Super is TOO anime.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Back in DBZ, everything was serious and there wasn't much of a feel of a Japanese anime, especially the High School Gohan scene.

Umm... no? I don't have it available right now, so I can't source you the hundreds and hundreds of examples of Japanese-ness and comedy in Dragon Ball Z, but it's definitely there.

By any chance, have you watched the Japanese version, or are you a English dub-only fan? If you've only seen the English, I think I understand where you're coming from, they didn't adapt many of the more Japanese aspects.

I'm in both of the English and Japanese versions of the show and the manga. When I read the manga, there wasn't much Japanese included in it.

There are Japanese environments, there's Japanese humor. Characters are based on Japanese stereotypes. Gohan's school is pretty liberal, but it definitely resembles Japanese schools. The character's powers are based on Japanese spiritual principles. Shenlong, along with the others are Eastern-type Dragons. The less modern clothes are Japanese. That's just off the top of my head. I don't know where you're getting this idea, but it's dead wrong.

[Cipher]

The less modern clothes are Japanese.

The less modern clothes are mostly Chinese. Poor Yajirobe sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The less modern clothes are Japanese.

The less modern clothes are mostly Chinese. Poor Yajirobe sticks out like a sore thumb.

I knew that, momentary lapse on my part. It's Eastern, nonetheless.

[precita]

Tenshihan used to wear very typical Asian outfits back in Dragonball. I think people have forgotten this.

[Cipher]

I guess it's worth noting that Dragon World the original run of the series really doesn't draw much inspiration from Japanese culture. It seems to be entirely made up of areas that are vaguely Chinese, vaguely Indian, vaguely Arabic, and vaguely American. Certainly it's all through the filter of Toriyama's sensibilities as a Japanese citizen and pop-culture junkie, and much of its mythology would be familiar to Japanese audiences, but in terms of its actual Earth, it seems to draw inspiration from just about anywhere but. Again, Yajirobe really sticks out.

In fact, and this is just hitting me now, I think Super represents a pretty big departure in its consistent portrayal of uniquely Japanese food. Most of the food in the manga/original anime trilogy is either completely cartoonish or Chinese-inspired. Or Bulma's baguette and coffee.

[LuckyCat]

I guess it's worth noting that Dragon World the original run of the series really doesn't draw much inspiration from Japanese culture. It seems to be entirely made up of areas that are vaguely Chinese, vaguely Indian, vaguely Arabic, and vaguely American. Certainly it's all through the filter of Toriyama's sensibilities as a Japanese citizen and pop-culture junkie, and much of its mythology would be familiar to Japanese audiences, but in terms of its actual Earth, it seems to draw inspiration from just about anywhere but.

I think this undersells the Japanese pop culture references in the series. For example, there's Shu, the Japanese breed Shiba Inu dog who dresses like a ninja. Then there's the Purple Shogun who uses all sorts of ninjutsu techniques like shurikens and smoke bombs. Karin also looks like a maneki neko and copies its mannerisms.

[Cipher]

I think this undersells the Japanese pop culture references in the series. For example, there's Shu, the Japanese breed Shiba Inu dog who dresses like a ninja. Then there's the Purple Shogun who uses all sorts of ninjutsu techniques like shurikens and smoke bombs. Karin also looks like a maneki neko and copies its mannerisms.

May or may not have forgotten both Karin and any/all ninja characters while writing that.

And of course there are Japanese pop-culture riffs in characters like the Ginyu Tokusentai and Saiyaman. Still, Dragon World as a fictional setting tends to take relatively few cues from Japan, mostly due to its roots in Journey to the West and other wuxia stories, and the American-styled West City serving as a contrast early on, providing the world's two dominant aesthetics.

[LuckyCat]

And of course there are Japanese pop-culture riffs in characters like the Ginyu Tokusentai and Saiyaman. Still, Dragon World as a fictional setting tends to take relatively few cues from Japan, mostly due to its roots in Journey to the West and other wuxia stories, and the American-styled West City serving as a contrast early on, providing the world's two dominant aesthetics.

I wonder, how is West City American-styled? It could serve as any modern city like Tokyo, Taipei, or Shanghai. I do agree that Dragon Ball has a pan-cultural feel to it, but besides there being some specific Japanese foods (which are always unimportant to the story), I'm not really seeing Super taking any big steps to become any more Japanese than the earlier material.

[Cipher]

I wonder, how is West City American-styled? It could serve as any modern city like Tokyo, Taipei, or Shanghai. I do agree that Dragon Ball has a pan-cultural feel to it, but besides there being some specific Japanese foods (which are always unimportant to the story), I'm not really seeing Super taking any big steps to become any more Japanese than the earlier material.

I thought about calling it less specifically Western, but I thought back to its first appearance and all the incidental characters there, from Bulma's mom to the police officer to hustling street fighters, and I am pretty sure Toriyama was drawing on hyperbolic New York media portrayals (especially the kind that make it to Japan) more than anything else. It's just a part of pop culture there. City portrayals in the series (as in, Satan City and West City) are a lot more radical than a solely Japanese-inspired take would be, from diverse races (or off-putting charicatures, in Dragon Ball's case), to Gohan's lax school uniform stance, to gun-toting robbers as common fixtures.

I don't see Super as nodding more to real-world Japan outside of the food; all that was just an aside on the setup of Dragon World. I did note earlier that Super tends to use non-Toriyama-esque generic anime visual and dialogue tropes at a higher rate than earlier series, but that's a completely different topic.

EDIT -- But then we have Kuririn working in a police box later, which is Japanese as hell, so whatever. Generically Western-ish, mostly not very Japanese, but somewhat Japanese cities.

Oh, also Chi-Chi's whole tiger mom shtick and constant fussing over Gohan becoming a "delinquent" (furyou) is extremely Japanese in a way I don't think most English-language viewers pick up on.

[precita]

Oh, also Chi-Chi's whole tiger mom shtick and constant fussing over Gohan becoming a "delinquent" (furyou) is extremely Japanese in a way I don't think most English-language viewers pick up on.

Isn't Chi-Chi and her tiger mom thing a Chinese stereotype, rather than Japanese?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Oh, also Chi-Chi's whole tiger mom shtick and constant fussing over Gohan becoming a "delinquent" (furyou) is extremely Japanese in a way I don't think most English-language viewers pick up on.

Isn't Chi-Chi and her tiger mom thing a Chinese stereotype, rather than Japanese?

She's Chinese-based character, but the whole "overbearing mother" stereotype is Japanese.

[Attitudefan]

I think this undersells the Japanese pop culture references in the series. For example, there's Shu, the Japanese breed Shiba Inu dog who dresses like a ninja. Then there's the Purple Shogun who uses all sorts of ninjutsu techniques like shurikens and smoke bombs. Karin also looks like a maneki neko and copies its mannerisms.

May or may not have forgotten both Karin and any/all ninja characters while writing that.

And of course there are Japanese pop-culture riffs in characters like the Ginyu Tokusentai and Saiyaman. Still, Dragon World as a fictional setting tends to take relatively few cues from Japan, mostly due to its roots in Journey to the West and other wuxia stories, and the American-styled West City serving as a contrast early on, providing the world's two dominant aesthetics.

Ginyu, when it hit North American audiences, were well aware of Power Rangers and the like, which became a huge part of North American culture at the time. So, it was not out of place for non-Japanese audiences to see the Ginyu Force.

It's actually really interesting, cause I believe the different areas, like the Tenkaichi Budokai, was inspired by Toriyama's travels. So, the different characters live in different parts of the world much like real people. Bulma, for example, lives in West city. If the name of the city itself doesn't give it away, it is a westernized city definitely inspired by 1980s USA. All the women have big perms, they wear polos, jeans, western formal suits etc. Bulma dresses much like Americans did at the time. Her hospital era style post Sayain fight is definitely early 1990s late 80s. When in the city, Bulma always wore her hair big, which was the style at the time (and to me, is definitely way better looking than modern thin straight hair of today). I don't recall Bulma ever dressing like traditional East Asians would (Doesn't she even complain about the clothing she was forced to wear in the desert? The desert clothing definitely is Arabic/Persian/Indian and she seemed turned off by that).

Dragon Ball was not set in a globally influenced Japanese world. In fact, every area had its own unique culture. Back to the Tenkaichi Budokai, as I think Toriyama mentioned it was inspired by something like Southeast Asia, it had Buddhist overtones and architecture (the tournament officials definitely are reminiscent of Buddhist influenced societies). West city, where Bulma was from, is high tech and modern, with fashionable, well dressed people. I think of something like New York, but really could be any major Western city (including Tokyo). Goku's home is like rural China. Even Chichi dresses in traditional Chinese wear.

The snowy village during the Red Ribbon Army arc is definitely based off Eastern Europe, particularly Slavic cultures. The characters there and the place they live are inspired by cultures of Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia which come to mind.

It's possible Super feels so different is because it probably is. And maybe the notion that it is 'too anime' is legitimate. Dragon Ball had places and characters that were of all types. Sure, much of the main cast has origins that are East Asian inspired, but other characters were not. Bulma and her family are really Western. Characters in the tournament have Middle Eastern or Indian inspired designs. The Red Ribbon arc had many locations with people from various backgrounds. The Army itself is somewhat based on European authoritarian regimes, particularly Blue's squad, based off Nazi Germany. Then you have Freeza's culture which is not really "Japanese". I don't recall Freeza's army doing any overt Japanese cultural things. I don't even think Freeza's men bow (in Japan, bowing to authority is a major deal in their culture). Instead, Zarbon kneels in Freeza's presence (Which could be from anywhere). Anyways, I'm probably looking too much into it, but the point stands. Not everything was based off Japanese culture and customs.

[Ringworm128]

Probably the only time I will ever have an excuse to post this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3BnzJpehc

Anyway, Dragonball has always been Eastern, did Faulconer's score just make people start seeing burgers and milkshakes? I think the "too anime" complaint comes from the abundance of anime tropes in Super and the whole thing being directed with modern audiences in mind.

[MrWalnut4]

I think this undersells the Japanese pop culture references in the series. For example, there's Shu, the Japanese breed Shiba Inu dog who dresses like a ninja. Then there's the Purple Shogun who uses all sorts of ninjutsu techniques like shurikens and smoke bombs. Karin also looks like a maneki neko and copies its mannerisms.

May or may not have forgotten both Karin and any/all ninja characters while writing that.

And of course there are Japanese pop-culture riffs in characters like the Ginyu Tokusentai and Saiyaman. Still, Dragon World as a fictional setting tends to take relatively few cues from Japan, mostly due to its roots in Journey to the West and other wuxia stories, and the American-styled West City serving as a contrast early on, providing the world's two dominant aesthetics.

Ginyu, when it hit North American audiences, were well aware of Power Rangers and the like, which became a huge part of North American culture at the time. So, it was not out of place for non-Japanese audiences to see the Ginyu Force.

It's actually really interesting, cause I believe the different areas, like the Tenkaichi Budokai, was inspired by Toriyama's travels. So, the different characters live in different parts of the world much like real people. Bulma, for example, lives in West city. If the name of the city itself doesn't give it away, it is a westernized city definitely inspired by 1980s USA. All the women have big perms, they wear polos, jeans, western formal suits etc. Bulma dresses much like Americans did at the time. Her hospital era style post Sayain fight is definitely early 1990s late 80s. When in the city, Bulma always wore her hair big, which was the style at the time (and to me, is definitely way better looking than modern thin straight hair of today). I don't recall Bulma ever dressing like traditional East Asians would (Doesn't she even complain about the clothing she was forced to wear in the desert? The desert clothing definitely is Arabic/Persian/Indian and she seemed turned off by that).

Dragon Ball was not set in a globally influenced Japanese world. In fact, every area had its own unique culture. Back to the Tenkaichi Budokai, as I think Toriyama mentioned it was inspired by something like Southeast Asia, it had Buddhist overtones and architecture (the tournament officials definitely are reminiscent of Buddhist influenced societies). West city, where Bulma was from, is high tech and modern, with fashionable, well dressed people. I think of something like New York, but really could be any major Western city (including Tokyo). Goku's home is like rural China. Even Chichi dresses in traditional Chinese wear.

The snowy village during the Red Ribbon Army arc is definitely based off Eastern Europe, particularly Slavic cultures. The characters there and the place they live are inspired by cultures of Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia which come to mind.

It's possible Super feels so different is because it probably is. And maybe the notion that it is 'too anime' is legitimate. Dragon Ball had places and characters that were of all types. Sure, much of the main cast has origins that are East Asian inspired, but other characters were not. Bulma and her family are really Western. Characters in the tournament have Middle Eastern or Indian inspired designs. The Red Ribbon arc had many locations with people from various backgrounds. The Army itself is somewhat based on European authoritarian regimes, particularly Blue's squad, based off Nazi Germany. Then you have Freeza's culture which is not really "Japanese". I don't recall Freeza's army doing any overt Japanese cultural things. I don't even think Freeza's men bow (in Japan, bowing to authority is a major deal in their culture). Instead, Zarbon kneels in Freeza's presence (Which could be from anywhere). Anyways, I'm probably looking too much into it, but the point stands. Not everything was based off Japanese culture and customs.

This represents my thoughts better than I think I could put it myself. Dragon Ball, although heavily influenced by Eastern cultures in its origins, evolved into a globalized world that truly felt like it contained a diversity of culture, setting, and tone. Thinking back to DBZ as an example, the Japanese pop-culture was either limited or I simply didn't catch them. In contrast, Super seems to have dropped most of the world that the original Dragon Ball and Z developed in favor of the cliches and tropes of modern anime. Where Z had a few episodes of the stereotypical high school and a platitudinous line every now and then, Super can't seem to go an episode without some kind of trope or cliche. There are numerous reasons for this some of which have already been stated in this thread. I just find it unfortunate that all the problems that caused this happened to a series that I enjoy so much.

[Attitudefan]

Ironically, I think Dragon Ball's opening and ending credits from before Super were very cliche anime. The love ballad from the very first credit sequence is out of any shonen or shoujo anime produced at the time. Although, I do think Makafushigi Adventure and Cha La as songs stand out and are not cliche. Instead, they are very unique. On the other hand, the visuals to the openings are really cliche, typical anime opening and ending credit sequences. That's why I can understand Funimation's choice to change it as the opening sequences (animation, not the music) were really unlike North American openings at that time period. Still, Get that Dragon Ball is still in a similar vein to Makafushigi Adventure, and Cha La remained intact on the Pioneer produced films. Personally, even as a child, hearing Cha La was fantastic despite not understanding the nuances behind the reasons for the musical changes in the broadcast dub. I still think Dragon Ball has fantastic tunes from the original run.

However, Super's opening is really generic. I don't even find it catchy but actually really annoying, but that's a personal quip I have with it. You could have Super's opening theme on nearly any other generic anime out there and it'd fit. Would Cha La and Makafushigi Adventure fit on other anime titles? My opinion: no way. Hell, even the English dub's replacement score's openings are quite unique for the show and very memorable. They fall into the same category as the original: special to Dragon Ball and only Dragon Ball.

Out of modern anime, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure knows how to have very special opening and ending sequences. The only song that is generic in that series is Crazy Noisy Bizarre Town (which I believe is done on purpose actually, to represent that Jojo has moved completely to Japan, and that part of the series is more of a parody of the Slice of Life genre; the earlier themes definitely had the epic, grand adventure feel to it without the songs being "too anime" if that makes sense). If you haven't seen the series, definitely check it out. So far, the earliest parts are fantastic (and came out originally around the same time Dragon Ball did back in the 80s). Maybe due to when it came out, like Dragon Ball, the show doesn't rely on tropes (if it does, it most likely popularized or invented them) and is a breath of fresh air.

[Ki Breaker]

Probably the only time I will ever have an excuse to post this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3BnzJpehc

Wa.. waah..
Some back story on this would be appreciated.. I feel like I am missing something here..
This was very funny but what was this and how did I not know about it..

[alexhermit]

Yes i understand OP, there is something about Super that makes it more of a generic type anime with the loss of charm that Z used to have. I even noticed that their trying to turn dragon ball world into an actual japan with same cultural trends which is silly to be honest cause dragon ball is suppost to be an alternate toriyama version of earth with a 80s canadian city feel with flying cars and talking animals walking in suits.

[Attitudefan]

Not necessarily. I mean, in the 2nd episode of Dragon Ball Z, Bulma, Krillin, and Muten-Roshi bow when introducing themselves to Gohan. Although, these moments are rare, the Dragon World's Earth is not void of Japanese culture completely.

[keyz05]

Worst of all, Goku does not keep his cool and reserved attitude from DBZ. Which is kind of disappointing to me. Since he is SO battle-obsessed. And before anyone points out that the series and newer games are made in Japan, yeah, obviously.

[Mazingerdestro]

Animating changes
New techniques are born
People ask different stuff
Digital coloring

As for the wacky characters I blame the time slot and the choice of target audience