Does the Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[szopman]

Have you guys whatched last DBS episodes? Cause Gohan's Ultimate state was confirmed as a separate transformation. You may not like the series, you may refuse to calling it canon, but it's still an official source.

Besides, I'd say that the movies are more "canon" than the series. Why? Because they are the source material for DBS manga/anime. It's like saying that DBZ anime is canon, and DB manga is not, because Z is newer etc. And Toriyama did contributed to the writing of the movie and manga, and that's the fact.

And about SbG, if Ultimate Gohan is a separate transformation why SbG can't be too?

[ekrolo2]

Have you guys whatched last DBS episodes? Cause Gohan's Ultimate state was confirmed as a separate transformation. You may not like the series, you may refuse to calling it canon, but it's still an official source.

Besides, I'd say that the movies are more "canon" than the series. Why? Because they are the source material for DBS manga/anime. It's like saying that DBZ anime is canon, and DB manga is not, because Z is newer etc. And Toriyama did contributed to the writing of the movie and manga, and that's the fact.

And about SbG, if Ultimate Gohan is a separate transformation why SbG can't be too?

I don't give a toss about canon or any of that horse shit comicbook.com likes to throw around to get those clicks: Gohan's Ultimate form isn't a transformation, it's very conceptual thing is that it makes transformations pointless by giving the user all the power he can ever attain in his Base form without needing to waste energy by altering their bodies through different forms.

DB Super apparently making it into one is just as big of a screw up as when DBZ Movie 13 or GT did it.

[ssbgoku]

This is the topic which was on my mind for quite long time and just recently I came up with idea how it could work if we want to not bring any retconns or plot reasons, yeah not even writters's whim or writters's lack of knowledge or even worse not caring about relative comparisions between characters.

Well so I have came up with idea that Saiyan Beyond God is name for goku and then for vegeta when they reached and now can freely access godly power at will.
My idea is that this ssg power wasn't fully absorbed until last moment base goku punched Beerus's energy sphere, earlier it was semi merged ssg power with ss goku when time run out, I know it still sounds quite messed up and not easy to follow up but I also believe ssg isn't any multiplier but just some godly level which put characters in higher realm of power.

Long story short: Back then before even goku reached new transformation aka ssb, his ssg full power was equal to his ss3 transformation, making him 400 times weaker then ssg in base. Now we would have to scale how big jump was ssg from pre god ss3. Trying to keep it reasonal and normal I would lowballing ssg goku to above dbz ss vegetto level but below dbz ss2 vegetto level. Now what is the smallest gap between ss3 gotenks(suppossing bog ss3 goku reached this level) and dbz ss vegetto, I guess it could be 50 times difference, so let's make ssg 60 times stronger then ss3 goku pre god. This way we have:
pre for 100%sbg = 120% ssg. Possible in rof goku could contain all power of sbg(as he would be using ss3) without actually using it.

pre ssb:

ss3 goku - 100% sbg >= bog ss vegetto
ss2 goku - 25% sbg
ss goku - 12.5% sbg >= buuhan
base goku - 0.25% sbg - good buu (that why goku was still impressed with majin buu power when enraged)

post ssb (assuming ssb is x8 ss3 just because ss2=ss x 2 ss3 = 4 x ss2:

ssb goku - 100% sbg
ss3 goku - 12.5% sbg
ss2 goku - 6.25% sbg
ss goku - 3.125% sbg
base goku - 0,0625% sbg

Of course we have to keep in mind how much goku has progressed over time, so he would be ten times stronger in each form then back then in rof. If you believe it was still just sbg->ssb then fine but it was only until rosat where both goku and vegeta stabilized and improved ssb enough so they could bring back ss forms, so they could be highly supressed in lower form.

[szopman]

Have you guys whatched last DBS episodes? Cause Gohan's Ultimate state was confirmed as a separate transformation. You may not like the series, you may refuse to calling it canon, but it's still an official source.

Besides, I'd say that the movies are more "canon" than the series. Why? Because they are the source material for DBS manga/anime. It's like saying that DBZ anime is canon, and DB manga is not, because Z is newer etc. And Toriyama did contributed to the writing of the movie and manga, and that's the fact.

And about SbG, if Ultimate Gohan is a separate transformation why SbG can't be too?

I don't give a toss about canon or any of that horse shit comicbook.com likes to throw around to get those clicks: Gohan's Ultimate form isn't a transformation, it's very conceptual thing is that it makes transformations pointless by giving the user all the power he can ever attain in his Base form without needing to waste energy by altering their bodies through different forms.

DB Super apparently making it into one is just as big of a screw up as when DBZ Movie 13 or GT did it.

I don't give a damn what YOU are considering canon. In DBS animes, which is the official DBZ sequel, and an official source of information, Ultimate state IS a separate transformation. It is not an enhaced base form. It's a transformation. Gohan's base and Ultimate Gohan is not the same. He can goes SS, he can goes SSJ2 as well as he can go Mystic. He even transforms from SSJ2 into Mystic in the anime. So, you ay like it or not, but it is canon now )

And what exactly Movie 13 screwed up ??

[dbgtFO]

Until we see current Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan, I'll refrain from thinking of "Ultimate is a transformation in the anime" as confirmed.

[szopman]

So how would you called Gohan transforming grom SSJ2 into Ultimate?

[dbgtFO]

So how would you called Gohan transforming grom SSJ2 into Ultimate?

Ultimate overwriting Super Saiyan.

[ekrolo2]

Have you guys whatched last DBS episodes? Cause Gohan's Ultimate state was confirmed as a separate transformation. You may not like the series, you may refuse to calling it canon, but it's still an official source.

Besides, I'd say that the movies are more "canon" than the series. Why? Because they are the source material for DBS manga/anime. It's like saying that DBZ anime is canon, and DB manga is not, because Z is newer etc. And Toriyama did contributed to the writing of the movie and manga, and that's the fact.

And about SbG, if Ultimate Gohan is a separate transformation why SbG can't be too?

I don't give a toss about canon or any of that horse shit comicbook.com likes to throw around to get those clicks: Gohan's Ultimate form isn't a transformation, it's very conceptual thing is that it makes transformations pointless by giving the user all the power he can ever attain in his Base form without needing to waste energy by altering their bodies through different forms.

DB Super apparently making it into one is just as big of a screw up as when DBZ Movie 13 or GT did it.

I don't give a damn what YOU are considering canon. In DBS animes, which is the official DBZ sequel, and an official source of information, Ultimate state IS a separate transformation. It is not an enhaced base form. It's a transformation. Gohan's base and Ultimate Gohan is not the same. He can goes SS, he can goes SSJ2 as well as he can go Mystic. He even transforms from SSJ2 into Mystic in the anime. So, you ay like it or not, but it is canon now )

And what exactly Movie 13 screwed up ??

They have Ultimate be a separate thing like Super has and if you REALLY want to know what "canon" is to Dragon Ball, it's the original 42 volumes of the manga. Not that and three extra continuities that barely make sense as their own things based on vague scripts that are adapted by other people from Toriyama.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't think I'll ever fully grasp the roots of the whole "transformation/ not transformation" debate for Gohan.

I mean it's not like Gohan would run around in his daily life in a non-suppressed state, stronger than the same Super Saiyan 3 who can shake the planet itself, so what's exactly so inexcusably wrong about calling it a "transformation" he has access to? Granted, the original manga made it look like going Super Saiyan will make Gohan turn Ultimate, so an argument could be made about Ultimate being intended to supersede his Super Saiyan form, I guess.

They have Ultimate be a separate thing like Super has and if you REALLY want to know what "canon" is to Dragon Ball, it's the original 42 volumes of the manga. Not that and three extra continuities that barely make sense as their own things based on vague scripts that are adapted by other people from Toriyama.

Isn't this the same as arguing that the entirity of Super is not canonical? That's even more extreme a take on DBS as a whole, to be honest. By what they advertised, it seems clear that (in their eyes) the anime is intended to follow the Z/Kai adaptation, while the manga is, well, meant to be a follow-up of the manga story of better or worse. Now, whether or not they made any artistic accomplishments reviving the series is a whole 'nother can of worms...

@dbgtfo: technically, you'd already have something that falls along those lines in the very episodes portraying Ultimate Gohan's return. Goku asks Gohan why he won't transform into a Super Saiyan and I believe he says something like "I don't need to/ I'm looking for something different". You'd think that if I couldn't transform he'd say it, probably? Being honest, I myself would greatly prefer if Super went for the less confusing way the manga handled things back in the day, alas showing Ultimate as (again, apparently) "bypassing" the other Super Saiyan transformations. However, this stance was disproven in basically every iteration of BOG, in which Gohan could already turn into Super Saiyan and Ultimate at will. It seems like that's just what they go by with nowadays.

[Misirius]

Toyotaro retconned RoF manga when he skipped it in his firstvChampa Arc chapter. He explained what happened, but didn't show any of it just not to create more speculation.

In the manga canon, goku and vegeta go:

Base --> Let the power overflow --> SS forms.

Base --> Control the Ki --> Base God Ki (SSG) --> Turn Super Saiyan --> Super Saiyan Blue --> Keep even the aura from leaking --> Perfected SSB.

[GodKaio-Ken]

No it doesnt exist....people just need a way to justify poor power scaling by the show. If it existed logically noone except Vegeta could have a fight with Goku. If it was the way Toriyama intended it in the series I doubt it would be discredited by the manga AND not shown clearly in the anime.

It might even exist but at this point is not something that has been achieved.

My advice is to stop power scaling because its worthless in Super. The scenes were never intended to create one coheesive whole battle wise...there is no logic involved aside from a very vague and general character ranking that is only sometimes followed.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think the names of the forms are important.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't capture the meaning well.

This is why I like, "Semi-merged Super Saiyan God" for the yellow-haired Super Saiyan that Goku uses to fight Beerus in outer space. We never see this form ever again, making me think it was not a complete absorption of the god power yet.

Then "Merged Super Saiyan God" is when Goku drops out of yellow hair into black hair. He uses this against RoF Frieza and Copy-Vegeta.

[dbgtFO]

My advice is to stop power scaling because its worthless in Super. The scenes were never intended to create one coheesive whole battle wise...there is no logic involved aside from a very vague and general character ranking that is only sometimes followed.

I agree with this. At this point it's for the best to just view the power scaling on an arc by arc basis or even episode by episode.

[dragon boss z]

Until we see current Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan, I'll refrain from thinking of "Ultimate is a transformation in the anime" as confirmed.

When Gohan goes ultimate his bang hangs down. You can see this in his fight with Goku. When it base all his hair was straight up, when he went mystic his bang dropped down. Seems like a transformation to me.

[ekrolo2]

Until we see current Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan, I'll refrain from thinking of "Ultimate is a transformation in the anime" as confirmed.

When Gohan goes ultimate his bang hangs down. You can see this in his fight with Goku. When it base all his hair was straight up, when he went mystic his bang dropped down. Seems like a transformation to me.

Gohan's Ultimate in EoZ without the bang. Neither does he get the bang in Super when he powers up to attack Beerus.

[GodKaio-Ken]

My advice is to stop power scaling because its worthless in Super. The scenes were never intended to create one coheesive whole battle wise...there is no logic involved aside from a very vague and general character ranking that is only sometimes followed.

I agree with this. At this point it's for the best to just view the power scaling on an arc by arc basis or even episode by episode.

Yeah this. Not at all was a bit harsh of me but I agree with this. Chunks.

[dragon boss z]

Until we see current Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan, I'll refrain from thinking of "Ultimate is a transformation in the anime" as confirmed.

When Gohan goes ultimate his bang hangs down. You can see this in his fight with Goku. When it base all his hair was straight up, when he went mystic his bang dropped down. Seems like a transformation to me.

Gohan's Ultimate in EoZ without the bang. Neither does he get the bang in Super when he powers up to attack Beerus.

When does he go ultimate in EOZ? And maybe he already lost his ultimate form by BoG or at least couldn't fully access it. That would explain why he got stomped so bad. Buu was made out to be the strongest there.

[ekrolo2]

When Gohan goes ultimate his bang hangs down. You can see this in his fight with Goku. When it base all his hair was straight up, when he went mystic his bang dropped down. Seems like a transformation to me.

Gohan's Ultimate in EoZ without the bang. Neither does he get the bang in Super when he powers up to attack Beerus.

When does he go ultimate in EOZ? And maybe he already lost his ultimate form by BoG or at least couldn't fully access it. That would explain why he got stomped so bad. Buu was made out to be the strongest there.

He's Ultimate in EoZ because he has the Ultimate eyes and if he really lost Ultimate in BoG, why didn't he just power up to Super Saiyan to compensate for it? I'm also pretty sure that Piccolo makes a pretty big deal out of Gotenks getting his ass kicked too and Boo isn't the strongest by default thanks to LOL RAGETA! happening and failing to beat Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Gohan's Ultimate in EoZ without the bang. Neither does he get the bang in Super when he powers up to attack Beerus.

When does he go ultimate in EOZ? And maybe he already lost his ultimate form by BoG or at least couldn't fully access it. That would explain why he got stomped so bad. Buu was made out to be the strongest there.

He's Ultimate in EoZ because he has the Ultimate eyes and if he really lost Ultimate in BoG, why didn't he just power up to Super Saiyan to compensate for it? I'm also pretty sure that Piccolo makes a pretty big deal out of Gotenks getting his ass kicked too and Boo isn't the strongest by default thanks to LOL RAGETA! happening and failing to beat Beerus.

Well, I believe the original trailers had Gohan going SS in the anime's version of BoG, but then there was apparently outcry over how he was supposed to have Ultimate, and it was changed. At least, that's what I heard from someone on these forums. Certainly would've made RoF make a little more sense in that context.

===

As for the thread's original topic, I like this particular headcanon of mine based on how Gohan's power has been treated in the series, and how this could be applied to Goku. Basically, when Gohan had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai, he had access to all of his latent power and then some without needing to transform, but lost access to this power when he slacked on his training and lost his warrior mentality.

However, he's still extraordinarily strong, as he was left with a boosted base and SS forms, if one believes that he was indeed equal or superior to Piccolo in base form in RoF. If we apply this to Goku, we can say that SSG was equivalent to the initial Ultimate unlock, and that the form dissipating over time is equatable to Gohan losing access to Ultimate due to a lack of training and discipline.

Goku absorbs SSG's power into himself and making it his own, and we can equate this to Gohan still being able to access some but not all of his original power in base and SS form. Thus, we have Goku who can access some of SSG's power in all of his normal forms, but not all of it, and requires tapping into it another way. In this sense, SSB is like Ultimate, whereby it's the expression of all of this latent power and then some, with SSG's power being the power tapped into for Goku.

This leaves Saiyan Beyond God as the state of being that Goku and Vegeta are in when they aren't using SSB, able to utilize some but not all of SSG's power as their own. It's permanent, like Gohan's own boosted base and SS forms, but they need different forms to access the full extent of this power and extra, SSB and Ultimate.

[dragon boss z]

Gohan's Ultimate in EoZ without the bang. Neither does he get the bang in Super when he powers up to attack Beerus.

When does he go ultimate in EOZ? And maybe he already lost his ultimate form by BoG or at least couldn't fully access it. That would explain why he got stomped so bad. Buu was made out to be the strongest there.

He's Ultimate in EoZ because he has the Ultimate eyes and if he really lost Ultimate in BoG, why didn't he just power up to Super Saiyan to compensate for it? I'm also pretty sure that Piccolo makes a pretty big deal out of Gotenks getting his ass kicked too and Boo isn't the strongest by default thanks to LOL RAGETA! happening and failing to beat Beerus.

I don't know if eyes are enough to go off of.
And in BoG I think Gohan tried to access his mystic power and partially accessed it, but didn't get the full power boost. In the RoF arc he said he couldn't bring out all of his power so he had to go ssj. In BoG he got knocked out before he could try.
And I meant besides Regeta, lol. Of course he was the strongest.