Your Problem(s) with DragonBall Super

[sintzu]

DBSuper is a fictional world story, it has no need of following real world logic of X age = Y body appearence and is neither obligated to.

It does because what came before it did.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

DBSuper is a fictional world story, it has no need of following real world logic of X age = Y body appearence and is neither obligated to.

It does because what came before it did.

This 2 tropes exist.

[LightBing]

DBSuper is a fictional world story, it has no need of following real world logic of X age = Y body appearence and is neither obligated to.

It does because what came before it did.

If you go by that line, then the character appearances are consistent. The kids are Saiyans, Goku looked like that until he was much older. Kuririn was also very short when he was 14 years old. I have no problem with the Saiyans, Marron does bother me a little because even with his father genetics, toddlers grow at a very decent rate.
I know Mirai Trunks was taller, but present Trunks doesn't have to follow the same path. Gohan had a tail and the kids don't have one.

[namekiansaiyan]

A bit late to party. Before I give my contribution, I have to commend Li'l Lemmy for his effort. Honestly, I doubt it will matter much.
When the new arc shows any type of "weakness" the bashing will return in full force. And yes there's a difference between bashing and building a well formed criticism like this thread pretends, putting people into: "haters" and "white knight's" category is aggravating.

I was pretty disheartened with this part of the forum, when the negativism regarding the new arc was in full strength, people concluding it will suck because Black Goku is Tullece II, even without knowing anything about the arc and many more of this sort. I'm also including the unfortunately regular off-topic one liners. This forum become temporarily a place I didn't wanna be, which is sad since I hold it in very high esteem due to it's positive standards.

First I gotta say I'm very positive regarding it and it's continuous improvement even with the bad start. Ok, problems:

Lack of imagination/courage and relying on nostalgia:
Again and again the show has revisited various emblematic moments, instead of creating original content. Vegeta fight vs Magetta is one critical example, that Final Flash is a carbon copy from the Cell Arc.
Callbacks aren't bad, sometimes it can be very well done and highly enjoyable. This isn't the case here, there's an insistence on it which makes me think the writers are afraid of creating new content. Or prefer to play it safe and "recycle" the series since they know it works.
I hope the callbacks are far and spread apart. Let Super create it's own iconic moments!

Inconsistent and bad character portrayals:
Writer A the character acts this way, writer B it acts the opposite. I don't enjoy seeing character flip flop like this, in some causes there's barely an ounce of the true character as intended by Mr.Toriyama. Episode 42 is a case were Goku was awfully written, in this case to make a thin premise happen.

Contradictory Power information
I know some of you don't care about this but I do. I love the redundancy of putting a character a bit stronger than that one but weaker than the other guy, etc... Well, if I enjoy it, it's not redundant after all.
Super is creating inconsistencies at a ever growing rhythm, I liked them to at least build tiers that everyone could understand in wide strokes. It's the bare minimum.

There's a few other small/mid problems that I have, I won't prologue myself much longer or this post will become bigly( ). The awful scheduling, which resulted in bad animation has been apparently solved. It's not a problem anymore.

I still think that Piccolo should have faced Magetta and Piccolo should have gone giant so Piccolo and Magetta could have had some kind of wrestling match which would have been unique and interesting.

[Ajay]

I just don't understand why the animation, color, etc is so bad.
You'd think with modern technology and techniques it would be greater then the original dragon ball z.
One Punch Man, Fairy Tale, Tokyo Ghoul, Sword Art Online are all modern and new and have relatively really good animation, and art.
Do they know it'll sell regardless so we get an inferior production?
That's my biggest problem.

I suppose it's important to understand first of all that the modern advances in animation only really apply to the very final parts of the process in a large majority of Japanese animation. This primarily includes colouring and special effects, which have little to do with the general animation quality. The storyboards, backgrounds, and key animation themselves are still drawn by hand. At the end of the day, every advancement is only a new tool, and the quality of the output entirely depends on the hands behind them. There's no magical invention that automatically improves animation quality, I'm afraid. For further details about the animation process, I strongly suggest checking out this website's Production Guide.

Out of your examples, Fairy Tail is the only show that's comparable to Super. The production environment is very different for limited episode late-night shows (like One-Punch Man, Tokyo Ghoul etc) compared to a long-running series. A good schedule, proper pre-production, and talented staff are all essential in making sure a weekly TV show comes out to high quality standard. Unfortunately, Super's situation is one that has become a bit of a depressing talking-point in the animation community. I put together a ~5 minute video explaining the show's issues as concisely as possible. I hope it helps!

The simplest way I can put it is that Super was rushed into production in an attempt to ride the success of Resurrection F. It essentially had zero time for pre-production, and with very limited staff on hand, they only managed to finish up a few episodes before it debuted. The lack of a proper episode buffer meant that everything came crashing down in episode 5, and the show has been struggling ever since. Nowadays, Toei are throwing as much man-power at the show as they can in an attempt to combat the brutal schedule. Unfortunately, man-power does not equal talent, so this is more of a case of, "Can we actually get these episodes finished?", rather than "Can we improve them?"

Just as a side-note regarding the series' colour: while it may not necessarily lead to any positive changes (if any at all), the series' colour designer, Teppei Hotta, who has been handling the colours since Battle of Gods, was replaced by Yoshitaka Katō as of episode 47. He's been the colour coordinator up to this point (the person who ensures the colours are consistent between episodes), so it's not necessarily going to lead to any changes, but the possibility is there.

Super's probably not likely to change any time soon, unfortunately. It's not afforded the reset possibilities a la Sailor Moon Crystal. I imagine Toei will keep pulling off little tricks here and there to alleviate the schedule stress, but that's not going to change the lack of good animators working on the show.

(I guess you can take this post as my main problem with Super. Throw in the abysmal music and sound effects, and that's pretty much my answer set!)

[ChronoTwigger]

I just don't understand why the animation, color, etc is so bad.

You'd think with modern technology and techniques it would be greater then the original dragon ball z.

One Punch Man, Fairy Tale, Tokyo Ghoul, Sword Art Online are all modern and new and have relatively really good animation, and art.

Do they know it'll sell regardless so we get an inferior production?

That's my biggest problem.

Add a little, underrated masterpiece_ JoJo. Diamond is Unbreakable art now it's incredible compared to Super abstract muscle masses and changing proportions.

A NORMAL (not even key) frame of JoJo 4th series


Who draw tha Vegeta and Goku figures???.

[B]

JoJo's is exactly as rated as a thirty-year-old-and-still-running comic that got a big Western push only in the last ~5 years could be. It still had a pretty sizable cult following before the David Pro adaptation, too. This series creates a meme every week; "underrated" is not a term you can associate it with.

And, as others have pointed out with things like One-Punch Man, its production schedule is not comparable to Super's position as Sunday morning kids' fare.

[Ajay]

While Jojo certainly has beautiful keys (and yes, what you posted is a key), pay attention to how much of the show is actually animated. A large majority of its run time is made up of stills and digital trickery. It gets by on solid direction and excellent everything else. Its actual animation quality really isn't very high. It's really not a feasible route to take with a show like Dragon Ball, I'm afraid.

And well, as I already mentioned, it's a totally different type of show under totally different production environments. Not a particularly fair comparison.

[Hellspawn28]

Add a little, underrated masterpiece_ JoJo.

Jojo is not underrated. Jojo gets a lot of love even before the 2012 anime TV series existed. I've been a Jojo fan for nearly a decade and I remember a lot of people of Jojo enjoy back then too. I find it odd that most of the Western fandom didn't know what Jojo was until recently like a few years ago when the manga and OVA's existed for decades.

[Xeztin]

The only problems I really have with Super is how they handled the ROF arc, mainly Tagoma and making Goku look like a complete idiot. I have no problems with him being portrayed as being a few fries short of a happy meal, but I think him being fooled by that Monica trope every time is a bit foolish. Trunks and Goten not aging at all is another thing for me, and switching back to their old gi's. The final thing would be not explaining SSJB in full detail, but that's about all I can think of off the top of my head. The new art-style and such really doesn't bother me at all, because a series focusing on obviously aged characters probably wouldn't do well. Oh! one more thing, the cast not getting any love and it being the Goku/Vegeta show is a biggy.

[ChronoTwigger]

While Jojo certainly has beautiful keys (and yes, what you posted is a key), pay attention to how much of the show is actually animated. A large majority of its run time is made up of stills and digital trickery. It gets by on solid direction and excellent everything else. Its actual animation quality really isn't very high. It's really not a feasible route to take with a show like Dragon Ball, I'm afraid.
And well, as I already mentioned, it's a totally different type of show under totally different production environments. Not a particularly fair comparison.

You did not watch the show, that's all.

In my country the JoJo manga is serialized the same time as Japan (a risky move, but we always did so, in Italy) since 1993.
So my copies are, by chances, older than someone, here.
Western people reducing the whole TV adaptation to a meme grind it's somehow sad on my side.
Well...
It's underrated.
No one discuss about quality, only about the damned memes, but in fact no other show can today compare for sheer quality.
Music, animation, everything stand out. It's look like an OVA.

JoJo TV series had to be quoted like the best series so far. A project that sound impossible was done. Who could have think to reproduce so accurately a complex style, with so many details, in a long lasting TV show?

My concern is: if THAT is possible, why not apply it to other franchises?
There's no excuse like "no money" or "no tech". JoJo it's a weekly show the same.

Dragon ball super = Toei need characters for games = go to ask Toriyama do a plot in his sparetime.
It's not about doing anime.

[Nejishiki]

I think you missed his overall point that the production schedule for JoJo is different compared to Super and JoJo is weekly only in seasons, for it has occasional breaks. Also, as someone who has followed the JoJo manga since 2002, there are indeed Americans who appreciate the series for what it is outside of its effect on popular culture.

[Avok]

Just as a side-note regarding the series' colour: while it may not necessarily lead to any positive changes (if any at all), the series' colour designer, Teppei Hotta, who has been handling the colours since Battle of Gods, was replaced by Yoshitaka Katō as of episode 47. He's been the colour coordinator up to this point (the person who ensures the colours are consistent between episodes), so it's not necessarily going to lead to any changes, but the possibility is there.

Thank God!
I didn't even knew his name but I absolutely hate that man.

[MajinMan]

I genuinely enjoy DBS. Do I think that it's better than DB/Z? No, but that doesn't mean I'm supposed to complain about it. There are a few problems with the show that I wish were fixed/better though. The 3 main things that stick out to me as major flaws are:

1. Bad production. This has been talked about so much that I think you already understand what I'm talking about. They rushed this series into production and it shows, especially early on. It hasn't been as bad as it used to be, but every now and then it reminds you that it's a rushed product.

2. Music. My god, the music is really hit or miss. I've never felt this way with any other soundtrack in my life. It's either really enjoyable, or extremely irritating. Especially that one infamous song that plays during every important scene for whatever reason.

3. Inconsistencies and awkward plot progression. I like the mini-stories that they've told so far (except "F"), but there is no sense of real plot progression in the series. Every arc introduced so far has felt like a stand-alone story, with no real connection to each other. Hopefully with this current Trunks arc they try to make it "fit" more with the past arcs, but I doubt they will.

[Dbzfan94]

Just as a side-note regarding the series' colour: while it may not necessarily lead to any positive changes (if any at all), the series' colour designer, Teppei Hotta, who has been handling the colours since Battle of Gods, was replaced by Yoshitaka Katō as of episode 47. He's been the colour coordinator up to this point (the person who ensures the colours are consistent between episodes), so it's not necessarily going to lead to any changes, but the possibility is there.

Thank God!
I didn't even knew his name but I absolutely hate that man.

I feel like I should I be missing something but what was bad about the colors? Like Beerus being darker / lighter purple from episode to episode?

[Avok]

I feel like I should I be missing something but what was bad about the colors? Like Beerus being darker / lighter purple from episode to episode?

Just as a side-note regarding the series' colour: while it may not necessarily lead to any positive changes (if any at all), the series' colour designer, Teppei Hotta, who has been handling the colours since Battle of Gods, was replaced by Yoshitaka Kato as of episode 47. He's been the colour coordinator up to this point (the person who ensures the colours are consistent between episodes), so it's not necessarily going to lead to any changes, but the possibility is there.

Thank God!
I didn't even knew his name but I absolutely hate that man.

I feel like I should I be missing something but what was bad about the colors? Like Beerus being darker / lighter purple from episode to episode?

What you metion actually was Yoshitaka's work, the one who's the new colour designer.

What I mean is that the colour choices are awful since Battle of Gods. Most of the time everything is so shiny and bright that it looks plastic and plain, and on other occasions shadows are just too dim. There isn't any depth to these tones and when we get darker ones it looks like the whole product has a darkening filter. The backgrounds too are plastic-like. Curiously enough the same has happen with the Pokémon anime over time.

Back on track, that's why I think the 2008 OVA is a richer Dragon Ball experience, a much more polished product than those multimillion dollar theatrical releases.

And I get what Toei stand is. If you want to revive a series that has been pretty much dead for years now (at least in the animated side, new content wise) you need to update it for the newer audience and to go with the current times with flashes and bright colours, but I don't think they put the right time into studying this matter. In a series like Dragon Ball the flashiness and visual appeal shouldn't come with an oversaturated general look, but with colorful moves and over-the-top fight secuences. And not only that, but the Battle of Gods movie and the U6 arc have scenes that take place in space. That's the perfect setting for colorful backgrounds and scenes, like Space Dandy, for example.

To put it short, the series lacks atmosphere, because it looks like the characters (and sometimes the background too) are under led white lights all the time. This has a lot to do with directing too, since they aren't creating scenes that play with the colors, not even in the movies, but when those scenes come, like in the future bits in ep 47, the colours still are still to bright, it's just that they've put a dark filter over it. Trunks' skin and hair are proof of this.

I don't want a grimdark atmosphere like in GT where everything looks sad and dead, but I want an atmosphere.

To put it visually, look at Piccolo's skin or Bulma's hair in Battle of Gods, and the go back to the 2008 Special and look at the same things. Or even the palm trees or the sky.
Or the sunset scene in the Special and the night scene in Battle of Gods.

The actual difference isn't that much when you compare the colors in, say, Photoshop, but when you're watching it, it feels like night and day.

[TekTheNinja]

One Punch Man, Fairy Tale, Tokyo Ghoul, Sword Art Online are all modern and new and have relatively really good animation, and art.

Sword Art Online is known for having awful writing from what I was told. From what I've seen from Tokyo Ghoul, the animation is not that great.

SAO is horrible. It has a lot of problems but it's main problem is it's main character. Kirito is a bland character, he has no real flaws, and he is an overpowered Gary Stu.

...BUT! that's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about animation, which SAO actually does well.

[SaiyanZ]

Mainly Goku being way more childlike and stupid than he actually is, and how the writers are going out of their way (initially) to make Vegeta constantly upstage Goku (an example which I posted in an earlier thread was right before Vegeta beat up Freeza, when he said "I'm not as naive as he is", only to zoom in on the gang's face when he said that). Vegeta's characterization with the whole Saiyan pride thing against Cabbe is ridiculous as well considering he doesn't care about them. The person who places the music at points in the episode has no sense of how to do so and how to build appropriate tension either (though I felt last ep did not do this, I thought it was great). Better audio designer is needed too. Also, about the new color designer, thank God, the other guy was horrible. Sunrise's anime always has beautiful colors.

[saiyanvegetable]

The writing is so bad. So fucking bad. Just an all around terrible series that is only tolerated because it bears the Dragonball name. To enjoy this show requires some outright horrible taste that's for sure.

The manga is alright, for what it is: promo-material.

[MaGyunia]

The fact we're being "blessed" with a new full-fledged series still makes me try to avoid noting the bad aspects I see in DBSuper, but there are many things that, although they don't bother me too much, make me feel I was expecting too much.

Namely:

- The fights and their coreography, the overuse of previous attacks, some twisted and hastily-introduced techniques and, in general, the lack of quality and interest in the fights, not coming even close to anything in DBZ, neither in terms of appeal nor in terms of seriousness. It got to a point during the fights in the 6th Universe arc (but also before) that I actually started comparing DBSuper to GT in terms of how bad the fights were.
- Animation, which is horrible in some episodes, but especially the fact that you don't get the type of drawing and animation and choreography typical of DB and DBZ, but this was to be expected and doesn't mean a huge problem.
- Lack of ideas for interesting new concepts in terms of storytelling and plot. You see this a lot in a lot of what was invented for DBSuper, especially in the episodes in-between the major arcs.
- Someone mentioned the background music and, for example, the 2008 Special. DB and DBZ's BGM was a huge and vital part of what made it so distinguishable. You got that in the 2008 Special, and not only does the new background music not come nearly close to that (neither could it), it's also repetitive, but you end up liking after watching enough of DBSuper, so by this time everyone should be past this issue.