005]

As far as the "how it can judge someone's speed" it is just guesswork, I doubt it was put much thought into it from a scientific point-of-view.

I'm just pointing out the strictly logical conclusion that “when my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too" could possibly be interpreted as a biunivocal correspondence.
In layman's terms, unless it is expressly said that "my speed can't raise my battle power", or that "my battle power is only related to my ki" I'll take "when my speed raises my battle power raises too" to be perfectly possible too... which is exactly what the Raditz battle heavily implies if not flat-out states throughout the panels showings.
Because, really, I'm reasonably convinced that if you asked his interpretation at the time Toriyama would just say "hey, they got faster because without those weights they got lighter, so their battle powers arose!" and not something like "the pression of those weights created problems with their ki output". But that is just my personal interpretation, obviously.

To wrap it up, we only know that speed, battle power and ki are related. As to exactly how pretty much nothing is explained. I'm just stating that objectively speaking the "scouters read only someone's ki" - while we do know that ki plays a big part in a reading - is, by all means, an argument and not a fact and should be treated as such.

[Kaboom]

It means that the Dragon Ball community has gone from the manga to the official and supplementary material.

No, because the entire flippin' point is that Nappa's battle power from the guidebook is not in conflict with "the manga," only with fans' own overly-restrictive theories and beliefs about power gaps which they think are on the same level. They're not.


I can make up a theory or belief based on the manga too. For example, I could theorize that Super Saiyan 3 is something that requires extraordinary and unnatural circumstances to attain, like Goku being dead and Gotenks being a Fusion. Is that a good theory based on a pattern in the manga? Of course it is. But does it hold any actual weight? If some new story written by Toriyama shows a normal, non-dead Saiyan attaining and using Super Saiyan 3, is it null and void because it contradicts my well-crafted manga-based theory?

Of freakin' course not. My fan-theory is nothing more than a fan-theory. Even if it's based on trends or evidence from the manga, it's not "the manga" itself. It does not hold any authority or affect anything outside of other things I make up. Which is the exact same thing going on here.

The entire concept of "gaps between power levels determine the course of a fight" is not a fact laid down by the manga, it is a glorified fan-theory simply based on the manga. It can not and does not invalidate anything else besides other fan-theories. When something official comes along that disagrees with it, the official thing "wins" by default.


Doesn't anyone get it? There is no discrepancy or contradiction here. You're only creating one by holding this almost meaningless number against strict standards that have never actually existed outside of fans' minds.

"The manga" doesn't care about power gaps.
Toriyama doesn't care about power gaps.
The guidebooks don't care about power gaps.

Only fans do. They treat them like some big, factual, critical thing, and they shouldn't. Which is WHY Nappa's 4,000 power level is valid, because fans are the only ones who think it isn't.

[buutenks]

In general higher ki=more strength,speed and durability and more potent ki blasts ofc.

There are some exceptions to that rule like ussj.But in general it all runs smooth,since the one wiht higher Pl was always faster stronger and mroe durable than the opponent.

The best examples are the early namek showing where the Pl were actually shown in the manga.

Vegeta vs zarbon vs kiwi vs dodoria.

HIs power level was higher than theirs so he was faster,stronger and more durable,when zarbon pumped up his Pl he was faster stronger and more durable and so forth.

[Ash57]

I follow what is in manga. And manga suggests, using all the fights in the series, that a fighter a can't beat someone 2x stronger than himself, this is, Fighter B, unless Fighter A has a special strategy or technique. There are no rules yadayadayADAYDYa, but there are what the manga left. And this is how i'll follow Nappa's, 7,000+ power forever, because there are no evidence of the otherwise.

[Desassina]

Kaboom, I think you've gone past the point where no one can read your Ki, and the "holier than thou" attitude is your Dragon Ball equivalent of becoming a God. It matters that we can see through the material, because the manga has been corrected by the anime through the Daizenshuu before, leading to a new release. These things go back and forth, so it's not surprising that the material is fickle, and that we're only playing the role of an unpaid editor.

[LightBing]

What irks me is the lack of compelling arguments, in-universe, from the 4000 defenders. Arguments not to counter the other's, but to justify their idea.
Because saying, "you can't prove me wrong" does nothing for a discussion.

The point is the Daizenshuu didn't write it's reasoning. We also know the author didn't make the number, to quote this website:

Spoiler:

Databook Staff Credits

It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. Toriyama makes it quite clear in most of his daizenshuu introductions that “they” (Shueisha) are responsible for putting these together, and he is often graciously humble in thanking them for all their hard work in sorting through his exhaustive series.

Which means some random employee came up with the number. In my book his opinion is as good as everyone here, it doesn't suffocate nobody's else.

The manga cares about power gaps, not mathematically and not accurately. It's ballpark stuff, those using half-power lines and similar stuff are proof of this. The scouter numbers are proof! It shows the author actually tried to put it into numbers. He gave up on the idea later, putting stuff into numbers is limiting but he's using the system in this situation.
The power gaps aren't mindless, there's some consistency. Conclusions can be taken.

But the Daizenshuu doesn't even matter here, we're discussing this from a in-universe perspective.

I'll never say 4000 is wrong and mine is right. I do ask for everyone to defend their ideas with arguments from the manga/anime, which is the source we can all interpret.
I did so in page 2 of this thread.

[Kaboom]

Kaboom, I think you've gone past the point where no one can read your Ki, and the "holier than thou" attitude is your Dragon Ball equivalent of becoming a God.

There's nothing "holier than thou" about it. It's simply common sense that battles in a fantasy-action story inherently cannot be reduced to a comparison of numbers. Common sense that apparently flies over the heads of far too many Dragon Ball fans. Those fans use that misconception to create problems like this "debate" about Nappa's power level that don't actually exist.

Problems also like this thread, and y'know what? It's gone too far, it's embarrassing, and it's over.

The entire "power level gaps determine the course of a fight" mentality is a glorified fan-theory. Fan-theories about numbers only affect or belong alongside fan-made numbers. Therefore, for the foreseeable future, any further debate or discussion about the validity of "controversial" official power levels like Nappa's will be limited to the Power Levels thread in the FanWorks section. As long as they do not overshadow the thread's primary purpose of sharing and friendly critique of fan-made figures.

We're done here.