Which Super Saiyan form did Gohan use against Dabra?

[Hitiro]

No, it would be an assumption to believe Goku wasn't at full power when there is no statement to express he wasn't, as has always been provided for the reader when there's intended to be suppression. And that suppression would even effect kiri readings. In the case of Cell, we are given indication that he is not at full power when fighting SSJ1 Gohan, so all that says is that Gohan could have a chance against a considerably suppressed Cell.

Dabura is basing his statement on a device that concretely measures Goku's power, not something he determined on his own.

I don't think this is an assumption when Goku already demonstrated he could fight Yakon without going SSJ. The only reason he did go SSJ was because while he could fight fairly well without it he was at the disadvantage of fighting in the dark. Sure he could use the subtle air flow to tell when his opponent attacks but that is probably more risky given Yakon was comparable to him in his base. Gohan even said that they should both fight him. As far as I'm concerned 2 Base Saiyan's are not equal to 1 full power SSJ, if you're going to say that Goku did need to go SSJ to fight. He obviously would not need much more than his full power in his base form to deal with Yakon.

And you are still missing what I am saying. Cell specifically states that he will go all out in speed. So if an unmotivated Gohan can hit Cell who is using his maximum speed then unmotivated Gohan's speed is clearly on par, or surpasses, Cell's maximum speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So while he is not using his full power he is still using his maximum speed. If he goes full power that isn't going to make a slight bit of difference if he can't hit Gohan, if he were motivated. It would be like how the fight against SSJG3 Trunks went.

And I'm saying that Dabura's confidence is purely because he believes that the device has measured Goku's full power. But he would not know if they are holding back because he doesn't have a ki sensing ability. So of course he is going to think he can still take them. Just like he doesn't know they can go SSJ2. Even the Kaioshin says that they Goku displayed the ability to bring forth tremendous power when in a pinch. So I don't think he was at 100% given this statement either.

[Ash57]

I'm going to contest your points, but I mean no disrespect in the matter.

Good. That's a prerequisite for a healthy debate. #respectalways.

I don't think it's ever said that Gohan was FAR weaker than he was at the Cell Game, at least relative to whichever level of transformation he was using.

Here Vegeta is saying that, and repeating the word "far" 2 times, which implies that there's a extreme distance between Teen Gohan and Kid Gohan:
Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”

And again, I think this cannot be said enough, Goku doesn't nail down which Cell he is referring to. I always figured he was talking about how much power Cell used in his fight against him. Held back.

Even though he in fact didn't, we can easily assume that he was talking about some form of Perfect Cell at C.G. It's obvious that he is not talking about the "Super" Perfect Cell, because that version of Cell is implied to be as strong as Gohan, or at least in the same league. We know that Gohan was far, far weaker than before so that should erase "Super" Perfect Cell from the list.

Even if we assume that he was talking about the version of Cell that he fought, it's hard to say that Super Saiyan Teen Gohan can handle that form of Cell, considering that C.G Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Goku to begin with, and he was "far, far" weaker. And you may excuse me, but i think that there is no way that Super Saiyan Teen Gohan would virtually tank a blast from Dabura(spoiler below)

Spoiler:

Here we see Dabura striking a blast against Gohan:

We can see above that Gohan only notices the blast in the last second, then it is a off guard(or at least "semi" off guard) attack.
Gohan is hit by the attack.
Here we see the outcome:

After the off-guard attack, Gohan emerges from the water one second later, to reveal that only his clothes were damaged by the attack, but he is completely intact. A situation that is identical to Tao Pai Pai vs. Kid Goku if you pay attention.

Even if you think that Teen Gohan = C.G Goku, i don't think that Goku would capable of tanking a blast from Cell. Even because Cell was clearly surpassing Goku in their fight.

Furthermore, Gohan was getting his ass whooped against Cell because he was refusing to fight. He put Cell on the ground when he kicked him back.

You have a point. But the Cell that Gohan fought was still not close to his full power form, we can guess what would happen if Cell went full power even if Gohan fought back, can't we? Cell would win quite easily.

There's a lot of room open for interpretation. Let's say Gohan was fighting at about the level Goku was against Cell, and that Dabra was fighting at a similar level of Cell against Goku, then this whole matter isn't very confusing, and it makes sense within the overall narrative and context of the story.

Everyone with their own opinion.

[Ash57]

and MORE evidence suggesting that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, this time artistic evidence! I forgot to include that in my response to Duo

This is SSj2 Gohan

This is Super Saiyan _ Gohan


The hair style is exactly the same, what's different is the aura

[Son_Gohan]

I don't think this is an assumption when Goku already demonstrated he could fight Yakon without going SSJ. The only reason he did go SSJ was because while he could fight fairly well without it he was at the disadvantage of fighting in the dark. Sure he could use the subtle air flow to tell when his opponent attacks but that is probably more risky given Yakon was comparable to him in his base. Gohan even said that they should both fight him. As far as I'm concerned 2 Base Saiyan's are not equal to 1 full power SSJ, if you're going to say that Goku did need to go SSJ to fight. He obviously would not need much more than his full power in his base form to deal with Yakon.

And you are still missing what I am saying. Cell specifically states that he will go all out in speed. So if an unmotivated Gohan can hit Cell who is using his maximum speed then unmotivated Gohan's speed is clearly on par, or surpasses, Cell's maximum speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So while he is not using his full power he is still using his maximum speed. If he goes full power that isn't going to make a slight bit of difference if he can't hit Gohan, if he were motivated. It would be like how the fight against SSJG3 Trunks went.

And I'm saying that Dabura's confidence is purely because he believes that the device has measured Goku's full power. But he would not know if they are holding back because he doesn't have a ki sensing ability. So of course he is going to think he can still take them. Just like he doesn't know they can go SSJ2. Even the Kaioshin says that they Goku displayed the ability to bring forth tremendous power when in a pinch. So I don't think he was at 100% given this statement either.

You're assuming that because you think Goku can defeat Yakon in base (he doesn't actually state that himself), that he must be in the mindset of limiting his power output because he does not "need" his full power in the state. But this is not based upon fact, its your subjective interpretation of the scene, and Goku even contradicts the notion by carelessly using SSJ2 power to ultimately defeat Yakon. If we go by historical evidence, when SSJ Goku fought in the Cell Games, his full power in the state was represented through having an aura; while in a suppressed state he lacked the trait entirely. Even through visual comparison of SSJ1 Goku's aura against Yakon--when he gets his energy measured and after blowing Yakon up--there's a clear contrast present, where his aura earlier is drawn with a higher intensity. So I find no grounds of evidence to suggest he was deliberately suppressing at all.

What Perfect Cell vs. SSJ1 Gohan showed us is that their powers at the time were comparable enough that their physical attacks could cause the other to bleed when they actually get hit. This is where the artwork comes into play to support Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabura, because he actually does get hit by Dabura's magic attack, off-guard and cleanly. Yet aside from some tattered clothing, Gohan comes out without a scratch to show for it. This is further reinforced in the narrative by Babidi stating Dabura is not causing considerable damage and by Goku stating that Gohan only necessitated a senzu bean afterwards because he used up too much stamina. Considering Perfect Cell was demonstrated to be a SSJ1 tier opponent prior to revealing his full power, any person at SSJ1 level and below should naturally be able to get hurt by his attacks. Not only was Gohan hit by a far more powerful attack than what Cell hit him with, he was in a weaker state than his Cell Games self. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a weakened SSJ1 Gohan to tank a shot from someone that was stated to be at Cell's level, it doesn't matter what stage of Perfect Cell you try to rationalize Dabura as. Only SSJ2 power would grant Gohan that durability.

There is nothing to suggest the kiri reading was taken to be inaccurate. Frankly, it's irrelevant because Ki suppression may not even effect the kiri reading. From a narrative standpoint, it is completely pointless to introduce a new system to gauge power for just one time, never to be brought up again... only for it to be wrong. The most obvious purpose its inclusion served was a literary device to hype Dabura's power. Without that there's really no need for it.

[Duo]

Good. That's a prerequisite for a healthy debate. #respectalways.

Time for me to dust off a bit! I haven't had a solid back-and-forth debate about Dragon Ball in quite some time.

“…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

This struck me at first, because I only remember the line as translated by Viz, in which Vegeta simply says Gohan was "better" back then. It looks like you cited Herms on this one, which unfortunately for me wins. Otherwise I was going to try to tear this one down. Research saved and screwed me all at once.

The initial issue I'm having is that it isn't specified how much stronger Gohan is than Goku during the Cell Game. And Gohan never fights with any effort during this exchange. We also do not know how much power Cell is using relative to his "full power" as displayed a bit later. Factoring in the Super Exciting Guide stating that Ssj2 is a twofold multiplier from Ssj, it seems to me like Gohan would need to do more than simply double his power to make such a show out of Cell, especially given the reactions to Cell's full power. Either he was still keeping quite a bit in, or he had some made rage boost on top of his transformation. Obviously, a lot of this is open to interpretation, but I'm simply advocating the case for Ssj Gohan against Dabra.

So, even if Gohan was "far, far" weaker as stated by Vegeta, that still leaves room for him to be fighting at a level like Goku was against Cell, and Dabra being "around" that power keeps their fight within the realm of making sense.

Super Saiyan Gohan (Cell Game) tanked some pretty heavy hits from Cell, so I don't agree that he wouldn't have been able to take the same from Dabra.

Also, your comparison to Taopaipai tickled me a bit. That's an excellent observation and gives me good reason to respect your knowledge of the series. Props!

Even if you think that Teen Gohan = C.G Goku, i don't think that Goku would capable of tanking a blast from Cell. Even because Cell was clearly surpassing Goku in their fight.

Open to interpretation, but you already made that clear: "Everyone with their own opinion." We probably won't change one another's minds, but I love having a reason to study the series a bit closer.

You have a point. But the Cell that Gohan fought was still not close to his full power form, we can guess what would happen if Cell went full power even if Gohan fought back, can't we? Cell would win quite easily.

Perhaps, but it isn't set in stone. Gohan going all out as a Super Saiyan at that point might have done decent. Though, when he releases his Ki, it doesn't cause the same level of panic or landscape destruction as Cell, so he is very likely weaker than Cell at full power. But again, with Super Saiyan 2 being a twofold increase, he can't really be leagues behind. And we're not even sure that he released all of his Ki when he powered up to fight Cell.

I don't feel that your point stands with the hair comparison, simply because every time we see Super Saiyan Gohan during the events of the Boo arc, his hair looks like that. The only exception is when he's training a month prior with Goten, but half-Saiyan hair grows.

Haha, I had a few more points I thought about bringing up, but my head started to hurt and they didn't stand as strong. I need to get back into practice...

My goal is to make a point that Gohan could have been fighting as a Super Saiyan and that it would still make sense. Pair that with the artwork, and I don't see the point in thinking something unique/odd was going on there when he fought Dabra. It needlessly complicates things otherwise, and I tend to advocate the simpler view whenever possible.

Now I'm a bit afraid of what I have coming my way.

[Hugo Boss]

I hope someday we will not be afraid to desrespect other fellow in these kinds of topic. Thank you, guys, for showing how a discussion should be.

I admit I totally overlooked that part where Vegeta said SS2 Gohan was "far, far" weaker than his last appearance. Makes me wish Gohan should never had used SS2 in Boo Arc. Or that Goku should never had compared Dabra to Cell.

[Duo]

I hope someday we will not be afraid to desrespect other fellow in these kinds of topic. Thank you, guys, for showing how a discussion should be.

I admit I totally overlooked that part where Vegeta said SS2 Gohan was "far, far" weaker than his last appearance. Makes me wish Gohan should never had used SS2 in Boo Arc. Or that Goku should never had compared Dabra to Cell.

I hear you on that. Most of this is just a symptom of how Toriyama was flying by the seat of his pants. Heck, the "Mightiest Majin" debate probably still gets kicked up now and again! What a mess that whole thing is.

[Ash57]

The initial issue I'm having is that it isn't specified how much stronger Gohan is than Goku during the Cell Game.

Reasonably stronger than Goku based in this statement:

Chapter: 403 (DBZ 209), P1.1-3
Context: Goku talking to Cell about Cell's next opponent (ie Gohan)
Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Cell was seemingly winning against Goku, but Goku thought that Gohan was capable of defeating even that. So, we have enough to deduce the basis: that Gohan is a good chunk stronger. We have enough material to work with from here:
Gohan > Goku

And Gohan never fights with any effort during this exchange.

He is capable of beating Cell all over the place until Cell goes all-out in speed. What's interesting is that Cell don't mention altering his power against Gohan, only his speed.

We also do not know how much power Cell is using relative to his "full power" as displayed a bit later

We can deduce that a lot more based in the fact that Cell did not expect taking so much damage from 2 punches
Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P14.5
Context: after Gohan attacks full power Cell
Cell: “Impossible…Why did I take so much damage from just 2 punches…?”
But you're right, we don't know how much, only that he was using a lot more.

Factoring in the Super Exciting Guide stating that Ssj2 is a twofold multiplier from Ssj, it seems to me like Gohan would need to do more than simply double his power to make such a show out of Cell, especially given the reactions to Cell's full power. Either he was still keeping quite a bit in, or he had some made rage boost on top of his transformation. Obviously, a lot of this is open to interpretation, but I'm simply advocating the case for Ssj Gohan against Dabra.

Gohan is capable of getting a rage boost of top of his SSj2, confirmed by the manga. But the twofold multiplier is too tight, really. I prefer a 4-fold one, but this is only me, i won't use my opinion to back up my pov.

So, even if Gohan was "far, far" weaker as stated by Vegeta, that still leaves room for him to be fighting at a level like Goku was against Cell, and Dabra being "around" that power keeps their fight within the realm of making sense.

But it's not like Gohan was twice as strong as Goku in the Cell Games. No, even Cell stated that Goku was a better challenge than Gohan was, which would not be case if Gohan was really so much stronger. No, what Goku really expected was that Gohan would get angry in the middle of the fight and perform a great power up(this is stated), big enough so Goku was almost sure that he could take out Cell. So, this implies that Super Saiyan Gohan(calm) is not that much stronger than Goku.

Super Saiyan Gohan (Cell Game) tanked some pretty heavy hits from Cell, so I don't agree that he wouldn't have been able to take the same from Dabra.

As Vegeta stated, the Gohan who fought Dabura was far, far weaker than the one who fought Cell. So, i don't see how he would be able to tank any hit from Dabura, even if Dabura is as strong as the Cell who fought Goku.

Oh, and there is this:
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Goku states above that Dabura was probably as strong as Cell.
But, later, he states this ->

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Dabura was way stronger than he thought. so, Dabura is stronger than the Cell who fought Goku. That proves that Dabura is at least as strong as Full Power Perfect Cell(who is implied to be "way" stronger than before), considering that Cell didn't increase his power against Gohan, only his speed. As i said before, Super Perfect Cell is out of the list.

Also, your comparison to Taopaipai tickled me a bit. That's an excellent observation and gives me good reason to respect your knowledge of the series. Props!

Thanks!

Open to interpretation, but you already made that clear: "Everyone with their own opinion." We probably won't change one another's minds, but I love having a reason to study the series a bit closer.

Me too!

Perhaps, but it isn't set in stone. Gohan going all out as a Super Saiyan at that point might have done decent. Though, when he releases his Ki, it doesn't cause the same level of panic or landscape destruction as Cell, so he is very likely weaker than Cell at full power. But again, with Super Saiyan 2 being a twofold increase, he can't really be leagues behind. And we're not even sure that he released all of his Ki when he powered up to fight Cell.

Well, landscape destruction is not that impressive if we take in account that 2nd Form Freeza, who was a little over 1,000,000, was capable of causing earthquakes and tsunamis with his initial power, even shaking a part of Planet Namek.
Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P12
Context: after reducing the surrounding land to sea in a big explosion
Freeza: “Hahhahhah…Well, as I’d expect, all of you are pretty quick at running away. This just now was merely my way of saying "hello". Even Saiyans can do a thing like this.”
He says: "Even Saiyans can do a thing like this" in the end. To be fair, even Nappa was able to cause an earthquake when powering up against the Z-Senshi. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was also able to shake the ENTIRE planet while accessing his full power against Goku.

don't feel that your point stands with the hair comparison, simply because every time we see Super Saiyan Gohan during the events of the Boo arc, his hair looks like that. The only exception is when he's training a month prior with Goten, but half-Saiyan hair grows.

No, Gohan had a much different hair when he faced these bandits in Satan City as a SSj. If you pay attention, SSj hair is lighter, SSj2 hair is heavier in Toriyama's concept arts.


But when we compare Budokai SSj2 Gohan and the Unknown SSj Gohan against Dabura, their hair are completely identical, no difference. The only thing that is missing here is the aura with lightning bolts - so i think that he was a SSj2.

My goal is to make a point that Gohan could have been fighting as a Super Saiyan and that it would still make sense. Pair that with the artwork, and I don't see the point in thinking something unique/odd was going on there when he fought Dabra. It needlessly complicates things otherwise, and I tend to advocate the simpler view whenever possible.

I think that you misunderstood my intentions. I just wanted to present evidences of why i thought that Gohan was not a SSj, and why SSj2 made much more sense with the story. I don't want to needlessly complicate things.

[Darkprince410]

and MORE evidence suggesting that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, this time artistic evidence! I forgot to include that in my response to Duo

This is SSj2 Gohan

This is Super Saiyan _ Gohan


The hair style is exactly the same, what's different is the aura

Except that Toriyama, by this point in the manga, was drawing Gohan with his hair in that style in his regular Super Saiya-jin form too.

Spoiler:

The hair styles were basically identical at this point in his Ssj and Ssj2 forms, so the aura ends up being the one deciding factor to determine which was which. Remember, this point in the Budoukai was specifically before Gohan had revealed his Ssj2 state, so the only form this could be for him is the regular Ssj form.

[Analytic]

I've seen some people argue that that is actually Super Saiyan 2, though I find that asinine. Gohan only mentions that he's going to go beyond the Super Saiyan after that point when against Kibito. There's no reason for such a big deal to be made about it if it was something Gohan just casually did not too long before. Not only that, but Vegeta didn't comment on Gohan's lack of power until Gohan transformed in front of Kibito.

[Akira]

Okay guys, let me lay this out for you. Gohan was not using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura. Here are some things you all need to consider in trying to figure these things out:

1) All the way back in early Z, Gohan was thrown at a mountain by Piccolo right after the Raditz fight, he obliterated it. He went nuts on Freeza and pummeled him, even though he wasn't quite powerful enough enraged to kill him outright. He feared doing this against Cell, and even warned him beforehand. Unfortunately, Cell's saiyan DNA demanded a strong opponent, so it only encouraged him to tick Gohan off and see for himself.

The thing we must remember is Goku prepared him [Gohan] for this exact eventuality. It was Goku's whole stupid secret plan for beating Cell. In the Time Chamber, Goku taught Gohan everything he knew at that point about martial arts and fighting technique until he [Gohan] unknowingly surpassed him [Goku]. His fighting technique and skills were honed to a razor's edge at this point in the series.

The fight ended the way it did, and Goku had to sacrifice himself to save the others. Partially due to Gohan getting out of control in his enraged state and wanting to toy with Cell rather than finish the job. He was just a kid after all, and despite being Cell's superior in strength and power at that point in the battle (due to Goku's training), he did not have the battle experience to know when he needed to go for the kill and not waste anymore time.

2) So yes, after losing his father, Gohan slacked. As someone else pointed out, it was a traumatic event for him. Fighting or training much probably reminded him of his father, and to a degree, his [Gohan's] failure that led to Goku's no other choice sacrifice. When Vegeta says that Gohan was better as a kid when he fought Cell, he means in terms of fighting skills. He was sloppy against Dabura, out of practice, rusty. His power had not grown due to lack of training. Here are the keys that led to Gohan's failure against Dabura:

-Goku was back for one 24 hour period, he assumed Gohan had continued to train and was excited to see how much better he'd be.

-Vegeta had trained nonstop, had surpassed Gohan, and was focused on gauging how much stronger Goku was. He handled Pui Pui in normal form with ease, Goku handled Yakkon with Super Saiyan 1, the two of them were toying with their opponents. When Gohan's turn came up, he didn't want to disappoint them by having to reveal max power to win his fight. He was out of practice and underestimated his opponent.

-Gohan was able to go show Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament to Kibito, yes, but it wasn't long after he'd anxiously healed Videl with the Senzu, and was still likely tense and primed somewhat. So it was easier for him to tap into his rage there. What happened after that? He was flying with Kibito and Videl. Videl who showed interest in him previously, but was standoffish and obstinate at times about her power and confronting Gohan. Now, she was calm and sweet, pieced together that it was Gohan who beat Cell and not her father, and told him to be careful and come back to her.

-Dude was tripping on cloud nine in love feelings, and didn't want to do anything to endanger people he cared about by losing it again. It wasn't until Goku was leaving to fight Vegeta, and told Gohan to not be afraid of his anger, to remember how to tap into his true power, and nothing could stop him. Goku realized Gohan was having trouble again harnessing it, and was once again giving him the encouragement that he needed.

Gohan was SS1 against Dabura, it makes sense given the context if you read between the lines at everything that was going on with his character and the situations he was in at that time. Thanks for reading, that's all I have on the matter.

[Hugo Boss]

-Gohan was able to go show Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament to Kibito, yes, but it wasn't long after he'd anxiously healed Videl with the Senzu, and was still likely tense and primed somewhat. So it was easier for him to tap into his rage there. What happened after that? He was flying with Kibito and Videl. Videl who showed interest in him previously, but was standoffish and obstinate at times about her power and confronting Gohan. Now, she was calm and sweet, pieced together that it was Gohan who beat Cell and not her father, and told him to be careful and come back to her.

-Dude was tripping on cloud nine in love feelings, and didn't want to do anything to endanger people he cared about by losing it again. It wasn't until Goku was leaving to fight Vegeta, and told Gohan to not be afraid of his anger, to remember how to tap into his true power, and nothing could stop him. Goku realized Gohan was having trouble again harnessing it, and was once again giving him the encouragement that he needed.

I almost thought you were the man himself. These were the parts I most liked. Good analisis. I would just add that Gohan was a teenager, and that could be factoring in his conflicted emotions.

[Kamiccolo9]

The biggest problem here is that Piccolo and Krillin were essentially dead if they didn't beat Dabura. I fully agree that he's a SSJ1 because, going by the art, it's completely obvious, but it seems to me like Toriyama just wasn't paying attention to his own story at this point.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Never really understood the whole "endangering" part. Gohan already realized his mistake of not finishing Cell like 2 mins after Goku teleported Cell away. He even says this when Cell returns. Seems kinda odd that Gohan would fallback into the same nonsense when his 9 yr old self realized how much of a mess he made playing around.

Gohan said he couldn't get mad like he was against Cell, but that level of anger wouldn't even be required to do what he did like an hr ago in the Budokai. It's just dumb like a lot of things in the Boo saga.

[dbgtFO]

[...]but it seems to me like Toriyama just wasn't paying attention to his own story at this point.

I for one think he was and he just wanted to make it even simpler, that Gohan was weaker than he was at the Cell Games, unlike Vegeta and Goku, who were in that ballpark of power.
So Gohan is SS, clearly demonstrating he's weaker than he was at the Cell Games(SS2) and Goku and Vegeta later on(also SS2).
Maybe having Gohan as a badass SS2 too was just deemed too complicated for Toriyama? The guy did say he usually had characters' strength established, but would change it as he kept drawing, so it could just be a case of him changing his mind about how strong Gohan was supposed to be:

Interviewer: Did you decide upon the balance of each characters’ strength beforehand?

Toriyama: I had decided it to a certain extent, but it would constantly change as I kept drawing.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... riyama-qa/

[apex_pretador]

Here are some quotes which heavily support the argument that he was only a regular super saiyan:

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”
___________________

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

[Nejishiki]

If it's any help to the discussion, I'd like to mention that the official color manga is consistent with Gohan's aura just as Toriyama had been. So exact that they even showcase him with a Super Saiyan 2 aura when he shoots a ki blast at Boo's pod and he immediately reverts back to a Super Saiyan 1 aura as he runs his dialogue of hoping he can maintain his anger.

[Tyro]

If it's any help to the discussion, I'd like to mention that the official color manga is consistent with Gohan's aura just as Toriyama had been.

The FC manga probably won't convince anyone who didn't already believe that Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan. While the colors are fantastic and (relatively) consistent, they weren't colored by Toriyama himself and sometimes differ from the colors he did use. And really, even if we lived in a world where Toriyama colored the Dragon Ball manga from start to finish, you'd have people saying he forgot to add the lightning. It would be the exact same argument.

So exact that they even showcase him with a Super Saiyan 2 aura when he shoots a ki blast at Boo's pod and he immediately reverts back to a Super Saiyan 1 aura as he runs his dialogue of hoping he can maintain his anger.

That wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 aura. This goes back to the relative consistency issue I mentioned above, but sometimes when auras are "rough" or "fierce" Shueisha would outline them in yellow. It was a nice visual effect.

Spoiler:

[Hitiro]

You're assuming that because you think Goku can defeat Yakon in base (he doesn't actually state that himself), that he must be in the mindset of limiting his power output because he does not "need" his full power in the state. But this is not based upon fact, its your subjective interpretation of the scene, and Goku even contradicts the notion by carelessly using SSJ2 power to ultimately defeat Yakon.

First of all, there was no indication that he couldn't beat Yakon in his base form. From what we saw he was comparable to Yakon, if not better. While you could say that this is my interpretation of the scene Goku had dodged three of Yakons moves. Two were done in complete darkness and Goku even managed to land a blow on Yakon. Goku, from what we saw, had the upper hand. Secondly. Gohan said that if he joined in Goku would not need to go SSJ. And as I stated before two base Saiyan's are nowhere near the strength of a single SSJ. So it is evident, even if we assume Goku was the weaker fighter between him and Yakon, that SSJ Goku would not need his full power to deal with Yakon given two base Saiyans would be able to handle him according to Gohan. And third, when has Goku not held back his full power when he is trying to conserve his energy for future battles? Goku fought against the Ginyu force while suppressing his battle power almost constantly. He fought against Freeza at the start while suppressing and he also fought against Cell while suppressing until he got serious. In the majority of fights if he been forced to use his full power for whatever reason then he has almost always held back. Even against Tenshinhan in the Tenkaichi Budokai he stated he wasn't giving it his all and was merely fighting at his tournament level power rather than his battle level power.

If we go by historical evidence, when SSJ Goku fought in the Cell Games, his full power in the state was represented through having an aura; while in a suppressed state he lacked the trait entirely. Even through visual comparison of SSJ1 Goku's aura against Yakon--when he gets his energy measured and after blowing Yakon up--there's a clear contrast present, where his aura earlier is drawn with a higher intensity. So I find no grounds of evidence to suggest he was deliberately suppressing at all.

Would it not depend on how much energy he is suppressing for him to lack his aura entirely? Gohan has an aura just before Boo was going to be released. But he still powers up further? And why do you assume he wasn't just suppressing but allowing his aura to come out to light the area? I would imagine that it is possible for a Saiyan to be suppressed but still allow their aura to spill out because their aura spills out at much lower levels when they are in battle. In this scenario it would be the reason why Goku would have an aura while still being suppressed.

What Perfect Cell vs. SSJ1 Gohan showed us is that their powers at the time were comparable enough that their physical attacks could cause the other to bleed when they actually get hit. This is where the artwork comes into play to support Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabura, because he actually does get hit by Dabura's magic attack, off-guard and cleanly. Yet aside from some tattered clothing, Gohan comes out without a scratch to show for it. This is further reinforced in the narrative by Babidi stating Dabura is not causing considerable damage and by Goku stating that Gohan only necessitated a senzu bean afterwards because he used up too much stamina. Considering Perfect Cell was demonstrated to be a SSJ1 tier opponent prior to revealing his full power, any person at SSJ1 level and below should naturally be able to get hurt by his attacks. Not only was Gohan hit by a far more powerful attack than what Cell hit him with, he was in a weaker state than his Cell Games self. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a weakened SSJ1 Gohan to tank a shot from someone that was stated to be at Cell's level, it doesn't matter what stage of Perfect Cell you try to rationalize Dabura as. Only SSJ2 power would grant Gohan that durability.

I'm sorry. But Gohan was struggling against Dabra even though they were fairly even. If Gohan was SSJ2 and struggling/"fighting evenly" against Dabra there is no way he isn't going to take damage from that magic attack unless Dabra fired a weak blast just to toy with Gohan. A character can't be even/losing to another and still be physically superior. That simply doesn't work. And you're saying that anybody below SSJ1 should be hurt by Cell's attacks. Anybody remotely even or slightly above Cell should still be hurt by Cell's attacks unless Cell is purposely holding back. It's the exact same as Dabra. Essentially it would look something like this:

Gohan(SSJ1 or SSJ2 depending on which you believe)
Attack: 100
Defence: 100

Dabura
Attack: 105
Defence: 105

Gohan hits Dabura
Dabura takes some damage.
Dabura hits Gohan.
Gohan takes some damage.
Dabura launches a magic blast.
Gohan should take damage but doesn't?

^How does this work exactly?

There is nothing to suggest the kiri reading was taken to be inaccurate. Frankly, it's irrelevant because Ki suppression may not even effect the kiri reading. From a narrative standpoint, it is completely pointless to introduce a new system to gauge power for just one time, never to be brought up again... only for it to be wrong. The most obvious purpose its inclusion served was a literary device to hype Dabura's power. Without that there's really no need for it.

Why? Scouters have been constantly wrong since the start of the Saiyan Saga. Why can't it be wrong? In actuality it was correct in that Goku is superior to Yakon. But we as the audience knew that. The only reason for it was so that the enemies would underestimate the Saiyan's further. There was actually no need for this new measurement system if you think about it because even if Goku was at full power as a SSJ he still had SSJ2 so any words Dabra or whoever else had on Goku's Kiri level would be useless anyway as that isn't even the strongest Goku could get.

[Tectorman]

Okay guys, let me lay this out for you. Gohan was not using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura. Here are some things you all need to consider in trying to figure these things out:

1) All the way back in early Z, Gohan was thrown at a mountain by Piccolo right after the Raditz fight, he obliterated it. He went nuts on Freeza and pummeled him, even though he wasn't quite powerful enough enraged to kill him outright. He feared doing this against Cell, and even warned him beforehand. Unfortunately, Cell's saiyan DNA demanded a strong opponent, so it only encouraged him to tick Gohan off and see for himself.

The thing we must remember is Goku prepared him [Gohan] for this exact eventuality. It was Goku's whole stupid secret plan for beating Cell. In the Time Chamber, Goku taught Gohan everything he knew at that point about martial arts and fighting technique until he [Gohan] unknowingly surpassed him [Goku]. His fighting technique and skills were honed to a razor's edge at this point in the series.

The fight ended the way it did, and Goku had to sacrifice himself to save the others. Partially due to Gohan getting out of control in his enraged state and wanting to toy with Cell rather than finish the job. He was just a kid after all, and despite being Cell's superior in strength and power at that point in the battle (due to Goku's training), he did not have the battle experience to know when he needed to go for the kill and not waste anymore time.

2) So yes, after losing his father, Gohan slacked. As someone else pointed out, it was a traumatic event for him. Fighting or training much probably reminded him of his father, and to a degree, his [Gohan's] failure that led to Goku's no other choice sacrifice. When Vegeta says that Gohan was better as a kid when he fought Cell, he means in terms of fighting skills. He was sloppy against Dabura, out of practice, rusty. His power had not grown due to lack of training. Here are the keys that led to Gohan's failure against Dabura:

-Goku was back for one 24 hour period, he assumed Gohan had continued to train and was excited to see how much better he'd be.

-Vegeta had trained nonstop, had surpassed Gohan, and was focused on gauging how much stronger Goku was. He handled Pui Pui in normal form with ease, Goku handled Yakkon with Super Saiyan 1, the two of them were toying with their opponents. When Gohan's turn came up, he didn't want to disappoint them by having to reveal max power to win his fight. He was out of practice and underestimated his opponent.

-Gohan was able to go show Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament to Kibito, yes, but it wasn't long after he'd anxiously healed Videl with the Senzu, and was still likely tense and primed somewhat. So it was easier for him to tap into his rage there. What happened after that? He was flying with Kibito and Videl. Videl who showed interest in him previously, but was standoffish and obstinate at times about her power and confronting Gohan. Now, she was calm and sweet, pieced together that it was Gohan who beat Cell and not her father, and told him to be careful and come back to her.

-Dude was tripping on cloud nine in love feelings, and didn't want to do anything to endanger people he cared about by losing it again. It wasn't until Goku was leaving to fight Vegeta, and told Gohan to not be afraid of his anger, to remember how to tap into his true power, and nothing could stop him. Goku realized Gohan was having trouble again harnessing it, and was once again giving him the encouragement that he needed.

Gohan was SS1 against Dabura, it makes sense given the context if you read between the lines at everything that was going on with his character and the situations he was in at that time. Thanks for reading, that's all I have on the matter.

I wanted to quote this again, just to express how refreshing this is. These are characters with motivations and nuances outside, sometimes way outside, the concerns of battle. I think we see this sort of attempt at insight into the characters too sparingly. Thank you.

...

To chime in on a comment that the presence of an aura denoted a character's use of full power, we already know that to not be the case. Cell was sporting an aura against Goku long before he revealed his "true, terrible power" against SSJ2 Gohan. Furthermore, it can't even be argued that the presence of an aura signifies any change at all in a character's battle power. Nappa comes from a time in the series when the bad guys haven't yet figured out how to control, suppress, or raise their power levels beyond what they have by default. And yet, we see him with an aura AND sans an aura.

So while it can be argued that the typical depiction of an aura is to signify "this character is now stronger than the last time he appeared on-panel without an aura", that is not a hard and fast rule.