Do you like other battle shounen, and how do you feel they stack up to Dragon Ball?

[SaiyanZ]

For me, with relation to solely Dragon Ball, Slam Dunk, One Piece, Gintama & Fullmetal Alchemist are on its level. I may consider Seven Deadly Sins and Kongou Banchou too. Hunter x Hunter could reach that level if it has a longer string of interesting arcs. My logic here is kind of weird though (to explain better: I consider Dragon Ball better than Yu Yu Hakusho, but I don't consider Seven Deadly Sins better than Yu Yu Hakusho despite me saying earlier that I may put it on the same level as Dragon Ball. Similarly, I consider Gintama & Yu Yu Hakusho about as good as one another).

Also, I hate the whole thing about how something is better than something else because its more emotional. I understand that can be a criteria for considering something better, and I understand the sense behind it, but I hate when people say it as though it is definitely and objectively a reason for something being better than another. Its completely nonsensical. Same goes with "complexity".

[precita]

Its not anime, but Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is the closest thing that I watch/read. As anyone who follows TMNT knows, its about 4 Turtles trained in martial arts by their sensei to defeat Shredder and the Foot Clan of ninja's. And they also face tons of mutants, aliens, robots, etc. along the way.

TMNT was popular in the U.S. at the same time as Dragonball, from the mid 80's to early 90's.

[ABED]

Also, I hate the whole thing about how something is better than something else because its more emotional. I understand that can be a criteria for considering something better, and I understand the sense behind it, but I hate when people say it as though it is definitely and objectively a reason for something being better than another. Its completely nonsensical. Same goes with "complexity".

It is objectively good if a series can make its audience emotionally affected by the stories or the characters since art is meant to be felt. It doesn't necessarily make it better than another series because there are too many factors that go into judging art.

[Dbzfan94]

Also, I hate the whole thing about how something is better than something else because its more emotional. I understand that can be a criteria for considering something better, and I understand the sense behind it, but I hate when people say it as though it is definitely and objectively a reason for something being better than another. Its completely nonsensical. Same goes with "complexity".

It is objectively good if a series can make its audience emotionally affected by the stories or the characters since art is meant to be felt. It doesn't necessarily make it better than another series because there are too many factors that go into judging art.

It's not necessarily objectively good. Take Naruto for example like I mentioned earlier. Emotional scenes and deep backstories is perfectly fine, but when almost every character in that series ends up boiling down to an angsty sob story where it's the point you just roll your eyes.

[SaiyanZ]

Also, I hate the whole thing about how something is better than something else because its more emotional. I understand that can be a criteria for considering something better, and I understand the sense behind it, but I hate when people say it as though it is definitely and objectively a reason for something being better than another. Its completely nonsensical. Same goes with "complexity".

It is objectively good if a series can make its audience emotionally affected by the stories or the characters since art is meant to be felt. It doesn't necessarily make it better than another series because there are too many factors that go into judging art.

It's not necessarily objectively good. Take Naruto for example like I mentioned earlier. Emotional scenes and deep backstories is perfectly fine, but when almost every character in that series ends up boiling down to an angsty sob story where it's the point you just roll your eyes.

Not only that, because everyone is different, the degree of emotional attachment will be different as well. So I don't consider it a criteria for something "definitely" being better than another series. What's better is purely based on personal opinion.

[ABED]

Then those scenes aren't emotional, they're hacky or repetitive. It absolutely is objectively good for scenes to get the audience emotionally invested. Just so it's clear, "emotional" isn't another word for "sad" or "angry".

So I don't consider it a criteria for something "definitely" being better than another series.

Did you read my post? I didn't say it is a criteria for being a better series, just that all other things being equal, it's absolutely better for a scene to arouse an emotion from the audience. If the scene is repetitive then it likely won't get the audience emotionally invested.

[ekrolo2]

There's no doubt that the likes of Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Yu Yu Hakusho have beaten Dragon Ball in one area or another. Whether its more interesting powersets, better developed bad guys, better cast utilization, if you look at this stuff, they've beaten DB somewhere.

One thing DB still does the best except maybe Yu Yu Hakusho (I haven't read a lot of it yet so...) is that Dragon Ball doesn't really go over the top with emotions. There's a certain amorality to DB that's lacking in other shonen I've read. This is a double edged sword, it allows a lot of scenes that would be horribly over the top in other series to be a LOT more subdued than they would be otherwise.

But this also creates an increasingly growing problem where, as more and more ass pulls to save everyone come up, it becomes increasingly hard to buy ANYONE giving even one one thousandth of a Kardashian's ass that the *le gasp!* Earth just got blown up! Its weird because the story wants you to care but its getting all but impossible to buy everyone not just shrugging everything off because they've got a million ways to avoid defeat.

[Doctor.]

There's no doubt that the likes of Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Yu Yu Hakusho have beaten Dragon Ball in one area or another. Whether its more interesting powersets, better developed bad guys, better cast utilization, if you look at this stuff, they've beaten DB somewhere.

One thing DB still does the best except maybe Yu Yu Hakusho (I haven't read a lot of it yet so...) is that Dragon Ball doesn't really go over the top with emotions. There's a certain amorality to DB that's lacking in other shonen I've read. This is a double edged sword, it allows a lot of scenes that would be horribly over the top in other series to be a LOT more subdued than they would be otherwise.

But this also creates an increasingly growing problem where, as more and more ass pulls to save everyone come up, it becomes increasingly hard to buy ANYONE giving even one one thousandth of a Kardashian's ass that the *le gasp!* Earth just got blown up! Its weird because the story wants you to care but its getting all but impossible to buy everyone not just shrugging everything off because they've got a million ways to avoid defeat.

I don't think there's anything that Bleach has done better than DB, to be honest.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think there's anything that Bleach has done better than DB, to be honest.

I think Bleach managed to become actually fun to read a lot faster than Dragon Ball did. This is an unpopular opinion but I honestly find DB really, really boring up until the Saiyan arc. That's a whole lot of arcs where I'm borderline slipping into a coma. I don't find the humor particularly funny or a great sense of adventure and a lot of the "challenges" Goku & co meet don't become challenges until Piccolo appears.

Bleach? Arc 2 with the Soul Society is easily the best of the whole series where we get lots of interesting world building and exciting battles. You get the sense the good guys are always fighting an uphill battle and that every fight borderline kills them. Plus the twist with Aizen, say what you will about him after this arc, but the twist with him was great and the number of powers & abilities alone in Bleach make it far more varied and interesting to watch. Dragon Ball's many varieties of fuck off giant lasers get really old, really fast. Not helped by the fact interesting techniques like bladed ki weaponry, eye beams and telekinesis get ignored.

[Doctor.]

I don't think there's anything that Bleach has done better than DB, to be honest.

I think Bleach managed to become actually fun to read a lot faster than Dragon Ball did. This is an unpopular opinion but I honestly find DB really, really boring up until the Saiyan arc. That's a whole lot of arcs where I'm borderline slipping into a coma. I don't find the humor particularly funny or a great sense of adventure and a lot of the "challenges" Goku & co meet don't become challenges until Piccolo appears.

Bleach? Arc 2 with the Soul Society is easily the best of the whole series where we get lots of interesting world building and exciting battles. You get the sense the good guys are always fighting an uphill battle and that every fight borderline kills them. Plus the twist with Aizen, say what you will about him after this arc, but the twist with him was great and the number of powers & abilities alone in Bleach make it far more varied and interesting to watch. Dragon Ball's many varieties of fuck off giant lasers get really old, really fast. Not helped by the fact interesting techniques like bladed ki weaponry, eye beams and telekinesis get ignored.

Sure I don't think part 1 is as entertaining as part 2, despite being overall a better-written story, but I think that Toriyama's panelling and action scenes still make the entire series quite enjoyable and easy to read. Bleach? I was bored to death during the first arc besides the first few introductory chapters. Soul Society is easily the best in the series (and even so, I don't think it tops either the Saiyan or the Freeza arc) but it also went way downhill fast after that, whilst DB was consistently good until the end of the Namek arc and the Cell arc and Boo arcs had strong starts, too.

I don't think the powers & abilities in Bleach were used to their fullest potential and the cast of characters was definitely not used to their fullest potential. Even the Soul Society arc suffers from Bleach's main problem: that it has too many characters to work with and Kubo tries to shoehorn a bit of spotlight for everyone, resulting in dragged out pacing and fights with characters nobody gives a shit about.

[ekrolo2]

Sure I don't think part 1 is as entertaining as part 2, despite being overall a better-written story, but I think that Toriyama's panelling and action scenes still make the entire series quite enjoyable and easy to read. Bleach? I was bored to death during the first arc besides the first few introductory chapters. Soul Society is easily the best in the series (and even so, I don't think it tops either the Saiyan or the Freeza arc) but it also went way downhill fast after that, whilst DB was consistently good until the end of the Namek arc and the Cell arc and Boo arcs had strong starts, too.

I don't think the powers & abilities in Bleach were used to their fullest potential and the cast of characters was definitely not used to their fullest potential. Even the Soul Society arc suffers from Bleach's main problem: that it has too many characters to work with and Kubo tries to shoehorn a bit of spotlight for everyone, resulting in dragged out pacing and fights with characters nobody gives a shit about.

Bleach definitely had a lot of issues even during the time it was considered great. Although, even with its many cast bloating issues, I'd still say One Piece is the absolute worst with every post-time skip arc introducing an entire series worth of more people just to make every storyline feel big and epic.

If nothing else, I'd say the variety of abilities and the way fights happened gives it something over Dragon Ball. You'd never see something like Kyoraku's powers or Urahara's various tricks and gadgets in a DB fight.

[Doctor.]

If nothing else, I'd say the variety of abilities and the way fights happened gives it something over Dragon Ball. You'd never see something like Kyoraku's powers or Urahara's various tricks and gadgets in a DB fight.

Yes, that's true, but Z's beam-spamming aside, the tournament arcs (Super's included) normally have some interesting abilities and powers being showcased.

[sintzu]

This is an unpopular opinion but I honestly find DB really, really boring up until the Saiyan arc.

DB wouldn't be completely ignored by the major companies behind the franchise if that was an unpopular opinion.

[ekrolo2]

This is an unpopular opinion but I honestly find DB really, really boring up until the Saiyan arc.

DB wouldn't be completely ignored by the major companies behind the franchise if that was an unpopular opinion.

Well its kind of an unpopular opinion around these parts. And I don't think DB stuff being ignored has to do with people hating that portion, I think its just a LOT more people care more about the Z section and economically it makes a lot of sense for them cash in on that.

[sintzu]

I don't think DB stuff being ignored has to do with people hating that portion, I think its just a LOT more people care more about the Z section and economically it makes a lot of sense for them cash in on that.

I don't think fans "hate" it but there's so little interest in it that the companies treat Z as the franchise's main product while DB is its prequel.

I personally love DB but in today's industry I understand why it's not popular, especially compared to Z and to make things worse for it, Z doesn't require watching it.

[ABED]

I don't think people think DB is terrible. That's not the reason it wasn't aired first. DB got screwed by having a terrible timeslot on syndication. And DBZ doesn't require DB to be enjoyed in the same way American comics don't require having seen most of what came before in order to understand and enjoy current storylines.

[sintzu]

DBZ doesn't require DB to be enjoyed in the same way American comics don't require having seen most of what came before in order to understand and enjoy current storylines.

Do you think Toriyama intended the Saiyan arc to be like that, to maybe bring in new readers ? cause out of all the arcs set after the 1st one, it's the only other place that you can start the story and have it feel like a beginning rather then a direct continuation of another arc(s).

Even Super and GT's first arcs aren't really beginner friendly.

[Soppa Saia People]

This is an unpopular opinion but I honestly find DB really, really boring up until the Saiyan arc.

As much as I love ogdb, I have to agree. I can read 3 volumes of the Freeza arc in a row and have a blast, but with DB, I usual just read a standout moment of a volume, rather then the hole volume.

[Bagginses]

What's Boruto?

A film, and now ongoing monthly manga sequel to Naruto, running in Weekly Shonen Jump. Supervised by Kishimoto, but not actually scripted or drawn by him.

Thanks, I had never heard of this movie/manga in my life until now, lol (but I already knew about the original Naruto manga/anime series, of course).

[ABED]

DBZ doesn't require DB to be enjoyed in the same way American comics don't require having seen most of what came before in order to understand and enjoy current storylines.

Do you think Toriyama intended the Saiyan arc to be like that, to maybe bring in new readers ? cause out of all the arcs set after the 1st one, it's the only other place that you can start the story and have it feel like a beginning rather then a direct continuation of another arc(s).

Even Super and GT's first arcs aren't really beginner friendly.

I don't think the Buu arc is less beginner friendly. Hell, one could even argue that the Cyborg arc starting with Trunks could even work. Neither the Buu arc, nor the Cell arc are direct continuations of the preceeding arcs. DBZ isn't a beginning just because there's a 5 year gap. The reason people don't need to watch DB to get DBZ is because it's not a complicated story. I don't know if Toriyama wrote the Saiyan arc to be beginner friendly. It still presumes the audience knows a lot about the characters to get emotionally invested. Who would write a story where mortal enemies team up at the start of their story?