If Goku joined the Justice League...

[RandomGuy96]

That's based on nothing more than a statement, though... unproven statements...

Actually, no. Not only is he noted to be able to do that by out-of-universe sources, he actually does do it on-screen in some expanded universe material like video games. Not to mention, the anime shows weaker characters destroying large stars. The reason he couldn't do this on the pages of the manga, as opposed to in anime, video games, etc. should be obvious: because that would mean the heroes lost.

Video games aren't canon,

Says you.

and my point is that if you accept unproven statements from one side, you have to accept them from the other side too.

I'm not accepting unproven statements, I'm accepting a statement proven by both out-of-universe confirmation and on-screen evidence throughout multiple sources (such as the anime, the video games, and the guidebooks). Anything for Superman with that level of proof should be equally valid as long as it doesn't contradict the main events. By the way, most of Superman's feats actually come from statements, usually from the in-universe narrator.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Says you.

Says pretty much everyone, unless you seriously believe nonsense like Broly beating Gogeta and Super 17 absorbing so 16...

I'm not accepting unproven statements, I'm accepting a statement proven by both out-of-universe confirmation and on-screen evidence throughout multiple sources (such as the anime, the video games, and the guidebooks).

That's supporting evidence at best, not proof. It would only be proven if it actually happened. Of all of those sources, I only consider the guidebooks canon, but I am very skeptical about much of what they say about the destructive power of various attacks (for example, some of the most powerful attacks from characters above SSJ level are stated to only have enough power to destroy half of a planet, and both Freeza and Buu's planet busters are said to do something weird to detonate the magma in the planet's core rather than destroy it directly. I also remember it said that one of SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks had the power to destroy the Earth if used continuously, which is weird because he should easily be able to destroy the Earth in a single attack. A lot of entries just seem to repeat what the characters said even if it didn't make sense.)

Anything for Superman with that level of proof should be equally valid as long as it doesn't contradict the main events. By the way, most of Superman's feats actually come from statements, usually from the in-universe narrator.

Not really. If you go by certain statements he comes off as ridiculously more powerful than he should be going by what he has actually done. Some people tend to believe that stuff (like he could change the outcome of a battle that was ripping apart the multiverse, or he lifted infinite weight, or overpowered the force of the Big Bang, etc.) But I am skeptical about all of that stuff because there is no real proof.

I just tend not to believe things until I see them.

[RandomGuy96]

Says you.

Says pretty much everyone,

Not anyone with control over canon.

That's supporting evidence at best, not proof.

It's fairly concrete proof actually. It's explicitly showing it happening on-screen in the case of the anime, and directly stating from an omniscient narrator's point of view that it can happen in the guidebooks.

Not really. If you go by certain statements he comes off as ridiculously more powerful than he should be going by what he has actually done. Some people tend to believe that stuff (like he could change the outcome of a battle that was ripping apart the multiverse, or he lifted infinite weight, or overpowered the force of the Big Bang, etc.) But I am skeptical about all of that stuff because there is no real proof.

"He can lift infinite weight" and "he can recreate the Big Bang" clearly aren't accurate statements of power, but hyperbole on par with random characters declaring themselves to be "omnipotent" (this happens all the time, in both Dragon Ball and DC comics). If Superman says, say, that he can crack a planet with a punch, and an out of universe source confirms that he can do this, I don't really see any reason not to believe it. Heck, I've seen that exact logic used to argue that Superboy could destroy a planet. That's the standard usually applied to him and other characters (or else Superman basically has no planetary feats, given most of those rely on the narrator telling us "this weighs as much as Earth" or "this punch contains enough energy to destroy the Earth").

For a DC example, see that New 52 page where Superman benches a random weight which is stated to weigh more than the Earth. For a non-DC example, see Thor (or was it the narrator?) stating that the Midgard Serpent weighed as much as Earth (despite that clearly not making any physical sense given what it does in that scene) and was going to constrict the Earth to death. I've never seen people doubt either of those feats even though they don't have omniscient out of universe sources confirming them.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Not anyone with control over canon.

Which would be who, by your understanding?

It's fairly concrete proof actually. It's explicitly showing it happening on-screen in the case of the anime, and directly stating from an omniscient narrator's point of view that it can happen in the guidebooks.

I don't recall Cell destroying the solar system in the anime. I already told you the issues I have with the guidebooks.

"He can lift infinite weight" and "he can recreate the Big Bang" clearly aren't accurate statements of power, but hyperbole on par with random characters declaring themselves to be "omnipotent" (this happens all the time, in both Dragon Ball and DC comics). If Superman says, say, that he can crack a planet with a punch, and an out of universe source confirms that he can do this, I don't really see any reason not to believe it. That's the standard usually applied to him and other characters (or else Superman basically has no planetary feats, given most of those rely on the narrator telling us "this weighs as much as Earth" or "this punch contains enough energy to destroy the Earth").

Actually both of those are based on narration saying 'this book is infinitely heavy' or 'this guy was using the full power of the Big Bang against him'. I still don't buy them.

[RandomGuy96]

Which would be who, by your understanding?

The people who own the license.

I don't recall Cell destroying the solar system in the anime. I already told you the issues I have with the guidebooks.

Characters weaker than or broadly comparable to him or comparable blow up stars in the anime, which is a comparable level of destruction.

I already told you the issues I have with the guidebooks.

No, you outlined your issues with entirely different books. At most that would cast those specific books in doubt, rather than the entire medium of databooks.

Actually both of those are based on narration saying 'this book is infinitely heavy' or 'this guy was using the full power of the Big Bang against him'. I still don't buy them.

I don't see how that contradicts what I said? In both cases they're clearly just hyperbole rather than actual measurements. Brainiac has out-muscled Superman before, is Brainiac stronger than infinity? How?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Which would be who, by your understanding?

The people who own the license.

So you think everything licensed is canon, even the stuff that completely contradicts other stuff?

Characters weaker than or broadly comparable to him or comparable blow up stars in the anime, which is a comparable level of destruction.

Actually there's a big difference... furthermore the first time I recall stars being destroyed was by Beerus and SSJG Goku, who are both way stronger than Cell.

No, you outlined your issues with entirely different books. At most that would cast those specific books in doubt, rather than the entire medium of databooks.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same books.

I don't see how that contradicts what I said? In both cases they're clearly just hyperbole rather than actual measurements.

I don't see how you're making the distinction. In both cases you have unproven claims but you decide one is hyperbole and the other isn't.

Brainiac out-muscled Superman before, is Brainiac stronger than infinity? How?

Okay, now apply that logic to any time Cell or anyone stronger than him ever had trouble with an attack that destroyed less than a solar system.

[Polyphase Avatron]

BTW, I think current Goku is a lot stronger than Post-Crisis and New 52 Superman. I just doubt someone like Cell is.

[RandomGuy96]

So you think everything licensed is canon, even the stuff that completely contradicts other stuff?

Within a certain boundary, yes. Because nothing has been declared non-canon. Logically, that only applies in a clear contradiction. Which this is not.

Actually there's a big difference... furthermore the first time I recall stars being destroyed was by Beerus and SSJG Goku, who are both way stronger than Cell.

You must have missed that scene in the Buu arc of Pure Buu (someone around four times as strong as Cell, and heavily implied to be weaker than him at that moment since 'initial' Pure Buu was someone Vegeta thought he could take) destroying a bunch of stars, or movie 8 where Broly blew up a bunch of stars, or movie 5 where Cooler and Goku explicitly destroyed the Sun on-screen (only for it respawn after a few minutes of the system darkening; likely Kaio's intervention, since that's technically his job and even the vastly weaker Kami could bring back entire planets).

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same books.

We're not. Cell's solar system busting being confirmed didn't happen in the Daizenshuu books, but a different, older guidebook that came out before the Buu arc.

I don't see how you're making the distinction. In both cases you have unproven claims...

Saying it won't make it true. It's been repeatedly proven throughout various sources. In fact, to a greater standard than most of Superman's feats, which rely almost entirely on in-universe narration.

but you decide one is hyperbole and the other isn't. Okay, now apply that logic

It is impossible to apply that logic to a clearly defined level like an attack that destroys a solar system, because being stronger than that is possible, while being stronger than infinity is, by definition, impossible. Because it's infinity. That's why one is clearly hyperbole and the other is not. Another clear example of hyperbole (though in this case because it defies logic like the Big Bang hyperbole, not because it is literally impossible) would be Goku claiming that Pure Buu could make the universe "go poof"; taken literally that means Buu is a universe-buster, but almost no one actually believes that.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Within a certain boundary, yes. Because nothing has been declared non-canon. Logically, that only applies in a clear contradiction. Which this is not.

Sorry, that just makes no sense to me. There's so much stuff that causes contradictions, and couldn't possibly fit anywhere on the timeline, etc.

You must have missed that scene in the Buu arc of Pure Buu (someone around four times as strong as Cell, and heavily implied to be weaker than him at that moment since 'initial' Pure Buu was someone Vegeta thought he could take) destroying a bunch of stars

The manga says he only destroyed a few hundred planets. As it's the original work I take it as higher canon. Also I don't know where you're getting these Buu/Cell comparisons from. Any form of Buu is much stronger than Cell.

movie 8 where Broly blew up a bunch of stars, or movie 5 where Cooler and Goku explicitly destroyed the Sun on-screen (only for it respawn after a few minutes of the system darkening; likely Kaio's intervention, since that's technically his job and even the vastly weaker Kami could bring back entire planets).

Aside from Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, the movies are completely non canon. DB Super has already established that Broly and Cooler never existed (Freeza considers reviving his father but never mentions a brother, and Vegeta had never seen Kale's transformation before).

We're not. Cell's solar system busting being confirmed didn't happen in the Daizenshuu books.

Then which books are you referring to?

Saying it won't make it true. It's been repeatedly proven throughout various sources. In fact, to a greater standard than most of Superman's feats, which rely almost entirely on in-universe narration.

I don't think you understand what proof means. It would only be proven if it happened. You can say it's plausible or likely, but not proven.

It is impossible to apply that logic to a clearly defined level like an attack that destroys a solar system, because being stronger than that is possible, while being stronger than infinity is, by definition, impossible. Because it's infinity. That's why one is clearly hyperbole and the other is not. Another clear example of hyperbole (though in this case because it defies logic like the Big Bang hyperbole, not because it is literally impossible) would be Goku claiming that Pure Buu could make the universe "go poof"; taken literally that means Buu is a universe-buster, but almost no one actually believes that.

My point was that if you say that Superman can't have infinite strength because there are instances where he doesn't show it, you can also say that Cell can't destroy the solar system because there are instances where he or other characters clearly don't have that power.

While you are correct that Cell being able to destroy the solar system is a much more plausible claim than Superman having infinite strength, the same kind of argument you used against the former can equally be used against the latter.

BTW, you can have quantities greater than infinity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_number

[RandomGuy96]

Within a certain boundary, yes. Because nothing has been declared non-canon. Logically, that only applies in a clear contradiction. Which this is not.

Sorry, that just makes no sense to me. There's so much stuff that causes contradictions, and couldn't possibly fit anywhere on the timeline, etc.

Again, you're not the one in charge of canon. If it's never been declared non-canon, then it's not. The burden of proof would rest on the person making the positive assertion that it is.

(in any case, I should also point out that the OP never specified "manga Goku" anyway, and in fact I would guess that most people think first of the anime when thinking of Goku)

The manga says he only destroyed a few hundred planets. As it's the original work I take it as higher canon.

You, again, have no control of the canon. So it doesn't matter what you think.

Also I don't know where you're getting these Buu/Cell comparisons from. Any form of Buu is much stronger than Cell.

Cell is comparable to SS2, which is four times weaker than SS3 (per the SEG), which is comparable to Buu. He's not orders of magnitude weaker.

Aside from Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, the movies are completely non canon.

Again, not according to the people who own the license. They haven't said anything about most of the movies, but according to them, Cooler at least exists in the anime continuity (this was stated in Daizenshuu 7 and then reiterated in Chozenshu 4). I also remember him being mentioned in RF promotional material, though it'll take me a while to dig that up.

Then which books are you referring to?

It was a booklet that came with the comics version of the Trunks TV special.

An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

I don't think you understand what proof means.

I don't think you do. It was directly stated to be an accurate claim by an out of universe omniscient source and directly shown on-screen in almost literally every source but the pages of the manga, where depicting it would be impossible because that'd mean Cell won. It's proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Much more so, in fact, then most of what are popularly considered "feats" for Superman.

My point was that if you say that Superman can't have infinite strength because there are instances where he doesn't show it, you can also say that Cell can't destroy the solar system because there are instances where he or other characters clearly don't have that power.

Actually, there are zero instances where characters "clearly don't have that power", because being able to condense the collateral from their attacks is an explicit ability of these characters. Usually, it is also generally understood to be an implicit ability of fictional characters in general, which is why Brainiac beating Superman into unconsciousness with his bare hands or Doomsday outright beating him to death aren't held against Superman even though the collateral from the blows that wounded Superman don't even come close to city-level, much less planet-level (and really, those blows aren't even energetic enough to launch Superman more than a few meters). It's a required secondary superpower for fiction in general to work along with "super anchoring."

While you are correct that Cell being able to destroy the solar system is a much more plausible claim than Superman having infinite strength, the same kind of argument you used against the former can equally be used against the latter.

If Superman having "infinite strength" wasn't a logical contradiction and something that was actually consistently backed up by other sources, then yes. Since it is a contradiction and never supported by out of universe sources, then nah, you really can't. As I said, if Superman had a feat or statement that was even half as well-backed as Cell's solar-system busting, then it'd be perfectly admissible evidence.

BTW, you can have quantities greater than infinity.

No, you cannot.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's pretty obvious that we're not going to make any headway here since we're approaching this from completely different perspectives. You're trying to say that everything is canon even though when it creates logical impossibilities and contradictions, when I don't understand how you could even have any kind of coherent argument under those rules. You also are arbitrarily declaring certain statements facts and others hyperbole. I don't see why the claim that Cell could destroy the solar system is any different than the claim that the Mageddon bomb Superman absorbed could vaporize half the galaxy, or that Imperiex was using the full power of the Big Bang against Superman when he overpowered it. In all of those cases, I remain skeptical.

Basically I'm just having a hard time understanding where you're coming from.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Oh, and there are numbers larger than infinity. A lot of the stuff we're arguing about is subjective, but this is one point where you're factually wrong. It's counterintuitive, but it's true, and it has been proven

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor% ... l_argument

[RandomGuy96]

It's pretty obvious that we're not going to make any headway here since we're approaching this from completely different perspectives.

Right then.

You're trying to say that everything is canon even though when it creates logical impossibilities and contradictions, when I don't understand how you could even have any kind of coherent argument under those rules.

No, I am stating the fact that nothing has been declared as non-canon, and that the burden of proof would be on the person making the positive claim that something is non-canon. DC Comics explicitly has events declared as canon or non-canon, and multiple versions of the main story that take place in entirely different continuities, but DB does not. An event being a contradiction would make the event in question either a plot hole (which isn't necessarily non-canon) or, at most, it would make that one specific event non-canon, not an entire work or series of works. This is especially prudent to bring up when the person making the positive claim is directly arguing against the license-holders (e.g. Cooler's movie being declared in-continuity with the anime).

You also are arbitrarily declaring certain statements facts and others hyperbole. I don't see why the claim that Cell could destroy the solar system is any different than the claim that the Mageddon bomb Superman absorbed could vaporize half the galaxy, or that Imperiex was using the full power of the Big Bang against Superman when he overpowered it. In all of those cases, I remain skeptical.

It's anything but arbitrary. Cell's statement isn't just a statement, it's an in-universe fact demonstrated on-screen in other sources and directly stated to be valid by an out of universe source. It's about as concrete as you can get short of actually letting Cell win in that arc, which is obviously impossible. That's a pretty stringent and clear standard of proof that pretty much none of Superman's 'feats' meet. If anything I'm being overly generous by accepting statements like "this thing Superman lifted weighed X tons" that don't have that level of confirmation, much less general and clearly hyperbolic statements like "using all the power of the Big Bang" or "with infinite strength", which are directly comparable to "Gohan-Buu is omnipotent" and "Buu will make the entire universe go poof." Statements that have similarly small amounts of supporting evidence.

Oh, and there are numbers larger than infinity. A lot of the stuff we're arguing about is subjective, but this is one point where you're factually wrong. It's counterintuitive, but it's true, and it has been proven

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor% ... l_argument

All I'm seeing there is someone redefining the term "infinity" to "not infinity". Since infinity, by it's literal definition, is a number greater than any other quantity. Or rather he's introducing an alternate definition of the word that departs from the most commonly-used definition. There is another definition of the word (according to Oxford) that also just means "great amount" and nothing more specific, which in context is probably what the comic was using.

[Polyphase Avatron]

1. I just don't understand how you can argue without a coherent idea of canon. It's obvious to me that both GT and Super can't have both happened, for example. And since Toriyama was much more involved in the latter, that's the one I go with as canon.

2. You've been trying to support it by citing things I don't consider canon, and I don't find that convincing. In fact, you could even say that the Imperiex Big Bang thing is more reliable, as we actually saw him destroy a universe on-panel with that power. I don't buy the claim that he was using all of it against Superman, but at least in this case there's actual proof (from the same story arc) that he did have as much power as he claimed. The Mageddon thing also has evidence, as Zauriel said that the Presence and the other angels were planning to build a new universe in case Mageddon destroyed the old one.

But still I'm not convinced that Superman actually overcame that kind of power.

3. They are infinite numbers, greater than any finite number. You can add 1 + 1 + 1 + 1... etc. forever and reach aleph zero, but never aleph one or higher. Some infinities are greater than others. For example, take the set of every integer (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.) going on forever. That's obviously infinite. But it's been proven that the set of all real numbers (which includes all integers and every fraction/decimal in between them) is larger.

[Mago Gosora]

I don't think any members of the Justice League speak Japanese so... I think any chance of communication is slim.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't think any members of the Justice League speak Japanese so... I think any chance of communication is slim.

Batman can speak like 50 languages. I'm pretty sure Japanese is one of them.

Green Lantern's ring can also automatically translate any language in the universe.

Martian Manhunter can read minds and translate that way.

[Mago Gosora]

Hm... then maybe. I think what someone said earlier about Superman initially getting along until he discovered Son's attitude towards dangerous opponents. I wonder who he'd try to fight first... or how the Justice League would react to all his different transformations. It would be funny to see him try and explain Ki to them.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Hm... then maybe. I think what someone said earlier about Superman initially getting along until he discovered Son's attitude towards dangerous opponents. I wonder who he'd try to fight first... or how the Justice League would react to all his different transformations. It would be funny to see him try and explain Ki to them.

Well I think some characters in the DC universe use it, but it isn't as powerful as it in DB, and it works differently...

[GigaDrill]

I can see Plastic Man loving Gokuu at first and Gokuu would make some joke about him being a lot like Buu in some way
Then he finds out Gokuu's battle lust and he'd act a bit more dickish around the saiyan

[JazzMazz]

The Justice League would flat out reject Goku's membership for being overly an stupid man child that constantly endangers the multiverse. They would probably try to send him to the phantom zone if things got out of hand.