fadeddreams5 wrote:Anyone who agrees with Gohan being a family man in the background who doesn't train, fight, or display his hidden powers, but embarrassingly gets his ass whupped when he has to battle, were never fans of the character to begin with.
That's some good assumptions. And why does this mean I can't be a fan of him?
Honestly, I didn't even read your post until after I wrote that. That was meant to be a general comment.
But I maintain, how can you be a fan of a character when you clearly want him sidelined or pathetically beaten up? This isn't your average Krillin or Yamcha. It's a character who NEVER trained, but still possessed the hidden strength to hurt Raditz, someone Goku and Piccolo (the strongest fighters on the planet at the time) could not.
And that's my main gripe. People use the training excuse so much to justify Gohan's current status, but in an ideal story, he wouldn't NEED to train at all to be the strongest fighter. He could still be a *insert whatever he does for a living here* without also being a scrub. He can still be the same character who looked Super Buu square in the eyes or made Cell regurgitate (i.e. stood up to obstacles), while also being the nerdy family man. These things are not mutually exclusive. It all comes down to the story and writing, which is why it baffles me when people state they like what they've turned Gohan into, yet claim they're fans of the character.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Pan is the new Gohan, who in the DBZ ending actually wants to be a fighter. It was a dag on shame Goku chose to train and pass down his teachings to a total stranger in Uub, over his own granddaughter who has massive potential. Though I wonder if Goku had something to do with Uub's existence? (Perhaps wished for it off screen or something like that) I know he technically asked for Kid Buu to come back as a good guy just before he blew him up, but it doesn't make sense for Buu to come back as a human. I still wrestle with the understanding there, but anyway Goku should have trained Pan.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Anyone who agrees with Gohan being a family man in the background who doesn't train, fight, or display his hidden powers, but embarrassingly gets his ass whupped when he has to battle, were never fans of the character to begin with.
That's some good assumptions. And why does this mean I can't be a fan of him?
Honestly, I didn't even read your post until after I wrote that. That was meant to be a general comment.
But I maintain, how can you be a fan of a character when you clearly want him sidelined or pathetically beaten up? This isn't your average Krillin or Yamcha. It's a character who NEVER trained, but still possessed the hidden strength to hurt Raditz, someone Goku and Piccolo (the strongest fighters on the planet at the time) could not.
And that's my main gripe. People use the training excuse so much to justify Gohan's current status, but in an ideal story, he wouldn't NEED to train at all to be the strongest fighter. He could still be a *insert whatever he does for a living here* without also being a scrub. He can still be the same character who looked Super Buu square in the eyes or made Cell regurgitate (i.e. stood up to obstacles), while also being the nerdy family man. These things are not mutually exclusive. It all comes down to the story and writing, which is why it baffles me when people state they like what they've turned Gohan into, yet claim they're fans of the character.
So, I can't be a fan of a character... If I'm okay with him getting his ass kicked a lot of the time? I dont like Gohan for his power, I like him because his concept, his personality and the way he interacts with people. His highschool episode were pretty enjyable for me, his days as the Great Saiyaman were hiarious and his relationship with Videl was kind of heartwarming.
And jsut because he could possiably till be a powerhouse without deserting most of his life style, doesn't really mean he should. I enjoy his character when he's not fighting, and I maintain that this was the natural progression for his character. nd your assumption that I cannot be a fan of his character is completly headscratching to me.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Anyone who agrees with Gohan being a family man in the background who doesn't train, fight, or display his hidden powers, but embarrassingly gets his ass whupped when he has to battle, were never fans of the character to begin with.
This is an unfortunate post, you and nobody has the right to say what other people are or aren't based on personal opinions.
I've already gone about the problem with Gohan. Like with Goten and Trunks, they have absolutely nothing for him. They do nothing with him. Nothing but superfluous things. If they want to do the whole family man angle, then they need to stick to their guns. Quit having him fight. Keep things off world. Or in the new arc keep it in the future timeline. This seems to be the best course of action because they don't really care about what he does.
If they do, then flesh out more what he's going for, what he does, and what it means to his surroundings. What job does he have? Why is it important? What benefit does it have to the supporting cast in a non fighting role? The thing is, we don't have any of that besides the second reason. If you want him in a non fighting role, he needs a job to do that can help. He's not strong enough to fight, and he's not smart enough to invent things like Bulma. So he's got nothing. His story is pointless, and him being off screen as we can see, literally means nothing. He could remain off screen for good and we wouldn't lose anything. That's how unimportant Gohan, his family, and his job are.
As a fighter he has an easy way back, as well as plenty of motivation. What makes him so interesting in this kind of role, is that he's not a fighter at heart. He's no warrior. He has no interest in becoming the next greatest thing. But that's what makes him perfect. Everyone else wants to be the best. Everyone else has the same shallow motivation. Gohan does not. That alone brings up more possibility than another character who wants to be the best, do nothing but fight, and eat a lot of food. He's already started development for this role, but it's possibly as forgone as Krillin's development was.
Let's be honest, the series is about fighting. It's not about being a family man. Being a family man means little to the series. Hence all the top characters, do not do much of that. However, the family man angle is dripping with possibilities. How much they mean to Gohan, and just how much risk Goku and Vegeta will put them in, oozes with conflict. While I don't want something like Gohan hates them, it'd be amazing if he sees how careless they really are. Like how Gohan was so happy to see his family alive and well, and took the first steps, he should be more prepared now. Do we really need another character who wants all the same things Goku and Vegeta do? Why not have more people who want something more? Fight for other reasons.
Either way of his role makes sense, but you tell me what's more interesting? A character who's forgone fighting, who helps however he can, but is overall pretty useless. Or a character who makes time to protect his family, wants to ensure their future, and struggles with the the reality he wants, and the future he wants to preserve for them. I think the latter is far more interesting.
Gohan's current shtick is so boring, that literally Goten and Trunks, two people who hardly have a character at all, are worth more to the current series than he is. Goten and Trunks farting about is worth more screen time than anything Gohan does now. That's how much they care for what he does. They'd rather entrust their time to shenanigans, instead of the Gohan household family life. What does that say about where the interest lies?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Either way of his role makes sense, but you tell me what's more interesting? A character who's forgone fighting, who helps however he can, but is overall pretty useless. Or a character who makes time to protect his family, wants to ensure their future, and struggles with the the reality he wants, and the future he wants to preserve for them. I think the latter is far more interesting.
I'm more for the first.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Either way of his role makes sense, but you tell me what's more interesting? A character who's forgone fighting, who helps however he can, but is overall pretty useless. Or a character who makes time to protect his family, wants to ensure their future, and struggles with the the reality he wants, and the future he wants to preserve for them. I think the latter is far more interesting.
I'm more for the first.
Fair enough. Can't see how being completely inconsequential and beneath even Goten and Trunks' doing fuck all, is a better role. But that's just merely where I disagree. Like I said if we're going the retired route, you either slowly phase the character out like Lunch, or you give that role more meaning to the story. Other wise you basically are just filler for run time and nothing else.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kanassa wrote:
So, I can't be a fan of a character... If I'm okay with him getting his ass kicked a lot of the time? I dont like Gohan for his power, I like him because his concept, his personality and the way he interacts with people. His highschool episode were pretty enjyable for me, his days as the Great Saiyaman were hiarious and his relationship with Videl was kind of heartwarming.
But that's just it, Super's Gohan isn't displaying any of this either. He's literally either off-screen or studying. You could replace him with a cardboard cutout, and you could not tell the different.
And jsut because he could possiably till be a powerhouse without deserting most of his life style, doesn't really mean he should.
He should. If the story calls for it. Thing is, it never will, which is the problem.
I enjoy his character when he's not fighting, and I maintain that this was the natural progression for his character. nd your assumption that I cannot be a fan of his character is completly headscratching to me.
It's a natural progression of his character to focus on his job and family. However, that's not an excuse for not utilizing the character at all or making him a punching bag. There are so many ways to display this progression in a respectable way.
And when I wrote that, I didn't see your post. I was under the assumption people who accept this change of character were never fans of him to begin with. I've seen people openly admit that in this forum. I'm sorry, but it's a little headscratching that you can be a fan of a character, but you don't want to see that character shine in literally any way; you'd prefer the series to continue disrespecting him or keeping him off-screen. I feel like it's the same case of "real life syndrome" I see elsewhere, where people "are happy for Gohan" for attaining a good life. **** that! He's a fictional character, here to entertain us, not your high school buddy! Throw him into major conflict, have a monster like Buu eat his family, make him feel guilt for relying on daddy all the time. I'm here for Dragon Ball, not The Life and Times of Goku and Friends.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
fadeddreams5 wrote:I'm sorry, but it's a little headscratching that you can be a fan of a character, but you don't want to see that character shine in literally any way; you'd prefer the series to continue disrespecting him or keeping him off-screen. I feel like it's the same case of "real life syndrome" I see elsewhere, where people "are happy for Gohan" for attaining a good life. **** that! He's a fictional character, here to entertain us, not your high school buddy! Throw him into major conflict, have a monster like Buu eat his family, make him feel guilt for relying on daddy all the time. I'm here for Dragon Ball, not The Life and Times of Goku and Friends.
People are fans for different reasons. I personally can't really understand why anyone would want someone to essentially do nothing. I'd love for even Oolong to be important somehow, if the story can make it work in a good way. I'd be down for Chi Chi being really important, if the story can make it work in a good way. And I mean huge important roles. I know not everyone can get those, but I want more for people rather than less.
As I pointed out, Goten and Trunks literally doing nothing but fart about is worth more screen time than anything Gohan does. Literally two characters who hardly have character are worth more to show off as they both have much more screen time than Gohan does. So they must not really find what Gohan does interesting at all if he's overshadowed by those two. That, or the market is hardly interested in what Gohan does, so they don't show him off very much.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I was glad to see him featured in the flashback during this week's episode along with Trunks mentioning allies in the past and not Goku/Vegeta specifically like the pre-release summaries had suggested.
I don't mind him not fighting tbh, what I do want is for Toei to at least show us Cameo appearances from time to time so we know what he gets up to. In GT, when he fought with his suit, I must admit, it looked very nice.
The latest ep once again shows how useless Gohan is imo. Back in the Golden Frieza arc, Gohan had to strain himself to power up enough for Goku to sense him and teleport to earth. (I liked the movie explanation behind Goku teleporting to earth much better by the way) Gohan even passed out in doing so, and yet in DBS ep 48, Kid Trunks simply powers up without problem and Goku is able to lock on just like that. Now you can easily explain this by Goku becoming stronger and being able to sense weaker power levels and what not. Nonetheless, this just shows how useless Gohan is as a character now.
Shinomori wrote:The latest ep once again shows how useless Gohan is imo. Back in the Golden Frieza arc, Gohan had to strain himself to power up enough for Goku to sense him and teleport to earth. (I liked the movie explanation behind Goku teleporting to earth much better by the way) Gohan even passed out in doing so, and yet in DBS ep 48, Kid Trunks simply powers up without problem and Goku is able to lock on just like that. Now you can easily explain this by Goku becoming stronger and being able to sense weaker power levels and what not. Nonetheless, this just shows how useless Gohan is as a character now.
Gohan and Gotenks are useless... Even Kid Trunks alone is more of a help
Shinomori wrote:The latest ep once again shows how useless Gohan is imo. Back in the Golden Frieza arc, Gohan had to strain himself to power up enough for Goku to sense him and teleport to earth. (I liked the movie explanation behind Goku teleporting to earth much better by the way) Gohan even passed out in doing so, and yet in DBS ep 48, Kid Trunks simply powers up without problem and Goku is able to lock on just like that. Now you can easily explain this by Goku becoming stronger and being able to sense weaker power levels and what not. Nonetheless, this just shows how useless Gohan is as a character now.
Are you forgetting that Gohan was shot full of holes and nearly died minutes earlier? Why are you comparing that to 100% fresh Trunks?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Shinomori wrote:The latest ep once again shows how useless Gohan is imo. Back in the Golden Frieza arc, Gohan had to strain himself to power up enough for Goku to sense him and teleport to earth. (I liked the movie explanation behind Goku teleporting to earth much better by the way) Gohan even passed out in doing so, and yet in DBS ep 48, Kid Trunks simply powers up without problem and Goku is able to lock on just like that. Now you can easily explain this by Goku becoming stronger and being able to sense weaker power levels and what not. Nonetheless, this just shows how useless Gohan is as a character now.
Lol. Why are you overthinking everything? Don't you think after a while it would be easier for Goku to sense where Earth is, and you don't need as high of a power as before to lock on to?
Shinomori wrote:The latest ep once again shows how useless Gohan is imo. Back in the Golden Frieza arc, Gohan had to strain himself to power up enough for Goku to sense him and teleport to earth. (I liked the movie explanation behind Goku teleporting to earth much better by the way) Gohan even passed out in doing so, and yet in DBS ep 48, Kid Trunks simply powers up without problem and Goku is able to lock on just like that. Now you can easily explain this by Goku becoming stronger and being able to sense weaker power levels and what not. Nonetheless, this just shows how useless Gohan is as a character now.
Lol. Why are you overthinking everything? Don't you think after a while it would be easier for Goku to sense where Earth is, and you don't need as high a power as before to lock on to?
Well Gohan was obviously thinking about his meeting while powering up and couldn't reach his full power level. Duh
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