Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

[Deathbringer]

I want to point out that Toriyama is perfectly capable of writing good female characters and it's no more well displayed than with Arale Norimaki who manages to be a complete departure from most female shonen manga characters by:
- Being the main character
- Not having any sex appeal (obviously because she's a child)
- Being a completely bizarre creation who plays around with logic, acting nothing like how a girl (or a robot) is expected to act

Whenever she's in the roster of a Shonen Jump fighting game she's usually the best female character there, especially J-Stars Victory VS (Kagura from Gintama is similar)

I'm not saying that this is the only way to do a female character right, it's just that she's unique, memorable, doesn't play to any stereotypes and is probably one of the best manga characters of all time (definitely one of the best female characters in manga and one of the best comedy characters in manga) hell, if you wanted to make a list of the best female characters ever created in anything she's probably in the top 100...I may be starting to exaggerate now but still.

(seriously though, I'm not even sure if Dragon Ball passes the Bechdel test but Dr. Slump definitely does from the very moment Arale talks to Akane in class at the beginning)

I'm not saying that the fact he made this one really good female character excuses everything else it's just that DB was mainly a fighting series and to be blunt that was once traditionally seen as a man's thing, especially in Asia where the martial arts scene was mostly about men for centuries, and Toriyama is a guy who lives in his own little world and you can see that in almost everything he writes (Lady Red being the most extreme example). He's only sometimes offensive because of cultural differences and his own naivete, not actual hatred.

However this new story arc has had some great setup showing that there's actually gonna be a good few female fighters in the tournament, one of them is even shown keeping up with Vegeta in the opening, so I can't wait to see how it turns out. Before this we had that glorious few months when Vados was the strongest character in the series thus far (before they introduced Zeno) (and yes i know it's debatable that Whis is stronger but why would they even bring it up if it's not true?) and she was shown to be the calm, confident, cocky boss to a hysterical man so that was pretty funny.

(I can almost guarantee there have been like 10 comments debating non-DB politics since I started writing this, maybe the thread will be locked by the time I click send...)

[Basaku]

I don't understand representation. Well, I do, I understand it just fine, people want to relate to characters in the story they're reading, and that's fine, being the same gender can help with that. Rather, I don't understand the people who claim they want more representation in media. If their response to every criticism about forced representation is "they're still humans, you should be able to relate to them all the same" then why do they want representation in the first place? They should be able to relate to men just fine.

Everyone enjoys higher level of relatability and/or visibility among fictional characters to a smaller or bigger degree and there's little point on both "sides" to pretend it's not the case. It's just human, we often naturally drift towards familiar and people who are alike. That doesn't mean we're not capable of detaching ourselves and enjoying fiction featuring people people different from ourselves. Everyone is. The difference is that a white straight guy is literally sorrounded by countless fictional characters dominating most genres he can relate to from the day he's born in every spectrum of the popular media, fiction, advertising. Detaching himself from own gender/race/etc is a rare occurence for such reader, whether situational or volountary. The opposite is the case for minorities and often for women too (despite not being a minority). They have to detach themselves most of the time and that's obviously a completely different reality compared to rare instances.

The current comic book adaptation craze has been going on for over a decade with dozens of $200+ million blockbusters released and yet, the upcoming Wonder Woman is the first with a woman superhero as the lead. Ask yourself what would you think if the situation was reversed.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Your opening statement was about 'leftwing crazies' who wanna decapitate Europe.

Study some Islam and political science.

(...) accuse of literally the insane and worst, insult, throw in all the rightwing soundbites, memes (...)

I have my reasons to do so. I am always called fascist, rascist, xenophobe, homophobe, white supremacist and everything else by the left, even after writing one short sentence, of which only guilt is that it does not heavily bash the current government. Sorry my dear friend - I've tried everything, including extreme politeness and even political correctness - you cannot communicate with most of the left if you aren't the left yourself.

OK. You forced me to do it, but I am doing this the first and the last time. The meme shows that people tend to focus on extremely tiny problems, or look for them where they aren't present, while ignoring big problems at the same time. I was referring to what VegettoEX said and to looking for sexism in Dragon Ball. There are no problems in Dragon Ball. My usage of the meme had nothing to do with Trump, for #$%&@! sake.

(...) rephrase Beata Szydlo's dogmatic speech and then and pretend you were interested in sophisticated discussion on worldviews and everyone's just unfairly picking up on you.

The “speech” was 100% mine. I have my own knowledge in that dpeartment.

Fixed that for you guys.

At least somebody has a sense of humour here

If somebody wants to discuss stuff not related to Dragon Ball - contact me via PM or tell me, where should I register to talk with you. End of politics from my part.

[Soppa Saia People]

This is just awful. Trump being very openly racist and misogynistic, which can tell some people, that's it's okay to act like that, is much worse than some emails.

Trumps has a big mouth that he doesn't know when to shut, it's annoying but that's all it is. Those emails on the other hand not only put the country's national security at risk but she also got some people killed.

We can talk about this in PMs, but you crazy if you think the media didn't talk about the emails. It was one of the biggest talking points of the election, much more than what Trump was doing.

[ABED]

The current comic book adaptation craze has been going on for over a decade with dozens of $200+ million blockbusters released and yet, the upcoming Wonder Woman is the first with a woman superhero as the lead. Ask yourself what would you think if the situation was reversed.

The first within the last decade. There are other comic book movies with female leads (e.g. Supergirl, Elektra, and Catwoman). The problem is that they are awful movies. WW looks to be the first good one. If WW is profitable, I think we'll get more tent poles with female leads.

[Danfun64]

The op is the problem. The op is very clearly one of those people with Aspergers that doesn't know any better. He/she reads social justice tumblrs, then comes here(or goes to reddit) to whine about sjw's because he/she doesn't get enough attention on tumblr because no one follows him/her.
...
The op is just TRIGGERED!

That's fairly harsh. I don't know about OP, but I have Asphergers and sometimes I feel like I don't know enough about social interactions. For those of us who have impaired social intelligence, we all have to learn somewhere. If he justified in what he said? IDK, but he is justified in trying to figure this stuff out for himself.

OK. You forced me to do it, but I am doing this the first and the last time. The meme shows that people tend to focus on extremely tiny problems, or look for them where they aren't present, while ignoring big problems at the same time. I was referring to what VegettoEX said and to looking for sexism in Dragon Ball. There are no problems in Dragon Ball. My usage of the meme had nothing to do with Trump, for #$%&@! sake.

Let's be honest. Trump and Hilary are both terrible, but it can be argued that Hilary is the lesser of two evils. As for Dragon Ball not having any problems... Pedo Blue is staring at you.

[ABED]

Detaching himself from own gender/race/etc is a rare occurence for such reader, whether situational or volountary.

I don't think of it in those terms. If I enjoy something, it won't be because I've detached myself from my gender or race. I didn't have to detach myself from my nationality to enjoy Dragon Ball, I didn't have to detach myself from being male to enjoy Jessica Jones. Those stories and characters grabbed me. I didn't hate Iron Fist, but it didn't grab me like the aforementioned series did.

[Basaku]

I have my reasons to do so. I am always called fascist, rascist, xenophobe, homophobe, white supremacist and everything else by the left, even after writing one short sentence, of which only guilt is that it does not heavily bash the current government. Sorry my dear friend - I've tried everything, including extreme politeness and even political correctness - you cannot communicate with most of the left if you aren't the left yourself.

Sorry my dear friend but you haven't tried anything in this thread and no one called your anything and despite that you started right away with accusations, insults, memes etc. No one's fault but your own.

Detaching himself from own gender/race/etc is a rare occurence for such reader, whether situational or volountary.

I don't think of it in those terms. If I enjoy something, it won't be because I've detached myself from my gender or race. I didn't have to detach myself from my nationality to enjoy Dragon Ball, I didn't have to detach myself from being male to enjoy Jessica Jones. Those stories and characters grabbed me. I didn't hate Iron Fist, but it didn't grab me like the aforementioned series did.

The question is, do you think that the reason you don't really give it much though has completly nothing to with the fact/reality that majority of the media & fiction you consume across the years or even stumble upon features the leads who are most alike to you? Maybe some food for thought, if not that's fine too.

[Doctor.]

I don't understand representation. Well, I do, I understand it just fine, people want to relate to characters in the story they're reading, and that's fine, being the same gender can help with that. Rather, I don't understand the people who claim they want more representation in media. If their response to every criticism about forced representation is "they're still humans, you should be able to relate to them all the same" then why do they want representation in the first place? They should be able to relate to men just fine.

Everyone enjoys higher level of relatability and/or visibility among fictional characters to a smaller or bigger degree and there's little point on both "sides" to pretend it's not the case. It's just human, we often naturally drift towards familiar and people who are alike. That doesn't mean we're not capable of detaching ourselves and enjoying fiction featuring people people different from ourselves. Everyone is. The difference is that a white straight guy is literally sorrounded by countless fictional characters dominating most genres he can relate to from the day he's born in every spectrum of the popular media, fiction, advertising. Detaching himself from own gender/race/etc is a rare occurence for such reader, whether situational or volountary. The opposite is the case for minorities and often for women too (despite not being a minority). They have to detach themselves most of the time and that's obviously a completely different reality compared to rare instances.

The current comic book adaptation craze has been going on for over a decade with dozens of $200+ million blockbusters released and yet, the upcoming Wonder Woman is the first with a woman superhero as the lead. Ask yourself what would you think if the situation was reversed.

The opposite is not the case. Race or gender is never an issue that white male characters have to overcome, it's always something larger that affects every human being. People of color and women should easily be able to detach themselves. Of course sexuality, race and gender are always present, or almost always, but they're barely ever in the spotlight. White straight male characters should be relatable to everyone because their gender does not define them, their sexuality does not define them, their race does not define them. The same is true for any gay character whose sexuality may be a characteristic about the character, but whose sexuality does not define him, a black character who may deal with some discrimination issues but whose race does not define them and so on. Writing characters who deal with discrimination is fine, it becomes a problem when it's the only thing you can tell me about the character. It becomes a problem when all his arcs revolve around solving some kind of injustice relative to whatever minority he belongs to. That's what forced representation is, when you write a character for the sole purpose of pushing a message.

Comic books, as well as their adaptations, were a medium aimed at men. What do you expect? Companies are only now realizing how mainstream it really is. I'd find the opposite weird because comic books are not aimed towards women. But if everything had a woman protagonist, then maybe the target demographic changed and that would be fine.

[PelicanDynasty]

I think by and large the series does a good job with it's female characters, even when they aren't the main cast they hardly seem to be "stereotypical" other than the fact that they for the most part don't fight.

I get that Chi-Chi is kind of a negative stereotype in Japan as the "tiger mom" or whatever, but honestly I think she's a pretty great female character, even if she doesn't hold a fighting role. She knows what she wants and isn't going to let anyone (even her own father sometimes!) get in the way. When she wants Goku, she earns a meeting with him by beating up a punch of people at the WMAT. When she wants Gohan to study, she stands her ground against her husband and makes the kid study. I guess it's sort of basic, the "girl who doesn't take no for an answer" cliche, but I think it's nice that she doesn't just let everyone walk all over her.

Bulma has some traits in early DB that make her seem like kind of a wuss, but so does Krillin, it's mostly just to bounce off Goku's non-reactions to extreme danger. She ends up contributing a lot to the team, in a role that I think would be more "normal" if filled by an old guy like her father.

I'm no expert on what makes "feminism," but the women in DB are hardly a bunch of submissive housewives like people make it out to be.

[ABED]

The question is, do you think that the reason you don't really give it much though has completly nothing to with the fact/reality that majority of the media & fiction you consume across the years or even stumble upon features the leads who are most alike to you? Maybe some food for thought, if not that's fine too.

No. I'm rarely like the characters I find most appealing. There are elements here and there, but the characters I find the most interesting aren't because I'm like them. Often it's because I'm not like them that I do find them interesting. Sometimes I am like them, like Abed Nadir, but it's more a matter of execution than how much I relate to them.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

(...) you started right away with accusations, insults, memes etc.

...because...

I am always called fascist, rascist, xenophobe, homophobe, white supremacist and everything else by the left (...)

...and I have a right to have an opinion, which is “the left is crazy”. Your meme-obsession kinda proves that - I've explained its purpose and you still keep mentioning that. Prove me wrong on PM - I would gladly change my mind. Communication would help both sides.

Pedo Blue is staring at you.

As I explained in my previous posts, I do not think that making jokes about something improper is automatically a crime. Question: Would you ban rape scenes in war movies? They are definitely disturbing for some people.

Dragon Ball: here
Politics: PM

[Basaku]

The opposite is not the case. Race or gender is never an issue that white male characters have to overcome, it's always something larger that affects every human being. People of color and women should easily be able to detach themselves. Of course sexuality, race and gender are always present, or almost always, but they're barely ever in the spotlight. White straight male characters should be relatable to everyone because their gender does not define them, their sexuality does not define them, their race does not define them. The same is true for any gay character whose sexuality may be a characteristic about the character, but whose sexuality does not define him, a black character who may deal with some discrimination issues but whose race does not define them and so on. Writing characters who deal with discrimination is fine, it becomes a problem when it's the only thing you can tell me about the character. It becomes a problem when all his arcs revolve around solving some kind of injustice relative to whatever minority he belongs to. That's what forced representation is, when you write a character for the sole purpose of pushing a message.

Comic books, as well as their adaptations, were a medium aimed at men. What do you expect? Companies are only now realizing how mainstream it really is. I'd find the opposite weird because comic books are not aimed towards women. But if everything had a woman protagonist, then maybe the target demographic changed and that would be fine.

Of course. That's how it really is and should be percieved. But it's not and you know that. You say "race, gender, sexuality doesn't matter and doesn't define anyone" and I agree with you yet then we got Hollywood executive not wanting to greenlight anything but comic book movies with white straight male leads. Of course the history/origins of comic books from the 30s/40s/50s is what it is, but 'evidence' of what-used-to be traditionally male-focused entertainment/fiction having universal appeal has been showing up for decades, yet it gets ignored. Linda Hamilton and Sigourney Weaver were leading sci-fi action blockbusters to massive box office profits in the 80s, Angelina Jolie became the biggest action star of the 00s. Wonder Woman was one of the most popular and recognized characters across DC pantheon. And yet, Hollywood executives still act as if it was the 50s, scared to death of greenlightining action/comic-book summer tentpoles, wanting them to 'prove' themselves first. Clearly to them, race/gender/sexuality matters as they think it matters to the audience, whether correct or not.

EDIT: Also, at no point anyone said the arcs of women/minorties should revolve around being a woman or a minority so no clue where you getting that from and at

[VegettoEX]

Kojiro, you're way out of line and making absurd comparisons (equating jokes and rape scenes in war films is your latest example). Enough is enough out of you specifically, and to everyone: the topic at hand, please.

[ABED]

I am in favor of seeing more female characters in DB. I don't like to use the term "diversity" but a character of a different sex can be refreshing simply due to it being different, but I won't give points to the writers for simply adding a female character, they have to be interesting. I really do think that can change attitudes more than meeting the Bechdel test or some quota. Enjoying the characters for who they are is a good way to spur change in someone's thinking.

[Doctor.]

EDIT: Also, at no point anyone said the arcs of women/minorties should revolve around being a woman or a minority so no clue where you getting that from and at

Have you looked at any modern work of fiction? If they're black, they're facing racism, if they're female, they're facing sexism, if they're gay, they're facing homophobia. That's what the character arcs of minorities in modern fiction boil down to nowadays to the point a writer is almost forced to write characters that way, otherwise what's the point? People don't care about characters. People care about representation.

[ABED]

Criticism isn't any better. Far too much consideration is given to issues outside the narrative. I've seen a lot of praise for the female Saiyans in Super and much of it was "I've waited forever for a female Super Saiyan!" I wish novelty wasn't given so much weight when judging art.

[Basaku]

EDIT: Also, at no point anyone said the arcs of women/minorties should revolve around being a woman or a minority so no clue where you getting that from and at

Have you looked at any modern work of fiction? If they're black, they're facing racism, if they're female, they're facing sexism, if they're gay, they're facing homophobia. That's what the character arcs of minorities in modern fiction boil down to nowadays to the point a writer is almost forced to write characters that way, otherwise what's the point? People don't care about people. People care about representation.

Nonsense. "People", as in women and minorities don't need or want endless stream of stories about sexism or homophobia. They're important as they explore and remind us about history that happened, but most want to simply be part of the fun/world/ficition/etc, especially in the context that has little or none to do with emulating or recalling real world history. Girls & women don't want female SSJs to be persecuted wannabe-fighters who are literally devauled by the male characters because of their gender, they simply want female fighters. 1 may be cute and shy, 1 may be cocky and arrogant, both can totally have flaws and do dumb stuff and well as right moves that bring on the wins.

Seriously, we're talking an entire warrior race, how it is surprising that many women and men as well want female fighters to mix in the Saiyan cast is beyond me.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Kojiro, you're way out of line and making absurd comparisons (equating jokes and rape scenes in war films is your latest example). Enough is enough out of you specifically, and to everyone: the topic at hand, please.

The point was: If they show rape scenes in movies, why General Blue's behaviour should be censored? I feel that many of my points were completely misunderstood here, which suggests that I should go back where they understand me with this kind of stuff. I've tried to stop the political part, but my words were commented and I needed to refer to those comments - you can see that I tried to move this conversation to PM or other place.

[ABED]

I think it could be interesting if Saiyans, despite all their negative traits, weren't sexist. They value strength above all else, so as long as you are seen as powerful, that's all that matters. We know so little about the Saiyan race that I could see that working.