ssj x10 multiplier?

[Darkprince410]

If there was any hint that the mastery made his regular Ssj form stronger than it normally would be, that'd be one thing. But there's nothing in the manga suggesting that he's somehow tapping into more power than he normally would (and Goku's dialogue actually suggests otherwise), and none of the official guide books hint at it either. Goku's statement, to me, is pretty clear that he recognizes that Ssj 2nd and 3rd Grade are the stronger forms, but he'd rather go with something that offered him the better balance, even though he knows it's less strength. If mastery, as you claimed it, gave him more strength than Ssj 3rd Grade, while also giving him higher levels of speed and virtually no ki drain, it'd make no sense for Goku to talk about his training approach as if he were going to settle for the regular Ssj form less overall strength and speed boost for the sake of the balance and efficiency of it.

It makes sense to me that Goku would choose efficiency over power, sticking to a form with a lower strength output if it meant giving him staying power, even if he had more powerful forms at his disposal.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Considering Frieza using only 50% of his power and withstanding Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, SSJ even at 30x seems a bit low and Goku would have lost against 100% Frieza no contest. And if SSJ is 10x, Kaioken simply wouldn't be a multiplier and this would result in a long string of contradictions in fights. The fact that a 2x KK vs. Nappa was enough to single blow KO him is enough evidence that Kaioken gives Goku substantial boosts in strength and speed, not just minor increases.

I can imagine in DB Super it's 10x or 5x, but in the rest of the series I am comfortable with it being 50x.

About Mastering SSJ. I've said this once before; all Goku did in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber was make it so Super Saiyan felt normal and he could have complete control of it in a battle. He and Gohan made their bases higher than Vegeta's and Trunks's base, thus their SSJ is stronger at 50x, and so on. It doesn't mean anything else. If "MSSJ or FPSSJ" were actual forms, that would change multipliers for every other form. I also firmly believe Goku and Gohan were both suppressed in SSJ state before they got serious with Cell. That is something the other Saiyans couldn't do.

[Speedster]

Considering Frieza using only 50% of his power and withstanding Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, SSJ even at 30x seems a bit low and Goku would have lost against 100% Frieza no contest. I can imagine in DB Super it's 10x or 5x, but in the rest of the series I am comfortable with it being 50x.

That is only if you assume that the scale in the Saiyan arc, the Namek saga and the Freeza saga is always one and the same i.e. the scale for example doesn't change in the millions and is the same as in the thousands. That IS an assumption given that we already know that in the thousands the scale is *definitely* different than in the sub-1000 range. And not just by feats but by statements as well -- see Old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power and winning with ease against pre-Choshinsui Goku.

So for all we know Kaioken could probably multiply one’s power level by said multiplier when the base is in the thousands and the product is in the thousands too, but it doesn't result to direct multiplication in the millions range. Actually if you pay attention to the details you will realise that there is evidence to support this notion.

When Goku came out of the spaceship his full base power level was around 90,000 i.e. about 11x bigger than his base power level in the Saiyan arc. As a result of his base getting stronger by 11x he said that he could definitely pull a KKx10. Given that beforehand his maximum was x4 it was a 2.5x increase in his top KK multiplier. As an 11-fold increase resulted to an 2.5x increase in the top KK multiplier it follows that, if the scale in the millions were the same as in the thousands, a further 33-fold increase in power level (from 90K to 3M) would result to a further 7.5x increase in the top KK multiplier. And as that was previously x10 it would be x75. But apparently this is not what happened. Goku with an alleged base of 3 million could just pull with extreme difficulty a Kaiokenx20 i.e. a mere 2x increase on the stated previous top multiplier (which he could pull with a base of 90K).

And now in Super we have the same thing. SSJB Goku>>>>enraged SSJ2 Vegeta. Still SSJB KKx10 Goku is below Beerus despite Beerus stating that he used 10% of his power against enraged SSJ2 Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

^ Hold on, are you seriously proposing that the KK multiplier increases linearly based on the character's base power levels?
I think that theory is pretty ridiculous when we know that KK results in a strain on the body and being 11x stronger only really means his body if more readily available to handle it.

For example being able to bicep curl x2 weight than before does not mean I should be able to necessarily do 1/2 weight twice as many times.
It sounds even more ridiculous if you put it in running terms. I can run a 400 yard dash very quickly, so if I'm running half as fast I should be able to run 800 yards easily... Power and endurance have a small correlation but that are FAR FAR from 1:1 and the correlation diminishes the farther you go in either direction .

[Speedster]

^ Hold on, are you seriously proposing that the KK multiplier increases linearly based on the character's base power levels? I think that theory is pretty ridiculous when we know that KK results in a strain on the body and being 11x stronger only really means his body if more readily available to handle it. Power and endurance have a small correlation but that are FAR FAR from 1:1 and the correlation diminishes the farther you go in either direction .

Not sure if you understood me correctly. The show made it very clear that by having Goku increasing his power level he could increase his KK maximum endurance. Not by 1:1 ratio. In particular we know that by increasing his power level 11-fold Goku could increase his KK max endurance 2.5-fold. That is a ratio of 4.4:1.

Yet when Goku subsequently increased his power level 33-fold (an increase that was 3x bigger than before) while you would expect this endurance to increase 7.5-fold (or at least in that ballpark) it instead increased just 2-fold. That is an even smaller increase than the one he had when he previously increased his power level just 11-fold (an increase that is 1/3 compared to his 33-fold increase).

For example being able to bicep curl x2 weight than before does not mean I should be able to necessarily do 1/2 weight twice as many times. It sounds even more ridiculous if you put it in running terms. I can run a 400 yard dash very quickly, so if I'm running half as fast I should be able to run 800 yards easily...

These examples are irrelevant. You try to assert human limitations as counterexamples when we are talking about characters who are already performing superhuman feats. As I said we saw Goku increasing his endurance 2.5fold for an 11fold increase in base power. That is actual information from the show.

Besides it is all about energies anyway. If I can lift twice the weight then I am doing twice the work. Work is equal to the change in kinetic energy which is proportional to the square of the speed. So if I can double my strength hence work and hence output energy I will become sqrt(2)=1.41x i.e. ~40% faster in completing said task provided my body mass remained the same. Sounds about right to me!

As for your running example. Complete fallacy I am afraid. The world records for 100m (9.58 seconds) and 200m (19.19 seconds) are held by the same person (Usain Bolt) and the speeds are almost identical. We also know that Michael Johnson did the 200m in 19.32s and 400m in 43.18s. And the same goes for Kenenisa Bekele who run the 5000m in 12:37.35 and the 10000m in 26:17.53 that is just 4% difference in speeds. He did so by running at 96% of his 5000m speed. He didn't need to halve his speed to run twice the distance yet in your example you claimed that it is not possible to run twice the distance if you halve your speed. What is ridiculous now, hah?

In fact if you want to obtain a lower limit estimate that would be the one of using the same amount of energy. Given that (I)air resistance is proportional to the the square of the speed and hence the power (which is the product of the driving force with speed) is proportional to the cube of the speed and (ii)since power is energy per unit time and energy (or work) is proportional to the distance, if I am going to use the same amount of energy over a 2x larger distance the power needs to be halved and the speed reduced to 1/cube root of 2. i.e. run at 79% of the speed I ran the half distance.

[TheMikado]

^ Hold on, are you seriously proposing that the KK multiplier increases linearly based on the character's base power levels? I think that theory is pretty ridiculous when we know that KK results in a strain on the body and being 11x stronger only really means his body if more readily available to handle it. Power and endurance have a small correlation but that are FAR FAR from 1:1 and the correlation diminishes the farther you go in either direction .

Not sure if you understood me correctly. The show made it very clear that by having Goku increasing his power level he could increase his KK maximum endurance. Not by 1:1 ratio. In particular we know that by increasing his power level 11-fold Goku could increase his KK max endurance 2.5-fold. That is a ratio of 4.4:1.

Yet when Goku subsequently increased his power level 33-fold stronger (an increase that was 3x bigger than before) while you would expect this endurance to increase 7.5-fold (or at least in that ballpark) it instead increased just 2-fold. That is an even smaller increase than the one he had when he previously increased his power level just 11-fold (an increase that is 1/3 compared to his 33-fold increase).

For example being able to bicep curl x2 weight than before does not mean I should be able to necessarily do 1/2 weight twice as many times. It sounds even more ridiculous if you put it in running terms. I can run a 400 yard dash very quickly, so if I'm running half as fast I should be able to run 800 yards easily...

These examples are irrelevant. You try to assert human limitations as counterexamples when we are talking about characters who are already performing superhuman feats. As I said we saw Goku increasing his endurance 2.5fold for an 11fold increase in base power. That is actual information from the show.

Besides it is all about energies anyway. If I can lift twice the weight then I am doing twice the work. Work is equal to the change in kinetic energy which is proportional to the square of the speed. So if I can double my strength hence work and hence output energy I will become sqrt(2)=1.41x i.e. ~40% faster in completing said task. Sounds about right to me!

As for your running example. Complete fallacy I am afraid. The world records for 100m (9.58 seconds) and 200m (19.19 seconds) are held by the same person (Usain Bolt) and the speeds are almost identical. We also know that Michael Johnson did the 200m in 19.32s and 400m in 43.18s. And the same goes for Kenenisa Bekele who run the 5000m in 12:37.35 and the 10000m in 26:17.53 that is just 4% difference in speeds. He didn't even need to halve his speed to run twice the distance.

In fact if you want to obtain a lower limit estimate that would be the one of using the same amount of energy. Given that (I)air resistance is proportional to the the square of the speed and hence the power (which is the product of the driving force with speed) is proportional to the cube of the speed and (ii)since power is energy per unit time and energy (or work) is proportional to the distance, if I am going to use the same amount of energy over a 2x larger distance the power needs to be halved and the speed reduced to 1/cube root of 2. i.e. run at 79% of the speed I ran the half distance.

Wow, you just completely proved my point though you are assuming a constant throughout which is a core fallacy.
Using your same example Usain Bolt, running the 10000m WOULD NOT SCALE LINEARLY. Just as Kenensia Bekele running the 10000m DOES NOT SCALE LINEARLY. Its not all "just energy" only people who have literally never performed physical movement in their lives would assume that these things scale linearly. If we used your method Usain Bolt should be able to literally run the 10000m in HALF the time it took the world fastest distance runner to do so. Your equations have no measure for exhaustion or strain which is the PRIMARY REASON for kaioken exhausion and limited use. It is not an energy equation, it's a physical endurance exercise. While the capability to exert more force/withstand force will result in gains in physical endurance it is NOT linear and is not expected to increase at the same rate.

It's so weird that this seems to be a difficult concept to understand.

[Speedster]

Wow, you just completely proved my point though you are assuming a constant throughout which is a core fallacy. Your equations have no measure for exhaustion or strain which is the PRIMARY REASON for kaioken exhausion and limited use. It is not an energy equation, it's a physical endurance exercise. While the capability to exert more force/withstand force will result in gains in physical endurance it is NOT linear and is not expected to increase at the same rate.

It's so weird that this seems to be a difficult concept to understand.

No I just fully disproved it. There is only one constant in all this. And that is the maximum power (energy per unit time) the human body can output. Everything else is derived from there.

[TheMikado]

Wow, you just completely proved my point though you are assuming a constant throughout which is a core fallacy. Your equations have no measure for exhaustion or strain which is the PRIMARY REASON for kaioken exhausion and limited use. It is not an energy equation, it's a physical endurance exercise. While the capability to exert more force/withstand force will result in gains in physical endurance it is NOT linear and is not expected to increase at the same rate.

It's so weird that this seems to be a difficult concept to understand.

No I just fully disproved it. There is only one constant in all this. And that is the maximum power (energy per unit time) the human body can output. Everything else is derived from there.

But that's not how the human body works. You have joints, muscles, organs. All have exhaustion and wear which degrade performance unless specially trained for it. Lifting 100 pounds 10 times, does not automatically mean you can lift 1000 pounds once or 1 pound 1000 times.
I mean, only a literally robot would rationalize in this way. The maximum power (energy per unit time) degrades and is not linear. It's not a constant, never in biological history was that ever a constant. Goku, getting stronger does not mean his endurance immediately increase proportionally as well. They even address this with the SSJ Grade 3 form.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

What does Goku's zenkai and base folds have to do with the initial conversation at hand? I thought we were discussing whether or not Kaioken was a multiplier in the first place, or whether SSJ is 50x, 30x or 10x?

Whether Goku is in the thousands or millions in power level, Kaioken doesn't just suddenly become a weak technique. Are you suggesting that with a base of 3,000,000 a 10x KK only doubles or triples ones strength (or only adds thousands per level)? I didn't quite understand everything Speedster was trying to say

If Kaioken made far fewer contributions to Goku's base at higher power levels, literally everything Frieza said on Namek was a lie then. And more characters are liars in DBZ than we thought.

[TheMikado]

What does Goku's zenkai and base folds have to do with the initial conversation at hand? I thought we were discussing whether or not Kaioken was a multiplier in the first place, or whether SSJ is 50x, 30x or 10x?

Whether Goku is in the thousands or millions in power level, Kaioken doesn't just suddenly become a weak technique. Are you suggesting that with a base of 3,000,000 a 10x KK only doubles or triples ones strength? I didn't quite understand everything Speedster was trying to say

Its really weird.. Basically... and I'm guess at this.. He feels that the improvement to Goku's base power should dictate how much more of a Kaioken multiplier Goku should be able to handle. i.e. if his base power increases by 11 fold, then his Kaioken multiplier should increase by 2.5 fold and should always consistently track at that same ratio.

My argument is that expecting kaioken multiplier increases at all just because he got stronger is not accurate as it is an endurance issue not a power issue. Even if you at 10x stronger now a kaioken x10 will still wear you out, although it may make a kaioken x15/20 easier to handle its not guaranteed and certainly doesn't make sense to get upset because he can't pull a Kaioken x25 now...

Again this is just my interpretation of it though.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

What does Goku's zenkai and base folds have to do with the initial conversation at hand? I thought we were discussing whether or not Kaioken was a multiplier in the first place, or whether SSJ is 50x, 30x or 10x?

Whether Goku is in the thousands or millions in power level, Kaioken doesn't just suddenly become a weak technique. Are you suggesting that with a base of 3,000,000 a 10x KK only doubles or triples ones strength? I didn't quite understand everything Speedster was trying to say

Its really weird.. Basically... and I'm guess at this.. He feels that the improvement to Goku's base power should dictate how much more of a Kaioken multiplier Goku should be able to handle. i.e. if his base power increases by 11 fold, then his Kaioken multiplier should increase by 2.5 fold and should always consistently track at that same ratio.

My argument is that expecting kaioken multiplier increases at all just because he got stronger is not accurate as it is an endurance issue not a power issue. Even if you at 10x stronger now a kaioken x10 will still wear you out, although it may make a kaioken x15/20 easier to handle its not guaranteed and certainly doesn't make sense to get upset because he can't pull a Kaioken x25 now...

Again this is just my interpretation of it though.

Goku was using Kaioken on his way to Namek and probably used multiple levels of it (and higher than on Earth) so he had to experience more levels of Kaioken to endure greater amounts of power amplification. I was just reminded of something just now, like how Gohan in the RoSaT couldn't handle 10x gravity even though he's probably in the millions in power level already. Gohan has never done gravity training to begin with, so this is new to him at that point. Goku on the other hand, underwent 100x gravity when he was much weaker than the Gohan in the RoSaT.

With this logic, you can't throw Kaioken onto Gohan and expect him to output a KKx20 very easily, it'll probably kill him at 5x or 10x because he's never used it before.

[TheMikado]

^ That's my exact point. Dragonball Z did a good job of explaining that power levels and Ki did not translate directly into skills and endurance and definitely not on a linear scale. Other examples include SSJ Goten not knowing how to fly, etc. It could be argued that Goku may have been able to achieve SSJ easier due to his experience with power amplification and multipliers.

[Speedster]

But that's not how the human body works. You have joints, muscles, organs. I mean, only a literally robot would rationalize in this way. The maximum power (energy per unit time) degrades and is not linear. It's not a constant, never in biological history was that ever a constant.

No. That is EXACTLY how the body works. All these internal organs, joints, muscles, etc need energy. You feel tired because you run out of energy. And the limitations are already factored in the max output power (energy output per unit time) the human body can produce. I already put the limit there. Besides Goku mostly used the Kaioken top multipliers as a burst move only.

unless specially trained for it

At the start of DB when Goku's speed was measured (8.5s for 100m) it was comparable to that of a dinosaur he was chasing him (~11-12m/s). Then he was shown being chased by a shark. The speed ratio of these two (dinosaur and shark) is 5:1. This is the same as the ratio between the world records in swimming and sprinting. So given a certain power level Goku is shown to be conditioned to be the best swimmer and the best runner and in general the show gives us little doubt about whether Goku is best conditioned for a particular physical act. Goku didn't even attempt a single Kaioken while in the spaceship. He just focused to get stronger. Yet by the end he was confident about enduring KKx10 just by the mere fact he increased his power level.

Anyway the point I am making is this. Power levels are non-linear but on top of this to what they actually translate is constantly changing within different numerical ranges. From highly non-linear they became far less non-linear in the thousands range and actual increases in strength were intended to be a closer to those power level multipliers. For example doubling your power level might had meant increasing your strength and speed by 4x. Then the scale changed and doubling your power level might had meant 20x. Thus it became harder to double your power level or equivalently doubling your power level meant a more significant actual increase. Kaioken might had been a direct multiplier in the thousands scale only and in actual strength terms all KKx2 does is to increase the actual strength by 4x. But if the scale changed this 4x in actual strength does not result to doubling the power level but just increasing it by 1.2x.

[TheMikado]

^ can someone else break this down for me as this is not making any sense.

[Speedster]

^ can someone else break this down for me as this is not making any sense.

OK let me try to make it clearer and after that you may consider the help of someone else ...

We know that the actual strength (y axis) and power levels (x axis) are non-linearly related. However on top of this there is proof that whatever function y=f(x) relates these 2 quantities it is also piecewise. Piecewise means that the function is different within different ranges. We know for a fact that the function governing the sub-1000 range is different from the one in the 1000s. So what stops a further change for the 1million to 1 billion range? That is important because if KK had a constant effect on y (actual strength) it would mean that the effect of KK on x (the power level) would change accordingly and stop being a direct multiplication.

But this would be a completely unsubstantiated speculation if there was absolutely zero evidence to support that there was indeed a yet another change of the function for the millions' range. But there is some evidence. Goku’s top KK multiplier did not increase numerically by the factor we expected it to be. In other words … did Goku’s endurance actually not increase by 7.5x or did it increase but just appeared that it increased only by 2x because in the millions' range the scale had changed?

[TheMikado]

^ The reason your'e not making any sense is that your threshold is completely arbitrary.
i,e, your equation provides no logarithmic/mathematical reason for a having a change from the sub 1000s scale to the levels above it and then the next change in scale to occur at 1 million and 1 billion mark.

In other words, you are arbitrary applying a threshold and change in scale. Your entire argument is based on power levels not scaling linearly to strength and then further extending that logic to a very specific, character specific technique for Kaioken where you make the claim that as a characters power level scales up the effective multiplier is actually reduced, but there is absolutely Zero evidence that this applies to kaioken. You actually work backwards from your conclusion but saying that higher power levels allow higher kaioken levels because the effective multiplier is lower, but the premise you base it on is factually flawed. It make ZERO sense to draw that conclusion and I believe you would be hard pressed to even find one member on this board who agrees.

You are actually proposing two separate theories and trying to propose one to support the other which is why your argument is not coming through.

Argument 1# As power levels rise, Kaioken' effective multiplier becomes lower.
Argument 2# As power levels rise, Goku must increase the total/Applied multiplier to increase the effective multiplier of kaioken

Back to the original argument of the SSJ multiplier. I think it is reasonable to believe that as power levels increase the SSJ multiplier decreases. The series even seems to provide evidence for this as SSJ seems to force-ably bring out latent power rather then achieving new power heights. Gohan being a great example of this, his Ultimate form was he bringing out his maximum potential, something the SSJ form seem to do temporarily and with great strain. Think of it as an environmental trigger/adrenaline rush as they get closer to their maximum, the boost become less. The problem you are stating is that Kaioken operates the same and that's a pretty huge assumption to make.
You keep trying to use argument #1 as fact to prove argument #2 but you have yet to prove that argument #1 is actually fact.

[Speedster]

^You entirely misunderstood and utterly changed the premises of my argument. You also seem to lack some knowledge regarding the physics of some feats which I thought you had. Apparently I overestimated what you know. I wrote a detailed response explaining everything but unfortunately when I clicked to post it for some reason I was logged out and it got lost! Time limit? Anyway I won't bother to compose it again. Hopefully others got the point I was making from my earlier posts. If not then so be it.

[TheMikado]

^You entirely misunderstood and utterly changed the premises of my argument. You also seem to lack some knowledge regarding the physics of some feats which I thought you had. Apparently I overestimated what you know. I wrote a detailed response explaining everything but unfortunately when I clicked to post it for some reason I was logged out and it got lost! Time limit? Anyway I won't bother to compose it again. Hopefully others got the point I was making from my earlier posts. If not then so be it.

Wait are you actually trying to have a serious discussion on physics and their feats in a series where the protagonist was strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence?????

Literally no one else is commenting on your "well thought out argument" which means one of several possibilities.

1) I'm the only idiot on this forum who doesnt get it
2) literally no one else on this forum agrees with you and your argument is very likely invalid and not nearly as well reasoned as you believe and what ever this supposedly knowledge I lack doesn't actual exist and is simply the ramblings of someone's internal head canon bordering on Beautiful Mind level insanity and paranoia
3) you possess a higher understanding of Dragonball Universe physics that even the creator of said universe does not even possess.

Which of those three do you think it is??

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Wait are you actually trying to have a serious discussion on physics and their feats in a series where the protagonist was strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence?????

And you are trying give numerical values and mathematical explanations to a show that doesn´t follow real physic logics (and that gives a s*** about power levels)??

[TheMikado]

Wait are you actually trying to have a serious discussion on physics and their feats in a series where the protagonist was strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence?????

And you are trying give numerical values and mathematical explanations to a show that doesn´t follow real physic logics (and that gives a s*** about power levels)??

Que?