"This looks/feels like something out of AF/fanfiction"

[fadeddreams5]

I was referring to people's reactions before we learned anything about the movie besides Frieza was coming back. Resurrection F is terrible. I was really excited for it when it was announced though.

[Kamiccolo9]

How exactly is Dr. Gero a "repeat enemy?" He was invented for the Cell Arc.

[TheMikado]

How exactly is Dr. Gero a "repeat enemy?" He was invented for the Cell Arc.

Dr. Gero was part of the Red Ribbon army which Goku fought in Dragonball and was the one who designed their technology. I guess he himself didn't explicitly "return" but the enemy and someone involved in Gokus past returned and with much more plausible reasoning especially since as I said it took decades for him to come after Goku again.

[ekrolo2]

See, I find that Gero being tied into the RRA doesn't really work. The RRA are, for lack of a better term, fucking jokes in Dragon Ball. Besides Tao, who's just a hired gun, they're all incompetent jackasses who couldn't get anything remotely worthwhile done on their best days. Now you expect me to believe that this one scientist guy went around, apparently kidnapped people and performed forced cyber augmentation on them? It's not like the rest of the series where you see the transition from more light hearted comedy into the darker, more vicious Z-era. It's like if in one episode Dick Dastardly was his standard, Saturday morning cartoon villain self then a couple episodes later tied African orphans to the hood of his car and threatened to smash into the other Wacky Racers unless they let him stay at first place.

Then there's the whole thing about some shmuck from Earth being able to create beings stronger than Freeza. 19 and 20 and even Cell kind of get away with it because the formers use energy absorption and Cell is a Frankenstein's monster of Super Saiyan's, Super Namekians, super humans and Freeza & Cold. 17, 18 and 16? Don't buy that at all.

[TheMikado]

See, I find that Gero being tied into the RRA doesn't really work. The RRA are, for lack of a better term, fucking jokes in Dragon Ball. Besides Tao, who's just a hired gun, they're all incompetent jackasses who couldn't get anything remotely worthwhile done on their best days. Now you expect me to believe that this one scientist guy went around, apparently kidnapped people and performed forced cyber augmentation on them? It's not like the rest of the series where you see the transition from more light hearted comedy into the darker, more vicious Z-era. It's like if in one episode Dick Dastardly was his standard, Saturday morning cartoon villain self then a couple episodes later tied African orphans to the hood of his car and threatened to smash into the other Wacky Racers unless they let him stay at first place.

Then there's the whole thing about some shmuck from Earth being able to create beings stronger than Freeza. 19 and 20 and even Cell kind of get away with it because the formers use energy absorption and Cell is a Frankenstein's monster of Super Saiyan's, Super Namekians, super humans and Freeza & Cold. 17, 18 and 16? Don't buy that at all.

You're looking at pretty specific out of universe answer. In universe, Dr. Gero supposedly created Android #8 who was really powerful. We never see him fight but he does take bullets and punch through walls and such. In general the Dragonball universe especially on Earth allows for them to create tons of technology which doesn't make sense. Gravity chambers, flying vehicles, capsules, etc. You could probably even make the argument that he salvages some of Frieza's tech when he came to Earth if you want. Or you can make the case of finding Goku's pod, or Raditz's pod, or Nappa's pod, or namekian technology. Etc. There's been more then enough Earth and alien tech on Earth for him to draw from. No saying its a valid argument or not but in-universe it would be totally impossible to provide a really simple explanation. Look, I'm not saying the Gero narrative is perfect, but it a way more natural, original, and imaginative means of bringing a "old" enemy back then what we got with RoF.

[ekrolo2]

See, I find that Gero being tied into the RRA doesn't really work. The RRA are, for lack of a better term, fucking jokes in Dragon Ball. Besides Tao, who's just a hired gun, they're all incompetent jackasses who couldn't get anything remotely worthwhile done on their best days. Now you expect me to believe that this one scientist guy went around, apparently kidnapped people and performed forced cyber augmentation on them? It's not like the rest of the series where you see the transition from more light-hearted comedy into the darker, more vicious Z-era. It's like if in one episode Dick Dastardly was his standard, Saturday morning cartoon villain self then a couple episodes later tied African orphans to the hood of his car and threatened to smash into the other Wacky Racers unless they let him stay in the first place.

Then there's the whole thing about some shmuck from Earth being able to create beings stronger than Freeza. 19 and 20 and even Cell kind of get away with it because the formers use energy absorption and Cell is a Frankenstein's monster of Super Saiyan's, Super Namekians, super humans and Freeza & Cold. 17, 18 and 16? Don't buy that at all.

You're looking at pretty specific out of universe answer. In-universe, Dr. Gero supposedly created Android #8 who was really powerful. We never see him fight but he does take bullets and punch through walls and such. In general, the Dragonball universe, especially on Earth, allows for them to create tons of technology which don't make sense. Gravity chambers, flying vehicles, capsules, etc. You could probably even make the argument that he salvages some of Frieza's tech when he came to Earth if you want. Or you can make the case of finding Goku's pod, or Raditz's pod, or Nappa's pod, or Namekian technology. Etc. There's been more than enough Earth and alien tech on Earth for him to draw from. No saying it's a valid argument or not but in-universe it would be totally impossible to provide a really simple explanation. Look, I'm not saying the Gero narrative is perfect, but it a way more natural, original, and imaginative means of bringing an "old" enemy back then what we got with RoF.

I don't think the issue with Freeza is that the story itself is generic, it just went about it in THE most generic way you can do it. Battle of Gods is also a pretty generic premise: a big reunion of all the characters which was already done before. What made it interesting is the fact it introduced a villain who's unlike any of the ones before him and is the first time in-universe we get to see characters address the fact that Goku's an asshole. This is further pushed by Goku & Beerus' discussion about pride and makes the whole movie work. It's using a generic premise as a launching pad to say something interesting about Goku who's stagnant as all fucking hell.

F could've done something similar by having Freeza develop into an actually effective villain and using his new found effectiveness and pragmatism to shine a light on our good guys who are, for lack of a better word, completely ineffective. The only reason the good guys win is by sheer luck and the amount of asspulls they have. F could've been the movie where their get out of jail free cards are all taken away and the characters can be faced by the realization that they're pretty much screwed without their Otherworld help & two sets of Dragon Balls. That they can't be so selfish and irresponsible with the Earth anymore. Instead, the movie is just Freeza comes back, gets a new form to fight Goku's new form and he dies. The movie tries to make something of itself but it doesn't amount to anything nor does anything in the movie leave a lasting impact.

That's why I think the whole "F is just fanfiction-y genericness" argument comes off as a gross oversimplification of things.

[pacz360]

The reason why this feels like a fanfic argument due to recent stuff lately in the series mainly shit like rof which feels like a bad fan fiction coming to life the movie felt like parody and didn't contribute anything towards the franchise instead felt like some toei from the past I mean come on freeza comes back trains 4 month and surpass every Saiyan transformations that and goku new form is something you see on deviant art including othershit it's not hard to see why say this argument

[TheMikado]

^ The last two posts say different things but have it exactly right and are both correct.

RoF COULD have been a scathing in-universe critique of the characters with some real true character development. Instead it was "more" of what fans wanted to see.
So I agree that the premise of it being Frieza is not necessary a problem, but the fact that its was Frieza and compounding by the lack of anything meaningfully contributed to the Dragonball Franchise really makes it clear why people see it as fan fiction. Its not the individual components themselves but the sum of those components paint a picture of something an amateur writer would have come up with.

[TenshinFan]

Can someone explain to me what these sort of complaints are actually supposed to mean?

I see them lobbed at things that people seem to just not like. Some people think that minimalistic designs like Golden Freeza or Super Saiyan God are just "fanfiction" crap. Other people think super-detailed things like Cold's 6th form in DBM are "like something out of AF".

Story idea that's been done a million times? Some people think it's just fanfiction tier garbage. Something that's never been done, and feels like something Toriyama wouldn't do? Fanfiction tier garbage.

There doesn't seem to be any consistent rhyme of reason motivating the label, and I need help seeing if there's anything beyond "I don't like this and I'm too lazy to bother articulating why!".

I would not exactly say it looks like "fan fiction," but to be honest I was pretty disappointed in a lot of Super's designs. I mean, Golden Freeza... it's basically, design-wise, a re-hash of Metal Coola. It just seems lazy. Especially compared to the intricacies of Mecha Freeza. Same with SSG and SSGSS (ugh those names). Red hair... just like False Super Saiyan from Lord Slug. And then... blue hair! Okay. At least SS3 added lenght. And SS4 was a fresh, radical change in design. Not trying to get into another GT vs Super debate, but I think that plays a big part in the polarization of fans on the two series. Some people prefer GT because it played around a lot more in the character designs, and a lot of people dislike the series for the same reason. I love the designs of Bills and Whis. But blue goku and gold freeza... come on. Lazy.

[TheMikado]

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

[TekTheNinja]

Spoiler:

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

Ha. The official announcement thead is FULL of people calling the arc fanfictiony.

[TheMikado]

Spoiler:

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

Ha. The official announcement thead is FULL of people calling the arc fanfictiony.

Right, but we have been having the argument that Super was fanfictiony long before the Future Trunks reveal. Does the official reveal of the return of Future Trunks bolster the argument that Super feels more "fanfictiony"?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I always have a problem when People uses the word FanFiction as a negative detrimental qualification, fanfiction is just a NARRATIVE made by fans, but a narrative nonethelss with the same virtues and fault like any other narrative created by another "proffesional" author.

[dbzfan7]

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

Yep. Just another one in the pile of fan fiction tropes. Also likely to bury Present Trunks even harder, if that's even possible.

[TekTheNinja]

Spoiler:

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

Ha. The official announcement thead is FULL of people calling the arc fanfictiony.

Right, but we have been having the argument that Super was fanfictiony long before the Future Trunks reveal. Does the official reveal of the return of Future Trunks bolster the argument that Super feels more "fanfictiony"?

It really depends on how it's handled.

[TheMikado]

I always have a problem when People uses the word FanFiction as a negative detrimental qualification, fanfiction is just a NARRATIVE made by fans, but a narrative nonethelss with the same virtues and fault like any other narrative created by another "proffesional" author.

The reason is that fanfiction tends to inspired by and using existing characters and concepts with minor tweaks.
Example: RoF presented "Golden Frieza" and SSB. Two existing concepts with pretty minor changes to make the new form.

A good example of "original" narrative would be developing the androids and Cell saga. What started off as mechanical beings became a biological genetic weapon, the use of which in Dragonball to that degree was very novel and Cell looks nothing like any previous design before for better or for worse.

No one is saying ALL fanfiction is bad and uninspired with minor changes, we have this argument every time someone used the word. But if you took a collection of all fan works ever made by every person 6 and 7 year olds included, 90% would be terrible.

Its like someone saying that some food is sweet like fruit and then someone getting angry because 10% of fruits aren't sweet. Its just a general statement and not a rule and no need to get upset about. If we can all agree that the vast majority of fanfiction is terrible and in many peoples opinion this sounds like something someone would write in a terrible fanfiction it would be easier to have this conversation.

[TheMikado]

Ha. The official announcement thead is FULL of people calling the arc fanfictiony.

Right, but we have been having the argument that Super was fanfictiony long before the Future Trunks reveal. Does the official reveal of the return of Future Trunks bolster the argument that Super feels more "fanfictiony"?

It really depends on how it's handled.

So does the return of Future Trunks add to the feel of the fan fiction narrative?

Yep. Just another one in the pile of fan fiction tropes. Also likely to bury Present Trunks even harder, if that's even possible.

Agreed but this is just a speculation thread and asking why people feel something is like fan fiction. We have yet to know if it shakes out and I think everyone is interested to know how it goes.

[LightBing]

So what's the difference between a fan-fiction trope and a regular trope? I honestly want to know. Freeza returning couldn't be called a fan-fiction trope, maybe a Dragon Ball trope, since it repeats what the manga did before; ex. Tao Pai Pai. In fact it's just a regular old trope.

Taking into account the whole scope of fan-fiction existing, an array of ideas has been used. To the point it's hard not to have connection points, even if the story's mostly differ. So is everything new Dragon Ball will do, fan-fiction tropes?

Are people aware of the superficiality of such comment, regarding this new development. We have no plot, only slightly tidbits. Resuming it to everything, just have to an easy bash towards the author/show is all this looks to me. That or a lack of an articulated dislike.

I have to clarify I don't include those who have specific opinions, like "I saw this type of idea in some fan-fictions were it was handled poorly, I'm suspicious of this".

[dbzfan7]

The reason why Mecha Freeza and Tao Pai Pai don't feel like fanfiction is because they subverted the trope. Both came back as jokes (Chaozu being a fake out). In most common fan fiction a bad guy comes back and either is immediately unbelievably strong, or gets unbelievably strong in usually questionable ways. Can't really count much common fan fiction where a bad guy comes back, and is a total joke or benchmark. Maybe some with Broly because some people hate him and wrote something where he gets his ass kicked.

A fanfiction trope is one you've commonly seen in fanfiction, relating usually to fan service. A regular trope is something common in Dragon Ball like food jokes and puns.

[TheMikado]

I think you are trying very hard to ignore the common language usage of this. I will provide various example of more "fanfictiony" scenarios.

Fanfiction are obviously fan-made arcs based or inspired by existing works. A few common traits the appear in the MAJORITY of fan fiction, not all.

1) Failure to expand the lore in any tangible or meaningful way outside of a tweaked scenario.
2) Poorly implemented story/scenario/plot with little to no back story or build-up
3) Nonsensical scenarios which invalidate established lore rules
4) Minor tweaks to existing scenario presented are major changes.

Examples in DBS. Vegeta gains SSB through a previously unknown method of training hard with a God for a few months.
Frieza gains a new dramatically higher Golden form from training for a few months. SSJ and God ki turns their hair and aura blue.

Properly done setup in DBZ. SSJ was hinted at long before revealed. Multiple previews including the color scheme. The form is accepted for what is without explanation because there are visible changes (flashes and transition)

Equivalent not DB media. Making Darth Vader/ Yoda return and dual wield light sabers because the force was so strong it their bodies that it resurrected them..

We are not stating Trunks return is fanfictiony YET. We are stating it has the danger to become very fanfictiony if not handled properly.