Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
kei17 wrote:You know, even Toriyama is pissed off by Super. I can't even find anything good in it.
That's one of the really unfortunate aspects of the whole thing -- Toriyama's providing plots I'd have been happy to follow as part of the manga, or in general just handled by him, but something is terribly lost when it passes through Toei's animation and scripting in such a rushed manner.
kei17 wrote:
You know, even Toriyama is pissed off by Super
Really? I heard he wasn't a fan of the animation, but haven't heard anything along the lines of that.
I can't tell you the source because it's insider information, but he surely got turned off and reluctant to keep being involved with Super, so they had to provide him with some basic ideas for the plot of the new Goku Black arc.
Insider's information? Are you giving away stock market tips that you can't disclose? Like, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there is NOTHING out there to make the assumption that Toriyama is pissed off by Super.
Big Green: Do whateveryoulike, Ghos
Broly: haha He calls me a goohst, but IMMMD DA DEVVVVAAALLL! RAHAHAHAHA!
-----
Trunks: "Dhe computer selffishy intesnafiy dosuementos."
Android 13: Yum Boy
-----
Vegeta: The Legendary Warrior of SpaZe.
That's precisely why it's "insider information" - the fact that you can't personally corroborate it because you don't have access to the same independent sources.
You can either choose to trust Kei based on his past contributions, or you can not. I don't really think it's any skin off his back either way.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: April 2026 |] ::
You can choose not to believe him, of course, but to add some weight to the subject: Kei told me two things prior to the information going public, and they both turned out to be true. Both of them pertained to Toriyama's thoughts and Super's production. I trust what he says.
If Toriyama or someone in a similar position like Oda got mad enough at a studio, could they get the anime cancelled due to them being the manga's creators ?
successoroffate wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there is NOTHING out there to make the assumption that Toriyama is pissed off by Super.
A few months ago he said he was complaining to them about it's quality and thanks to Kei (who's been reliable in the past for info) we now know it's more than little complains.
For him to consider going back into retirement or maybe just telling his stories through Toyotaro's manga is a really bad sign for Super so let's hope they fix what he doesn't like.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
I think OP should have made an explanation of what/she defines as "tarnishing" the brand. So far the answers seens to me like the classic I don't like this thing they're doing/that's happening, therefore it is "hurting" the brand.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.
Ajay wrote:You can choose not to believe him, of course, but to add some weight to the subject: Kei told me two things prior to the information going public, and they both turned out to be true. Both of them pertained to Toriyama's thoughts and Super's production. I trust what he says.
That all may be true, but it rubs me the wrong way when people give that sort of information to people they shouldn't.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
sintzu wrote:If Toriyama or someone in a similar position like Oda got mad enough at a studio, could they get the anime cancelled due to them being the manga's creators ?
Nope. Toriyama and Oda don't have that much power. If anything, the best/worst they can do is publicly say they don't support the show, but it won't stop Toei from producing it and making money off of it.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
No, comic authors can do real damage. In Shirobako's second cour the series Musani is working on is heavily delayed because the original author does not like the character designs.
kei17 wrote:
You know, even Toriyama is pissed off by Super
Really? I heard he wasn't a fan of the animation, but haven't heard anything along the lines of that.
I can't tell you the source because it's insider information, but he surely got turned off and reluctant to keep being involved with Super, so they had to provide him with some basic ideas for the plot of the new Goku Black arc.
Damn I didn't think it was that bad. I'm not entirely that surprised though.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
kei17 wrote:
You know, even Toriyama is pissed off by Super
Really? I heard he wasn't a fan of the animation, but haven't heard anything along the lines of that.
I can't tell you the source because it's insider information, but he surely got turned off and reluctant to keep being involved with Super, so they had to provide him with some basic ideas for the plot of the new Goku Black arc.
Holy shit. Toriyama had recently became more engrossed in Dragon Ball than he has in over 20 years, and now Toei's handling of Super seems to be burning him out again.
Damn.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:Holy shit. Toriyama had recently became more engrossed in Dragon Ball than he has in over 20 years, and now Toei's handling of Super seems to be burning him out again.
Damn.
A quote of Toriyama's that will never leave my mind is something he said in an interview about the One Piece/Dragon Ball cross-over manga, in which he said, "Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again." I think he has felt burned out for a while, unfortunately.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Holy shit. Toriyama had recently became more engrossed in Dragon Ball than he has in over 20 years, and now Toei's handling of Super seems to be burning him out again.
Damn.
The manga is one of the most influential in Japan and Z is one of the most popular beloved anime in the world so if going from that to Super is bothering us then it's probably driving him insane.
If he walks away which I hope he doesn't then I don't think it'll end well for Toei.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lord Beerus wrote:Holy shit. Toriyama had recently became more engrossed in Dragon Ball than he has in over 20 years, and now Toei's handling of Super seems to be burning him out again.
Damn.
A quote of Toriyama's that will never leave my mind is something he said in an interview about the One Piece/Dragon Ball cross-over manga, in which he said, "Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again." I think he has felt burned out for a while, unfortunately.
He said that? Wow. That is such a heartbreakingly, awesome statement that carries so much truth and weight about in regards to being a mangaka. It's one of the best worst jobs in the imaginable, and Toriyama summed up that notion beautifully
Instant sig.
EDIT: Sigged the qoute
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
sintzu wrote:If Toriyama or someone in a similar position like Oda got mad enough at a studio, could they get the anime cancelled due to them being the manga's creators ?
Nope. Toriyama and Oda don't have that much power. If anything, the best/worst they can do is publicly say they don't support the show, but it won't stop Toei from producing it and making money off of it.
So it would be GT all over again ( and this is coming from a GT fan) like: "You don't want to do keep writing DB? Don't worry, we don't need you, we'll do our own thing and cash out."
Back to the thing I said. You're right, I choose not to believe the rumor and for one reason only... Toriyama sounded "excited" when he was talking about the future of Super (Back when he hinted at a future character returning and and the new evil guy having white hair which, I think it's on the main website. The interview that was moderated by Toyotaro, or at least he was asking the questions).
Big Green: Do whateveryoulike, Ghos
Broly: haha He calls me a goohst, but IMMMD DA DEVVVVAAALLL! RAHAHAHAHA!
-----
Trunks: "Dhe computer selffishy intesnafiy dosuementos."
Android 13: Yum Boy
-----
Vegeta: The Legendary Warrior of SpaZe.
Shit I'm really feeling bad for Tori he decide to come back on new db content yet has to deal with toei's fuckery. I don't want him feel like he made a mistake coming back.
successoroffate wrote:
So it would be GT all over again like: "You don't want to do keep writing DB? Don't worry, we don't need you, we'll do our own thing and cash out."
Not exactly, when GT was made he gave them his OK to do what they wanted but that won't be the case now.
He's made it clear in recent comments that he's proud of his franchise and doesn't want to let it go down hill again so if they try to ignore him and do what they want then he'll more than likely go complain to Shueisha about them and if they can't do anything then he could take them to court and try to stop it's production.
I'm not sure if he'd be able to win something like that but the news of it going on will make the other companies involved including Shueisha very nervous about their sales which might get them to side with him.
If that doesn't work he could go around talking to media outlets about it and use them to ask fans to not support it anymore which would like the court case cause the big companies involved to side with him and possibly other high mangaka like Oda and Kishimoto.
I personally don't think Toei would let it get anywhere close to that but if by any small chance they do then that's what will likely happen.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lord Beerus wrote:Holy shit. Toriyama had recently became more engrossed in Dragon Ball than he has in over 20 years, and now Toei's handling of Super seems to be burning him out again.
Damn.
A quote of Toriyama's that will never leave my mind is something he said in an interview about the One Piece/Dragon Ball cross-over manga, in which he said, "Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again." I think he has felt burned out for a while, unfortunately.
Even though it’s called a “collaboration”, Oda-kun did almost everything, including the story. I just drew my own characters. This kind of work sure is nice~. I was able to really enjoy drawing it.
kei17 wrote:I'm just referring to Toei's recent creations as a whole. GT was a huge, probably the biggest disaster, but they had done nothing for a decade since then and the JSAT special wasn't half bad. It's a different story.
Just curious whats bad about super in your opinion?
Retelling the latest movies for some incomprehensible reason
Lame and cheesy stories
Crappy animation
No use of the iconic sound effects
The so-called "Toei Goku" that I hate
You know, even Toriyama is pissed off by Super. I can't even find anything good in it.
I'm curious. Have you abandoned the Super series yet? Manga and anime. Or have you been following along this whole time?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
She/Her 
