Let's talk about Trunks...

[phattangent]

That's fine if want to turn your brain off and enjoy the scene as is. But power levels are important because consistent levels help create tension. If power levels are all over the place, then its hard for the viewer to know when something is a threat to heroes. That's just that excuse that you have to turn your brain to enjoy something.

I thought that was what the music score was for?

[Boo Machine]

That's fine if want to turn your brain off and enjoy the scene as is. But power levels are important because consistent levels help create tension. If power levels are all over the place, then its hard for the viewer to know when something is a threat to heroes. That's just that excuse that you have to turn your brain to enjoy something.

Sometimes it feels like GT would of got destroyed for doing the same things Super is doing.

But if you use Cold hard math with power levels to determine who is stronger than who and the person with the higher number should be the winner no matter what, then I feel like it destroys tension, because if the show follows that rule then you know who is going to win from the start, then there is no excitement to be had.


In which case what is the point of stretching out any fight?

I feel like when someone says "power levels shouldn't matter" they mean that it doesn't help to attach RPG style numbers and states to everything and then get angry when the show chooses to ignore them for the sake of story.

There is a limit sure, and I guess that limit depends who you are, but I personally don't believe anything offensive has happened. Confusing sure, but not offensive.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This is silly.

If a 7 year old walked up to Mike Tyson and punched him out wouldn't you want to know how he got so strong so fast? If a normal 5 year old who couldn't lift 20 pounds walked up after and knocked the 7 year old out just due to "rage" wouldn't you question it?


The truth in my opinion is that power levels shouldn't be the end all be all of the show. There should be fluctuations and surprises. However a believable surprise is when Holyfield beats Tyson not when a little kid does it. There also needs to be logic behind it. Otherwise you are just saying "Writing doesnt matter. Just write something even if it doesnt make sense."

I know my example sounds extreme but the reality is the gap between some of the characters in this show is way bigger than the example I used.


Edit: To add on...the tension in a fight is created by knowing how strong the fighters are comparatively to one another. In this series the gaps have changed, reversed and so forth without much logic involved. When Zamasu is fighting Goku or Trunks I have no idea how strong any of them are relative to one another now which cuts tension IMO

[perucho1990]

But you don't acquire GodKi by anger lol

Raged Vegeta being 10% of Beerus power in BoG? And also Whiss said u can reach be "God-Tier" if u are strong enough without need the ritual(Frieza, Vegeta).

[Boo Machine]

This is silly.

If a 7 year old walked up to Mike Tyson and punched him out wouldn't you want to know how he got so strong so fast? If a normal 5 year old who couldn't lift 20 pounds walked up after and knocked the 7 year old out just due to "rage" wouldn't you question it?


The truth in my opinion is that power levels shouldn't be the end all be all of the show. There should be fluctuations and surprises. However a believable surprise is when Holyfield beats Tyson not when a little kid does it. There also needs to be logic behind it. Otherwise you are just saying "Writing doesnt matter. Just write something even if it doesnt make sense."

I know my example sounds extreme but the reality is the gap between some of the characters in this show is way bigger than the example I used.

I'd want to know because in reality a 7 year old beating mike Tyson sounds absurd. But in fiction, Children beat adults due to rage or friendship all the time. It's cheesy as all hell but it's a thing that happens.

Logic helps for sure and no one is saying the writers shouldn't take more care. But unless it gets to lunacy levels of crazy like, say, The little orphan girl taking trunks sword and slashing Zamasu in half because all of his rage and hope was still in it or something to that effect, then I feel like it isn't too bad.

I think Trunks in his new transformation using everyones energy to slash a god whos immortality is failing him isn't too out there even if we don't have every little detail.

But I can only speak for me I suppose.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This is silly.

If a 7 year old walked up to Mike Tyson and punched him out wouldn't you want to know how he got so strong so fast? If a normal 5 year old who couldn't lift 20 pounds walked up after and knocked the 7 year old out just due to "rage" wouldn't you question it?


The truth in my opinion is that power levels shouldn't be the end all be all of the show. There should be fluctuations and surprises. However a believable surprise is when Holyfield beats Tyson not when a little kid does it. There also needs to be logic behind it. Otherwise you are just saying "Writing doesnt matter. Just write something even if it doesnt make sense."

I know my example sounds extreme but the reality is the gap between some of the characters in this show is way bigger than the example I used.

I'd want to know because in reality a 7 year old beating mike Tyson sounds absurd. But in fiction, Children beat adults due to rage or friendship all the time. It's cheesy as all hell but it's a thing that happens.

Logic helps for sure and no one is saying the writers shouldn't take more care. But unless it gets to lunacy levels of crazy like, say, The little orphan girl taking trunks sword and slashing Zamasu in half because all of his rage and hope was still in it or something to that effect, then I feel like it isn't too bad.

I think Trunks in his new transformation using everyones energy to slash a god whos immortality is failing him isn't too out there even if we have little detail as to how he did it.

I totally get what you're saying about it being fiction and to a certain level I agree. I mean...I love Dragon Ball as a franchise and even DBS as a show. I hope it continues on even if it doesn't get any better than it is now because I enjoy watching it every week. At the same time though I do wish they would either take the time to explain events or have a more natural buildup to them.

My problem isn't so much what Trunks did....it's how it cheapens what other did in the past. Suddenly all the hard work Goku put into learning the Genki-Dama seems trivialized. Why practice the Mafuba...I mean just watch the video like Trunks did. I just don't like some of the leaps that have been made is all.

[Boo Machine]

I totally get what you're saying about it being fiction and to a certain level I agree. I mean...I love Dragon Ball as a franchise and even DBS as a show. I hope it continues on even if it doesn't get any better than it is now because I enjoy watching it every week. At the same time though I do wish they would either take the time to explain events or have a more natural buildup to them.

My problem isn't so much what Trunks did....it's how it cheapens what other did in the past. Suddenly all the hard work Goku put into learning the Genki-Dama seems trivialized. Why practice the Mafuba...I mean just watch the video like Trunks did. I just don't like some of the leaps that have been made is all.

You're not wrong when you say it feels cheap. Trunks does learn things too suddenly and I still wish the Mafuba had more impact.

Hopefully the writers continue to improve. Despite some questionable choices I still feel like this arc shows improvement above the other arcs in super.

[ChronoTwigger]

This arc delivered a lotta hype and all the damned planet Earth call for Black identity, Zamasu trick, how they could defeat that monster. It was a masterpiece of episodic narration.
What' really wrong
is for teenagers to babble about bad writing.
When the same guys, one day, will be able to engage million of people, they could call for technical stuff.
So far, we can only discuss about how much we liked what's offered.
I don't like much how the magical sword put an end to everything, BUT WATCHING AGAIN THE WHOLE ARC, the main topic is "Trunks, please, learn to save your own world instead of call for help everytime".
There was a leit motiv since the start. So, in the end, Trunks get stronger, get a final move, win. And if you mind well, GOKU DID NOTHING AT ALL IN THE WHOLE ARC. He was a beholder for us to see what's going on in Trunks struggles.

If power levels limits you to perceive some narrative scheme, it's not the show doing it wrong. It's you loosing some pleasure. Stop searching for something not offered at all.

[Kamen Rider Revolver]

That's fine if want to turn your brain off and enjoy the scene as is. But power levels are important because consistent levels help create tension. If power levels are all over the place, then its hard for the viewer to know when something is a threat to heroes. That's just that excuse that you have to turn your brain to enjoy something.

Sometimes it feels like GT would of got destroyed for doing the same things Super is doing.

But if you use Cold hard math with power levels to determine who is stronger than who and the person with the higher number should be the winner no matter what, then I feel like it destroys tension, because if the show follows that rule then you know who is going to win from the start, then there is no excitement to be had.


In which case what is the point of stretching out any fight?

I feel like when someone says "power levels shouldn't matter" they mean that it doesn't help to attach RPG style numbers and states to everything and then get angry when the show chooses to ignore them for the sake of story.

There is a limit sure, and I guess that limit depends who you are, but I personally don't believe anything offensive has happened. Confusing sure, but not offensive.

Nobody is saying using cold hard facts. Just be consistent, so when things happen they make sense and if there is a surprise the story should have a reason such an upset. In a show like Hunter x Hunter for example, the show illustrates in great detail how Nen fights work. So your not surprised when a weaker user beats a more experienced one.

This arc delivered a lotta hype and all the damned planet Earth call for Black identity, Zamasu trick, how they could defeat that monster. It was a masterpiece of episodic narration.
What' really wrong
is for teenagers to babble about bad writing.
When the same guys, one day, will be able to engage million of people, they could call for technical stuff.
So far, we can only discuss about how much we liked what's offered.
I don't like much how the magical sword put an end to everything, BUT WATCHING AGAIN THE WHOLE ARC, the main topic is "Trunks, please, learn to save your own world instead of call for help everytime".
There was a leit motiv since the start. So, in the end, Trunks get stronger, get a final move, win. And if you mind well, GOKU DID NOTHING AT ALL IN THE WHOLE ARC. He was a beholder for us to see what's going on in Trunks struggles.

If power levels limits you to perceive some narrative scheme, it's not the show doing it wrong. It's you loosing some pleasure. Stop searching for something not offered at all.

You sound more offended than anyone else to be honest. Just because it makes senses that Trunks won, doesn't mean you have automatically like how they did it. Two different things. Just because people question how things happen doesn't make them wrong.

[Boo Machine]

Nobody is saying using cold hard facts. Just be consistent, so when things happen they make sense and if there is a surprise the story should have a reason such an upset. In a show like Hunter x Hunter for example, the show illustrates in great detail how Nen fights work. So your not surprised when a weaker user beats a more experienced one.

You're not wrong.

Though I feel like Hunter X Hunter is a different beast altogether. They operate on so many different kinds of powers and abilities. So it definitely works better when one character can get the jump over the other.

[pacz360]

OH BOY ANOTHER BUT Z DID TOO THEREFORE SUPER SHOULD GET PASS BULLSHIT! no most of those examples you listed were explained while trunks wasn't at all. Seriously this "z did too shtick" needs to stop.

To be fair, If people can use comparisons to Z to convey what they don't like about Super, then others should be able to use comparisons to Z to defend Super.

I think when people do so, it isn't to make Z look worse, but to ask the question of 'Why is it ok for Z to get away with this, but not ok for Super to get away with it."

Listen z isn't perfect everyone one knows that but that doesn't mean for them to repeat the same mistake the original did infact you want avoid making the same mistakeg that plagued it.

[Boo Machine]

OH BOY ANOTHER BUT Z DID TOO THEREFORE SUPER SHOULD GET PASS BULLSHIT! no most of those examples you listed were explained while trunks wasn't at all. Seriously this "z did too shtick" needs to stop.

To be fair, If people can use comparisons to Z to convey what they don't like about Super, then others should be able to use comparisons to Z to defend Super.

I think when people do so, it isn't to make Z look worse, but to ask the question of 'Why is it ok for Z to get away with this, but not ok for Super to get away with it."

Listen z isn't perfect everyone one knows that but that doesn't mean for them to repeat the same mistake the original did infact you want avoid making the same mistakeg that plagued it.

Of course. They should always strive to do better. But should Super do something people don't like and Z also did something similar but people were ok with it, I feel we should acknowledge that people are going to question why one is ok but the other isn't. And I think it's a fair query.

[omaro34]

Trunks pulled off many things this Arc that came out of nowhere, and many was mentioned in this thread.

But one that I don't see was his ability to do the Mafuba perfectly after seeing it done properly just once when others like Goku and Roshi took much longer than that. This idea that he was such a prodigy was never truly established in the past, hence why people are saying that this Arc was written by a Trunks fanboy with all of these mystical powerups.

[omaro34]

I don't really mind the absurd moments that lead up to Future Trunks killing Zamasu. I swallowed worst bullshit in the original story and still enjoyed it for what it was because the moment(s) that is produced were usually great. So really all of the unusual moments in the Future Trunks arc are no different. I don't follow Dragon Ball and feel tied down by the quality of its writing, because if that were the case, I would have quit the series once the Androids and Cell appeared. I watch and keep following Dragon Ball because it's a spectacle. It's a fireworks show. And Future Trunks arc was the greatest fireworks show Dragon Ball has ever produced, in my opinion.

Really? Come on bro, Trunks somehow learning the Mafuba very fast, then surging with power with that Broly type transformation, then pulling off a Genki-Dama sword attack all seemingly out of nowhere isn't a problem for you? Where did he learn the Genki-Dama? Only Goku and King Kai know the technique. It shows lazy writing my friend, because these mystical powerups aren't in the least bit explained.

[DemonRin]

Ok, I just rewatched the fight and I think people are definitely overreacting on the complaining about Trunks' power. Sure, he got some kind of boost from anger recently, as well as, I would argue a ton of Zenkais he no doubt got from the multiple beatdowns and senzu recoveries he got over this arc... But the people complaining that he apparently got stronger than Zamasu or Vegetto look like they're plain wrong. The groundwork was laid for Trunks to be able to win the way he does.

- I do remember it being said at one point by... I think Goku that Zamasu is somewhat Reckless when it comes to taking hits since he knows he's immortal. If you know it isn't going to do crap, why block any attacks?

- Gowasu noted that the fact that Zamasu was a fusion of a mortal being and an immortal being made him unstable and vulnerable

- That being said, Vegetto did a TON of damage. Hell, before Vegetto even happened Goku did enough damage that his body started breaking down into that purple goop and then broke the "Halo" thing on his back and it doesn't come back after that. That's all BEFORE Vegetto hits him with an absolutely epic beatdown that ended with Vegetto hitting him with that "Final Kamehameha" attack which Vegetto said he believed should have finished Zamasu. He may have been wrong and it didn't obviously, but if he thought it should have that must mean it was a pretty strong hit. It wasn't even the last one. Vegetto got one last super powered punch in on him before they de-fused.

- During the Vegetto fight, once Zamasu starts losing, he gets angry and if you notice, bulks up considerably. After that, Vegetto notes that he's readily outclassing Zamasu on speed. How much you wanna bet Zamasu did some equivalent to Trunks' super slow USSJ form? Hell, you could even say Toei laid the groundwork on this by showing Trunks fake out Vegeta with it when they trained earlier to remind people "Hey, this is a thing". Vegeta even notes then that the form is useless. Subtle drop to the viewer maybe?

- Even after all of this, Trunks was still in trouble. He jumps in to defend Goku and Vegeta. You could say he only succeeded here because Zamasu was NOT expecting him to jump in, but then Trunks is pretty much on the defensive the entire time. A wounded, blinded by rage, and notably slowed down Zamasu was still putting pressure on Trunks. It isn't like Trunks jumped in and got mad and suddenly began whooping Zamasu. Zamasu takes a couple of slashes from the sword, but immediately notes that it won't work because he's immortal, harkening back, again, to the fact that he doesn't prioritize defense because of the immortality.

- Trunks ONLY gets on the offensive and starts doing well AFTER he takes the Genki Dama (I'm calling it that until we get another explanation for what it is) into himself. So that means the tide only turned when you took Trunks' actual power and then mixed it with the power of all life on the planet, GOKU, AND VEGETA (you know, the two guys that make up Vegetto, the guy who was just curbstomping Zamasu.)

EVEN THEN, Even after ALL OF THAT, we know from a spoiler that was released in Jump that...

[spoiler]Zamasu is apparently still alive in some form. It implied his physical body is gone, but he's still somehow a threat.

The spoiler then implies that Zeno is the one who actually ends Zamasu.[/spoiler]


So, honestly, while I would also like a more concrete explanation for Trunks' jumps in power as well as what exactly that final attack was and how Trunks did it, the concept of Trunks beating Zamasu had groundwork laid to make it possible and YMMV as to whether the groundwork is enough for you, but it's there. You can still say you think it was poorly executed of anything like that, but This didn't just come entirely out of left field.

Plus, what's more, some of those answers we want may still come next week. This one ended on the cliffhanger of Trunks slicing Zamasu in half. We got NO aftermath. I'd say someone (Vegeta, Goku, Kaioshin, Mai, Bulma) saying SOMETHING about that attack is a very high possibility.

So maybe wait before we freak out and declare Super the worst thing ever?...

[Fishman]

GOKU, AND VEGETA (you know, the two guys that make up Vegetto, the guy who was just curbstomping Zamasu.)

This is a nitpick, but Fusions have been shown time and time again to be greater than simply the sum of its parts. Not sure if it was a SEG stat (which I tend to ignore as a rule for my own sanity but in this case something in between would be believable) or a Daizenshuu one, but Fusions are A * B rather than A + B.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think I've ever known a fanbase that's opinions on a show in general are affected so much by power levels in it. Not specifically referring to this topic or even this forum, it's just something with this fanbase in general.

For example if they had Piccolo and Gohan show up and they fought Black and it was a really good entertaining fight scene, fantastic animation, one of the best fights in all the franchise. Instead of people enjoying it though people would be ripping the show and Toriyama because "but power levels!". You'd be likely to see more people criticizing it for that than praising it for how good it was.

As someone else mentioned, the stories are built around power levels. That's kind of the point of the series: new villain appears > characters are powerless > they find new methods to become stronger > epic final battle.

If all of a sudden they're inconsistent as to who is stronger than who, then wtf is the point of this? I don't want to see Piccolo randomly appear and hold his own against Black with no explanation given. I don't care how "epic" the battle is. I want to see Piccolo evolve as a character and fighter through some sort of special training or fusion (even as lame as the Nail one) first. That'd make his battle much more significant and rewarding, and wouldn't get in the way of the consistency of the story.

What they did with Trunks in Super was...astonishing in the worst possible way. They literally gave him everyone's powers. Gohan's hidden power, Vegeta's techniques, Goku's spirit bomb, the mafuba, a ki blade, a new SSJ form that is stronger than SSJB, and so on. And yet... he did little to nothing to attain anything. He just got mad a lot. This goes against anything ever established in the franchise and was lazy beyond belief. I don't know about you, but I'd personally feel a tad insulted if these writers go into this with the mentality of "oh, these guys just like DB for cool battles. Don't worry about logic or context; they'll eat this shit anyways." When you read Toyotaro's manga, you can see there's actual care and attention to detail implemented, which I appreciate.

I know they explained these things but that's not my point, it's that they're cheap and lame ass pull power ups. Gohan sitting down while the Elder Kai does a jig around him for a few hours that now made him enormous more powerful than Goku even though he'd spent years training was cheap.

What needs to be explained about Trunks? He got angry and got a new really powerful form out of it just like Goku and Gohan did in the past. It's self explanatory.

Gohan being the most powerful is plausible, given the fact that his hidden power was released in full. A power that always allowed him to close gaps between himself and anyone hundreds of times stronger than him.

You really can't see the issue of Trunks' form? How can you even compare it to Goku and Gohan? The SSJ form was foreshadowed throughout the Namek arc. It's clear you had to reach a certain level of power through training before a certain event in your life triggered it through rage and sadness. Vegeta didn't just get mad and become one. Neither did Gohan at this point.

Gohan was shown to have hidden power since he was introduced. That was his thing. And that was the focal point of the Cell Games. Toriyama didn't just decide one day to just make him mad and become a god; he played with something that had already been there.

Trunks never showcased any of this in the Cell saga. Otherwise, why didn't he beat Cell? Furthermore, he didn't just get mad and become stronger in the Black arc. He attained a new form that replaced SSJ3....because. Not only did it replace SSJ3, but it surpassed SSJG, which in turn made him stronger than Super Vegito and Buuhan. This form is a walking contradiction. How any DBZ fan can be happy with this is beyond me. And mind you, I think the form looks awesome. Can't wait to see how Toyotaro handles it.

[Bullza]

What? The Broly Movies are so bad they're not even canon with each other. A ton of people don't like Broly.

Whatchu talkin bout Willis? Prior to the two new movies coming out that Broly movie along with Fusion Reborn was by far the most popular of the DBZ movies and Broly is one of the most popular characters in the franchise, it wouldn't surprise me if he's more popular than the canon main villains.

I've literally seems some of the same people in here defending Vegetas and Golden Freeza's power up and not claiming never to see the complaints. Idk how many threads on the topic have been made but claiming the fans are not complaining about Vegeta acquiring God ki is incredibly disingenuous and seems to be taking that stance yo validate something equally ridiculous.

I've seen a small fraction of the amount of complaints about Vegeta obtaining God Ki that Trunks is getting criticism for. I saw no complaints about him acquiring the power for the Resurrection F movie and for Super it's been more confusion about how he got the power and how he obtained it in just six months than actual complaints about how he got it.

People have been complaining about how Trunks got some rage boost which allowed him to fight against Black briefly but then for the most part people don't have nearly as much of an issue with Vegeta having a rage boost that put him far above Mystic Gohan. I've seen complaints for that but nothing like what I'm seeing for Trunks even though it's the same thing.

That's fine if want to turn your brain off and enjoy the scene as is. But power levels are important because consistent levels help create tension. If power levels are all over the place, then its hard for the viewer to know when something is a threat to heroes. That's just that excuse that you have to turn your brain to enjoy something.

But where is it all over the place? At the start of the saga we know that SSJ2 Trunks is already stronger than SSJ2 Goku. He did some training, image training, apparently he trained with Vegeta, admittedly it didn't help that it was mentioned in some magazine that Trunks had got a lot stronger before going back into the future but at least we know.

If he got some huge rage boost Battle of Gods Vegeta style then that would explain him being able to hold his own against Black very briefly. Later on he gets really furious, he obtains a new transformation that greatly powers him up to the point he's able to hold his own better against a further powered up Black. This form is enough to put him on par with Goku and Vegeta, simple enough.

In the last episode Trunks combined his own power with the power from Goku and Vegeta and absorbing the power of the spirit bomb and then focusing that power into his blade like he'd just done moments earlier with the golden blade to kill Zamasu who by that point had likely lost speed due to bulking up, lost power due to Vegito's attacks and became rash from the sheer anger of it all.

So the basics of it isn't a mess at all. So where's the issue coming from?

[PsionicWarrior]

Yeah, that's most likely the case for Goku and Vegeta since we saw them manifesting God ki for the first time after Whis specifically instructed them to calmly raise their ki within themselves without letting it leak.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean there's not more than one way of obtaining God ki, or at least a way of obtaining a transformation that is on par with God tier characters. Super Trunks' aura surely symbolizes that he's accomplished one of the two.

OK you make a good point it is true we can have other ways of attaining God Ki but if you ask me it's a bit silly, like there would be other ways to make a Genki-Dama...oh wait lol

Even so, going straight from SSJ2 to around SSB level from one rage boost, come on it's ridiculous no matter how you look at it lol

But you don't acquire GodKi by anger lol

Raged Vegeta being 10% of Beerus power in BoG? And also Whiss said u can reach be "God-Tier" if u are strong enough without need the ritual(Frieza, Vegeta).

Oh did he say that sorry I forgot, cheers lol

Well -putting aside earlier fuckups does not warrant newer ones- in the case of Vegeta is a bit different, as a temporary rage boost we've seen this plenty and is not even close to be as shocking than Trunks INSANE powerup IMO lol

Trunks pulled off many things this Arc that came out of nowhere, and many was mentioned in this thread.

But one that I don't see was his ability to do the Mafuba perfectly after seeing it done properly just once when others like Goku and Roshi took much longer than that. This idea that he was such a prodigy was never truly established in the past, hence why people are saying that this Arc was written by a Trunks fanboy with all of these mystical powerups.

Yeah you're right mate sorry the list is just too long lol

[PsionicWarrior]

That's fine if want to turn your brain off and enjoy the scene as is. But power levels are important because consistent levels help create tension. If power levels are all over the place, then its hard for the viewer to know when something is a threat to heroes. That's just that excuse that you have to turn your brain to enjoy something.

I thought that was what the music score was for?

Music scores emphasis the tensions even more but you need to have tension to start with, I mean if you put some epic track on top of something that has close to no stakes the musical effect might have the opposite outcome and the scene looks like a parody lol