Ideas Don't Matter, Execution Matters

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Where does the notion that Pan is annoying come from, I wonder. She's an emotional insert, that's really all she ever was, but she played that part incredibly for the type of show GT was. Is it just the fact that she has detectable emotions? I honestly cannot comprehend people's problem with GT Pan.

The main reason I disliked her when I was younger was her voice. I remember that, whenever I was watching GT on Nicktoons on Toonami when I was younger, I would always get irritated by it. I couldn't stand the nasally old lady sound that I felt it had. It still annoys me lol. After watching the original version years later, I liked and tolerated her a lot more than I had when I heard her FUNi voice. I've met others who didn't like her because of it as well.

Really? Thinking about it now, I guess I never was a fan of Baughman's performance, but it's far from intolerable. Maybe there's something to that, though.

[8000 Saiyan]

Eh, Pan is a kid, so it's understandable why some people would find her annoying.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Eh, Pan is a kid, so it's understandable why some people would find her annoying.

That doesn't really follow. If it's just the fact that she's a child, why weren't Goku, Kuririn, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten just as reviled? Not to mention that Goku himself was a kid in GT. It's pretty obviously something isolated to Pan specifically.

[ABED]

I find her more tolerable than others did, but my issue with her is when her desire to hog the spotlight and "help" does more harm than good. It's like Scrappy Doo.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I find her more tolerable than others did, but my issue with her is when her desire to hog the spotlight and "help" does more harm than good. It's like Scrappy Doo.

It's not intrusive though. I can only think of 3-4 (Let's round it up to 5) episodes tops where it was notable at all. Even less where it caused any problems worth mentioning.

[ABED]

I find her more tolerable than others did, but my issue with her is when her desire to hog the spotlight and "help" does more harm than good. It's like Scrappy Doo.

It's not intrusive though. I can only think of 3-4 (Let's round it up to 5) episodes tops where it was notable at all. Even less where it caused any problems worth mentioning.

No, it's not necessarily intrusive, but it's like kids constantly asking "are we there yet?" It grates on the nerves.

[Rukawa11]

Yes, he's a lot like Goku, but we've already got a Goku.

And that's exactly where Toriyama/ Toei have messed up. Brushing Goten aside because you can't have him growing up with Goku's personality and hairstyle is criminal. Picture this: you're a 7 year old kid with a father and older brother who've both captained your local basketball team to glory, and you're showing signs that you could surpass both. Once you've reached the right age, however, you're denied this opportunity because your father, who'd handed the captaincy to your older brother and retired years ago, happened to return from retirement and express an insatiable desire to lead the team forever. How would that make you feel?

Now, I'm not saying I understand how Goten feels cause they've never focused enough on him (has he ever had an internal monologue?!), but I just think the character's treatment was cruel. At some point, during the "We Gotta Power" opening era, you see Goten pop up from behind adult Gohan atop the Kinto un/ nimbus cloud exactly the same way kid Gohan did with Goku in "Cha la Head Cha La." It really looked like Goten was being touted as Gohan's successor the same way Gohan succeeded Goku during the Cell fight. It's infinitely hilarious how things had turned upside down and we ended up with a wimpy looking pair of Gohan and Goten in GT who'd get beaten up more easily than Yamucha and Tenshinhan. This was all for Goku's sake.

[ABED]

Yes, he's a lot like Goku, but we've already got a Goku.

And that's exactly where Toriyama/ Toei have messed up. Brushing Goten aside because you can't have him growing up with Goku's personality and hairstyle is criminal. Picture this: you're a 7 year old kid with a father and older brother who've both captained your local basketball team to glory, and you're showing signs that you could surpass both. Once you've reached the right age, however, you're denied this opportunity because your father, who'd handed the captaincy to your older brother and retired years ago, happened to return from retirement and express an insatiable desire to lead the team forever. How would that make you feel?

Now, I'm not saying I understand how Goten feels cause they've never focused enough on him (has he ever had an internal monologue?!), but I just think the character's treatment was cruel. At some point, during the "We Gotta Power" opening era, you see Goten pop up from behind adult Gohan atop the Kinto un/ nimbus cloud exactly the same way kid Gohan did with Goku in "Cha la Head Cha La." It really looked like Goten was being touted as Gohan's successor the same way Gohan succeeded Goku during the Cell fight. It's infinitely hilarious how things had turned upside down and we ended up with a wimpy looking pair of Gohan and Goten in GT who'd get beaten up more easily than Yamucha and Tenshinhan. This was all for Goku's sake.

This isn't real life we're talking about. It's a TV show where you want a cast of characters that are different. In real life, you just want good players. Besides it's Goku's story. Screw the next generation.

[Rukawa11]

It's a TV show where you want a cast of characters that are different.

Then make 'em different from the get-go.

Besides it's Goku's story.

It's been 100% Goku's story up until he defeated Piccolo Jr. and about 80% his story until he beat Freeza. However, we saw very little of him in the next two major arcs: bedridden with a heart virus while Vegeta fought or confronted Androids 16 to 20 > training Gohan in the RoSaT while Piccolo, Future Trunks and Vegeta featured heavily in the main events of fighting Cell's different forms > Giving up against Cell and asking his son to take over and then watching that fight > Dying > Training Trunks and Goten to learn the Fusion Dance in the Boo Arc > Overseeing Gohan's development in the Kaioshin World.

The only brief moment in which he'd been in the spotlight was his fight against Majin Vegeta, and even then, Vegeta was more of the POV character as he continuously expressed his conflicting emotions while Goku served as an outlet.

What I listed above makes up two-thirds of the DBZ segment of the franchise, and in that segment, Goku had mostly been a mentor who's nurturing or overlooking the training of other characters. COME ON! You intend to argue that DBGT and Super are no different? Does it not seem like Goku was suddenly shoved down everyone's throats after beating Kid Boo as if this were the original Dragonball all over again? Do you think we'll ever have an arc like Cell or Boo where Goku is sidelined for a very long period while other characters surpassed him in the spotlight? Never. Goku is the main selling point of the franchise and Toei won't ever repeat the mistake of sidelining him like they did in Cell and Boo. I don't see that as a mistake, of course. In fact, I think this was the reason why those arcs were superior to subsequent material. It would've been disastrous to have a Cell arc with Goku being in his childish-hogging-all-the-spotlight persona of GT and especially Super.

Screw the next generation.

What was the point of creating Gohan, Trunks, and Goten, then? Having them all rot and decay before reaching 20 while their 45-50-year old fathers wave their eternally youthful bodies around?

Like I said, DBGT has been around for ages, and it now has DB Super to support it. With nearly 150 episodes shared between them, it isn't possible for many to distance themselves from the way Gohan, Trunks and Goten were presented.

[ABED]

Having other characters featured heavily doesn't make it not his story. Putting the focus back on Goku primarily isn't a step back at all. I don't like the idea of sidelining the main character just so another person can take his spot. After years as the main character, changing leads is a mistake. He has a level of emotional investment from the audience that accrued over time and you can't replicate that. Putting the focus back on the lead doesn't mean other characters can't get development. In early DB, Goku was unquestionably the lead, but the other characters got plenty of attention and development. Besides I wouldn't be using the Cell or Buu arc as good examples of the lead passing the torch. They were the least interesting of the four primary arcs in DBZ. And I don't like when people use the term "hog the spotlight" as if Goku is a primadona who demands his minutes. Goku is the lead of the story and the writers wanted to narrow the focus to him.

What was the point of creating Gohan, Trunks, and Goten, then?

Creating new characters doesn't mean passing the torch. It's just a new group of characters to tell stories about. They don't have to be the lead to have value in the story. Have you seen Logan? Great example where the story is unmistakably about Logan while introducing a new character. That was a story about him, not X-23. She plays an important part, but she supports HIS journey, not the other way around.

Then make 'em different from the get-go.

It's fine if there's a character that's like his father, but that doesn't mean the focus has to be on him. In GT with a smaller cast, I think it would've been a mistake to have two people who are exactly the same. Different personalities bouncing off each other makes for more interesting stories.

[DBZAOTA482]

Dragon Ball (original manga): Revolutionary concepts, Good execution

Dragon Ball GT: Great concepts, Poor execution

Dragon Ball Super: Lame concepts, Okay execution (putting the anime's bullshit aside)

[Metalwario64]

Where does the notion that Pan is annoying come from, I wonder. She's an emotional insert, that's really all she ever was, but she played that part incredibly for the type of show GT was. Is it just the fact that she has detectable emotions? I honestly cannot comprehend people's problem with GT Pan.

The main reason I disliked her when I was younger was her voice. I remember that, whenever I was watching GT on Nicktoons on Toonami when I was younger, I would always get irritated by it. I couldn't stand the nasally old lady sound that I felt it had. It still annoys me lol. After watching the original version years later, I liked and tolerated her a lot more than I had when I heard her FUNi voice. I've met others who didn't like her because of it as well.

Really? Thinking about it now, I guess I never was a fan of Baughman's performance, but it's far from intolerable. Maybe there's something to that, though.

Even when I was a kid, I couldn't stand Baughman's Pan. Even though many of the actors still didn't have a firm grasp on acting, and while Nadolny's Goku still didn't sound like a real kid, Baughman's performance always felt to me like someone trying to act like how they thought a kid would, and all of her lines had these weird inflections that made her sound sarcastic with every line she said. I feel like that irritated most people and caused the character more hate than she deserved. Yuko Minaguchi's Pan is much better acted and sounds much more like a kid.

Pan is really the only character besides Vegeta (and maaaaaybe Piccolo) to have any development in GT. She starts out as a huge brat who always gets in the way and yells at Goku, but by the time Baby reaches Earth, she starts being much nicer to Goku and shows genuine emotion (but still shows overconfidence). Vegeta's monologue episode (or, clip show ) was also a good insight to how far he has come as a character. Of course, these things are easy to miss these things since GT loved doing this:

[ABED]

You make a good point about Pan's development. Having her start off as an annoying kid gives the writers somewhere to go with the character. I like that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Again it all comes down to the writing and the performance to make you care about the change.

[dbs fanboy]

On the Pan topic.
To be honest when i watched GT, i only found Pan annoying in the early episodes as he was blaming Goku for all the shit they had to suffer in space when it was her fault; and at the same time forgetting the fact that it was her the one who suddenly decided to push the damn button when she wasn't even supposed to help grandpa find the dragon balls.

But as the series goes on these traits started to dissapear, in fact, i even forgot about this until someone pointed it out as one of "GT's massive flaws" in youtube (during my first years making contact with the fanbase).

Maybe the english dub makes her annoying idk, but honestly idk how could anyone stand that version with that awful ost........

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Maybe the english dub makes her annoying idk, but honestly idk how could anyone stand that version with that awful ost........

The Bricks include the English track with the Japanese score. I've seen a lot of dub talk lately, and several people seem to have forgotten that every release for the past 10 years has two dub tracks, one with each score.

[dbs fanboy]

Maybe the english dub makes her annoying idk, but honestly idk how could anyone stand that version with that awful ost........

The Bricks include the English track with the Japanese score. I've seen a lot of dub talk lately, and several people seem to have forgotten that every release for the past 10 years has two dub tracks, one with each score.

I honestly only know that version because almost every single clip i have watched in youtube with the funimation dub, had that score, i didn't knew that there was any version with the original score.