Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[gokaiblue]

^
Exactly. To me, we can leave it at that: a reflection of the time. Neither view is necessarily "wrong" or "right." Hell, we'll probably not admit some of the things we're doing right now 30 years from now. Social standards change. What was acceptable back in the 80's and 90's might not be so much now. However, i don't think there's anything in the franchise that could really cause any "issues."

[Cipher]

^Exactly. To me, we can leave it at that: a reflection of the time. Neither view is necessarily "wrong" or "right." Hell, we'll probably not admit some of the things we're doing right now 30 years from now. Social standards change. What was acceptable back in the 80's and 90's might not be so much now. However, i don't think there's anything in the franchise that could really cause any "issues."

No. I think it's unequivocally wrong, while also being a reflection of the time.

I don't give the Ancient Egyptians a pass for conscripting Jewish labor because it was just Egyptians doing as Egyptions do. That doesn't mean everyone in that culture was a horrible person, but what was happening was no-bones-about it wrong and should not be repeated.

The ability to both understand and unequivocally condemn past social institutions, especially in matters of civil rights and representation, is one of the things that makes teaching history so important.

And yeah, someone looking at this thread in thirty years will probably look at even the more progressive posts here and go, "What the fuck, dude?" I hope they do. I wish I could be a little more outspoken.

However, i don't think there's anything in the franchise that could really cause any "issues."

It contains portrayals that would continue to feed into what made life shitty if you were living in Japan and were gay, or black, or a woman hoping not to get groped. It is not an outrageous offender in these regards, but it wasn't doing anything to help and was doing at least a little bit to hurt.

[Kamiccolo9]

^Exactly. To me, we can leave it at that: a reflection of the time. Neither view is necessarily "wrong" or "right." Hell, we'll probably not admit some of the things we're doing right now 30 years from now. Social standards change. What was acceptable back in the 80's and 90's might not be so much now. However, i don't think there's anything in the franchise that could really cause any "issues."

No. I think it's unequivocally wrong, while also being a reflection of the time.

I don't give the Ancient Egyptians a pass for conscripting Jewish labor because it was just Egyptians doing as Egyptions do.

The ability to both understand and unequivocally condemn past social institutions, especially in matters of civil rights and representation, is one of the things that makes teaching history so important.

And yeah, someone looking at this thread in thirty years will probably look at even the more progressive posts here and go, "What the fuck, dude?" I hope they do. I wish I could be a little more outspoken.

Yeah.

As someone who teaches history, the whole "we can't possibly comprehend why they did these things" just pisses me off. My whole job is about understanding other cultures, and helping other people to. It's not even especially difficult, if you work at it. I mean, you'll never fully put yourself in the shoes of another person or culture, but no one should realistically expect themselves to.

[gokaiblue]

But again, what is there to be "offended" by in Dragon Ball? The only thing that really comes to mind is Mr. Popo, but even then that's simply a character design. He may talk a bit oddly in the Japanese version, but he's still wise and strong. And General Blue? The only indication I got that he was gay was when Bulma tried to seduce him. Other than that, he was just a neat freak.

[Cipher]

But again, what is there to be "offended" by in Dragon Ball? The only thing that really comes to mind is Mr. Popo, but even then that's simply a character design. He may talk a bit oddly in the Japanese version, but he's still wise and strong. And General Blue? The only indication I got that he was gay was when Bulma tried to seduce him. Other than that, he was just a neat freak.

Otokosuki, pervert gags, sambo charicatures outside of Popo without any other portrayals of black characters (this is actually something that comes more from Toriyama's other work though) (The anime also went to town on Blue once he got to Penguin Village). The fact that Blue and Otokosuki are seemingly the only gay characters to exist in this world is just kind of not great.

Again, totally agreed--it's not that bad. Amazingly not-so for the time, even. And much better with its women, pervert gags aside, than many of its shonen contemporaries. It's just, when we ask the question, "Does Drsgon Ball contain some problematic stuff?" Hell yeah it does. Per the opening post, it would be awesome to see them addressed in the new material, but I don't expect it.

[LightBing]

I do want to point out that making sure Kame-Sennin and co. get their comeuppance doesn't diminish the ... harmfulness? ... of the joke though. Playing groping and peeping up for humor portrays them as harmless gags so long as the old man gets slapped afterward. And while we can all tell fantasy from fiction and I doubt it led to much mirrored behavior among kids in Japan who grew up with this trope, it still very much plays into an air of "Oh, you crazy, dirty old man! What're you gonna do?" when it's actually just super not-okay and Japan did indeed have a big problem with molestation and is generally still a very sexist culture compared to peer nations.

When you make something a joke, you trivialize the experience. Dragon Ball's not guilty of establishing that attitude; it just didn't do anything to stop itself from furthering it. Today, those are the the bits in both Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump that make me more uncomfortable than anything else.

I agree with that. Altought establishing them as offenders does provide the minimum context children should receive, which that it is wrong. Maybe as children we don't recognize immediately as something with big consequences and as an serious offense, since children aren't judged by society equality as adults. But as one grows up and become adults, equal in the eyes of the law it becomes clear.
If there's a disconnect in a person's growth, it's usually the support group or lack there of which is to blame.

Dragon Ball is if anything a insight at what were perceptions of the Japanese society at a time, very limited of course; the author is a single person afterwall. I doubt it influenced negatively children, maybe in a few cases with the lack of contextualization.

I just remembered a dreadful scene in Dragon Ball, when Oolong puts something in Bulma's food to molest her. Receiving no punishment for his actions. That scene is beyond simple insensibility.

[MCDaveG]

Well, you are watching Japanese series and sadly for most modern western viewers, Japanese culture is sexist, racist, and homophobic...
That's nothing negative on Japan, it is like that. You can say, that Czech culture is sexist, racist and homophobic as well.
It's just that some countries don't have that developed correctness or don't have their minorities vocal enough, to stop these issues,
which are mostly exagerated from my point of view and I don't consider myself sexist, racist nor homophobic,
just not as tight-assed and can make fun of everything, because I am non caring a**hole (If I would explain this to someone, because I care but I refuse to discuss it with crazy activists).

I think that calling someone N-word (tough afro-americans do it, I was a huge fan of West Coast Rap and N. W. A.) or that women having lower wages, is not correct,
but I don't see problem with Attendant Black (which I thought was cool as a kid, how he wasted Red and took on Goku) or Mr. Popo's design (Genie),
Dragon Ball sex jokes or General Blue being gay and executing his officer for picking up his nose.

One of my US friends was offended, when I told him that I listened to Niggaz With Attitude, well it's effing Dr. Dre and co. I don't see any problem with it.

PS: the racist and sexist in Japan isn't exagerated sadly... But women are slowly (sloooowlyyyy) getting better and you don't see these issues much in the anime.

[gokaiblue]

^
Exactly my point. We're becoming too sensitive as a culture and are trying to project this onto a product that wasn't made with these sensitivities in mind.

[MCDaveG]

Define "doesn't put up with it," because I'm quite sure you have no idea what you're talking about, especially since you seem to be afraid of the big, scary gays corrupting our youth, or some shit like that.

Comparing an LGBT lifestyle to doing drugs. Seriously, man?

What I'm talking about is that only a small number of countries act like it's normal and encourage it.

They're both bad habits that shouldn't be looked at as normal.

Wow man! Really?? Homosexuality is a bad habit?
Jesus Christ, I don't care if I will get banned, but this is just so wrong.
I have a few gay friends and can tell you, that they are normal and healthy human beings, they just have affection for the same sex and were born with it.
It's not like smoking, which you can quit anytime, but like being born with green, blue or brown eyes.

Well and add this to the irony, that I was once framed by admin to be homophobic for calling Flow's Chala-Head-Chala being gay

[Cipher]

I just remembered a dreadful scene in Dragon Ball, when Oolong puts something in Bulma's food to molest her. Receiving no punishment for his actions. That scene is beyond simple insensibility.

Unfortunately that's in the otherwise-very-funny chapter/episode in which Puar mimics Goku so Yamcha can steal the Dragon Balls.

But yeah. You're just supposed to be like "That rascally Oolong!" When it's like, "Dude."

[MCDaveG]

I just remembered a dreadful scene in Dragon Ball, when Oolong puts something in Bulma's food to molest her. Receiving no punishment for his actions. That scene is beyond simple insensibility.

Unfortunately that's in the otherwise-very-funny chapter/episode in which Puar mimics Goku so Yamcha can steal the Dragon Balls.

But yeah. You're just supposed to be like "That rascally Oolong!" When it's like, "Dude."

He's a pig, leave him be. He just wanted to ''peek'', but that had to be Viz's translation edit, lol.

[Xeztin]

As much as I love Dragon Ball, I really hate that it's sexist, racist, and homophobic. What I hate even more is that whenever somebody tries to bring this up they get berated for being "Stupid." There must be someone else out there who would be open to discussing the social issues in DB?
Keep in mind I am simply trying to improve the future of Dragon Ball with this. I feel that if, for example, Pan became a powerful Super Saiyan in the future, or if a gay character was introduced and not portrayed offensively, then the franchise could redeem itself for its past views.

I think people shouldn't take these things to heart or seriously. If every series was this way then they all would be the same and that would become bland. You have these authors who have their own beliefs which influences the manga. Even some authors rib at these things in their own works and at what they look at as mistakes, Like Piccolo admitting he can't keep up with Goku and Vegeta anymore because its their show now.

[JulieYBM]

Is Dragon Ball offensive? Yes. Whether it's the sambo caricatures, the rape joke, the penises, the titties or the use of violence to resolve conflict, somebody is going to get offended should they read it. Granted, fiction never really offends me unless it's poorly done or lack entertainment value. Dragon Ball is ultimately the culmination of some dumbass in Japan who liked to scribble on paper and say "give me money for this".

I read a mildly diverse range of stuff and try to watch a diverse group of film and television, too. Whether it's dumb shit like Dragon Ball, niche independently published comics, erotic literature or the occasional Star Trek novel, I like to think I have something I can say. As a writer of fiction myself, I would like to make a defense: artists don't have to be inoffensive. The more a work tries to be inoffensive the more one gets the dreck that 4Kids Entertainment was once king of. Toriyama has no social responsibility to be politically correct, whether he is or is not a widely read author. Humans have free will separate from inanimate objects that lack sentience and it is an offense and ridiculous notion to assert that art should be held to such a standard of responsibility.

[Cipher]

As another writer, one currently authoring this post when I should be editing a story for my thesis, and someone pretty staunchly beholden to a "no safe art" stance, I disagree that believing in the freedom of the author means we can't talk reasonably about problematic elements in Dragon Ball (or in anything). Especially because they're dumb jokes or caricatures reflective of their time. They're not meant to rattle; they're meant to be invisible or moderately funny.

Which is exactly why it's okay to look at them thirty-odd years later and say, "Yes, I understand why this is there. But I wish it weren't."

Going back to some of the semantic issues that crop up in discussions like this, I think "offensive" is a bit of an issue of a diction issue too. It, too, downplays the reality of the complaints about this stuff blindly appearing in popular art (and that's the thing here -- "blindly"; you want to be subversive, go for it, but Toriyama isn't trying to step a foot over the boundary of good taste to get a rise). "Offensive" implies that someone is being personally hurt by it appearing -- if only they wouldn't be so quick to be offended, it wouldn't be an issue. That's not really what's going on here, or any time representation is discussed. I'm certainly not "offended" by this stuff. It doesn't make me feel bad about myself. (How could it? I'm a straight, white, male American in 2016.) I just think it's an issue when it patterns popular media and goes unexamined. I can't help but think about what it would have been like to have been, say, a gay kid or black kid in Japan in the '80s and how -- yeah, you could put up with it -- but how much it would suck to never get anything validating from your popular entertainment. Everything would just reinforce that there's something comedic or strange about you that others wouldn't have to put up with.

Dragon Ball's not the only nor worst offender. Toriyama is in all likelihood a completely open-minded person who just didn't think twice about playing into some material viewed as being ripe for jokes in his day. But that kind of empathetic exercise is enough for me to say, "This is a great series, but I kind of wish these things hadn't been a part of it." That's all.

[precita]

Dragonball was written in the 80's. In Japan.

If you think about what the U.S. was like in the 80's then think about 80's Japan being like 50 years behind that. The perverted gags aren't too bad outside a few small scenes and its all comical. Likewise how old was Toriyama when he first started writing Dragonball? Obviously a young male artist is going to want to draw boobies and draw a pretty girl in his stories, Bulma's entire character design was obviously what he pictured an attractive female teen being like in his mind.

[Footlong Shoe]

This is an issue I feel somewhat strongly about, so I'd like to state my thoughts. I can see why people are offended by General Blue, and especially Otokosuki, but I usually just write this off because it's comedy. I'll admit, I never saw either of them as especially problematic, but the fact is, it's not like these types of people don't exist in the real world.

That's not to say it's right to think "here's a gay guy, let's make him adhere to extreme stereotypes!", but it's important to acknowledge that we shouldn't try to ignore these stereotypes for the sake of being inoffensive. Some see Blue's attraction to children as a homosexual stereotype, but I just assumed he was a pedophile, something that exists in the real world.

When it comes to Oolong's antics, I don't see them as especially problenatic. From my perspective, Oolong seemed like he was intended to be a despicable character. Let's not forget he terrorized a village and kidnapped little girls. As for Muten Roshi, he's just a horny old man. I don't have an excuse for him.

Someone mentioned General Black earlier, but the only thing that could really be offensive about that character is his name. That said, I don't know anyone that would feel hurt by it.

Which is exactly why it's okay to look at them thirty-odd years later and say, "Yes, I understand why this is there. But I wish it weren't."

I may be taking you too literally, but I disagree with the "wishing it weren't there" part. This might make me a bad person, but all these things were just part of the humor for me, and I just laughed along.

I never once thought of Dragon Ball being a racist/sexist/homophobic series, and I wasn't aware anyone did before reading this thread. I'd like to add that I agreed with every point Akira made in his post, and it expresses how I feel about this topic in general.

[Cipher]

It's not that Blue and Otokosuki can't be the way they are -- in fact, horrible anime gag aside, Blue's pretty free of belittling humor at the expense of his sexual orientation. Otokosuki is ... well, that's just not very well-handled, but it's not as if leather daddies don't exist.

It's just that they're the only two gay characters we see in this world, and at least in the case of the latter, his sexuality is totally the butt (and entirety of) a joke. (The former is still pretty heavily stereotypical when it comes to being fussy and prim.)

Bummer if you're a gay kid reading that, you know?

[gokaiblue]

^
You're post kinda lost me. I thought this was Kanzenshuu, not Tumblr.

[Soppa Saia People]

^
You're post kinda lost me. I thought this was Kanzenshuu, not Tumblr.

Well I don't know how you confused a Dragon Ball website/fourm and a microblogging platform and social networking website.

[Cipher]

^
You're post kinda lost me. I thought this was Kanzenshuu, not Tumblr.

Let me know what part lost you and I'll try to explain it again, even though you're being an ass and I've never been on Tumblr for more than a few minutes.