Requirement to turn SSJ?

[Kaboom]

Lemmy's documentary-esque rants spendidly save the day once again!

Nice work, dude.

[Duo]

About Trunks being able to turn Super Saiyan fast because of Vegeta already turning into a Super Saiyan when he was concieved:
Is it sure that Vegeta already had turned Super Saiyan at least once at the concievent of Trunks? For all we know he could've failed to reach the level at that point.
It would have flattened out that theory :/.

Well, Vegeta not only became Super Saiyan during his training, but he mastered it and achieved a level of power that may well have surpassed Goku as a Super Saiyan, so I assume he did it about halfway through the 3 years of training, meaning Trunks to be concieved afterwards.

Also, I have the thought that Goten would have been conceived a week or two before #19 and #20 attack, explaining why Goten and Trunks are so close in power, assuming that had an effect on such (which I think so, indeed). Of course, most believe Goten was a "going-away" present...but there's no proof for this at all.

[Li'l Lemmy]

The thing, little Lemmy, is that your thoughts don't take in very much in the line of examples or evidence from the series.

Eh? Rebuttal! Fine, fine . . .

Goten sparred with Trunks at random intervals in his life and we hardly know how much Chichi really trained with him, and all he'd learn from her is technique.

Heh . . . it's true. We're never really given an out-and-out confirmation or any indication at all that Goten trained every day or even just every other day, and there's no way to tell at exactly what age he actually took up training. (Though personally, I've always assumed it to be early; I don't readily ascribe to the idea that Goten made his initial transformation in just the first or second time he fought ChiChi. But then, that's also assuming that ChiChi was the catalyst. Off-screen event, anyone?)

And even after he did begin a regimen . . . however frequent or infrequent it might have been . . . training with ChiChi is hardly the same thing as training with Piccolo or Goku or even Krillin. ChiChi may be tough, but she ain't that tough.

Trunks? No serious trainng from Vegeta until soon before the 25'th Tenka'ichi Budokai. So, most of it was just from sparring Trunks at unknown intervals.

As for Trunks . . . hmm. I'm not even sure I mentioned him; I went kinda Goten crazy back there. But the Movie 11 closing credits show us that they'd been friends for a long time before the events in question. I'm not saying that they play-fought every day either or that they fought particularly hard, but if they've really known each other for that long I have to believe that it'd be something more than just "unknown intervals," given the Saiyan instinct to fight . . . and the fact that they didn't have anyone else. Nothing was happening during those seven years. So while certainly not in the same vein as the life-and-death consequences of everything Cell and backward, it had to be something semi-regular and must have helped in some way to boost their powers even just a small degree.

Ya know, my problem is that there's just so little known about the chibis' early years that I've tried to piece them together in my mind. And yet sometimes I wonder why I even bother; isn't anything we come up with in this regard simply non-canon speculation no matter how good it sounds anyway? Oh, well . . .

Gohan...went through a year of harsh sheer training with Piccolo, fought and survived against the Saiyans, the Ginyu Force, and Freeza. Then he trained constantly with Piccolo and a Super Saiyan for 3 years, then had to spend around a month in the room of Spirit and Time before he first became Super Saiyan, and he still didn't become as strong as Goten probably was at the age of 7 as a Super Saiyan until he was probably halfway if not more through his training in the Chamber.

Ngh. I may have overestimated how many breaks Gohan got to have between Raditz and Buu, because now that I think about it he really never got one. Damn, I'm not even sure how I missed that. (Things always look better after a nap.) But definitely those first four years were about nothing, we can agree, and I think when compared to Goten at this age and the apparent talent he inherited from Goku that those years served to hold Gohan back. If you're bothering to keep track, of course.

Huh. I enjoy debating with you, Duo. Yer all right.

Li'l Lemmy, you have TOTALLY convinced me. You have brought me to the light side! (Not sarcastic).

Zapp Brannigan - "Please . . . you give me too little credit!"

No, I'm just kidding. Actually, you give me too much credit. You can see that there's a few unavoidable holes in my theory regardless of how well-worded it is . . . that's what happens when fans try to explain the unexplained. But I do this yakkity-yak thing a lot. After all, what else can we do?

Lemmy's documentary-esque rants spendidly save the day once again!

Nice work, dude.

Thanks for the kind words. But this was nothing. You want to see me get documental, check out my review of Movie 11 where I justify its existence against a fandom that hates it.

[Duo]

Huh. I enjoy debating with you, Duo. Yer all right.

Haha, I'm flattered! Honestly though, my main goal is to show that there simply is not enough information, canon or otherwise, to prove or disprove either theory. I think it was caused by Super Saiyan fathers, others think it was nurture. To completely push one or the other out the window is foolishness in my eyes, which is why I jumped all over Akira's condemming post (which was unexpected, because he has always been one of my favorite members here).

The point is, it doesn't really matter, and I'm glad you've kept things in context so well. You're great.

You want to see me get documental, check out my review of Movie 11 where I justify its existence against a fandom that hates it.

URL PLZ

[Li'l Lemmy]

URL PLZ

You have it now. Thanks for taking interest!

(Tired . . . going to bed . . . see everyone at noonish!)

[Akira]

Xyex, Duo, Lemmy, you guys all rank among my favorites here. I love these debates. I may well have been a bit overbearing on my presentation in my initial post, and as Duo put it, "Condescending". It made you guys determined to prove me otherwise didn't it? Made you drive to point out any holes in my argument, yes? I was perhaps wrong to do so, but it helps me better my own theories when I have the absolute best counterarguments from the absolute best Dragonball debate partners. (You guys!)

Forgive my method, but I appreciate that we've solidified the strong points of both theories and weeded out some of the weaknesses. I intended no disrespect towards you guys. I hold you in high regard.

While I will hold to my theory for my own thinking, I can respect the other viewpoint. My thought is that I brought up some strong points that keep it in the running as one of the top two most plausible ideas. If I got you to accept that much, then I feel I succeeded. I will also allow for your theory in my mind as well. As was said, neither can be proven entirely. I think in the end, we can all agree with that.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Xyex, Duo, Lemmy, you guys all rank among my favorites here. I love these debates. I may well have been a bit overbearing on my presentation in my initial post, and as Duo put it, "Condescending". It made you guys determined to prove me otherwise didn't it? Made you drive to point out any holes in my argument, yes? I was perhaps wrong to do so, but it helps me better my own theories when I have the absolute best counterarguments from the absolute best Dragonball debate partners. (You guys!)

Heh. Actually, I wasn't quite so surprised or miffed by said overbearingness as other people might have been. Haven't you been . . . er, "passionate" about this particular subject in the past, as well? I think I remember you saying how much the DNA theory bothers you more than just this one time.

Anyway, for the most part you were attacking other people's theories, not the people themselves. So no harm done, in my book!

[Panda]

So, um, is this debate over because the "OMG I LOVE (mastur)DEBATING YOU" thing is getting kinda gay... sorry guys but... come on...

Oh nevermind...

[Li'l Lemmy]

So, um, is this debate over because the "OMG I LOVE (mastur)DEBATING YOU" thing is getting kinda gay... sorry guys but... come on...

Oh nevermind...

Eh, nah. Yer pretty much right, Panda. And since we're not gay (unless someone wants to share something with the rest of us, heh-heh), perhaps it's time to draw this thread to a close.

Of course, if someone has something further to say about the topic at hand . . .

[Duo]

The debate was already over, Panda. I got the awesome and riveting link to Lemmy's Movie 11 review, and Akira clarified and displayed the integrity we all love him for, leaving most everyone on a happy note.

So no more need to stir things, eh?

[Panda]

I wasn't trying to cause a problem really. I was just trying to figure out if you guys planed on continueing your conversation. It's all good.

Until next time then?

[Xyex]

Haha, no. I just hadn't been able to post yet.

Well, nothing to that effect is EVER said or even hinted at in the Manga or the anime.. If you ever took a college course on Biology You'd know what I mean by "absurd". Yes, it is a fictional universe, but you can't just say "Other impossible stuff happens, therefore a crazy, no evidence myth has plausibility."

The mere fact that 3 Saiya-jins (Future Trunks(manga), Goten, Chibi Trunks) posess the ability to transform with no given cause denotes that they just *can*.

As for biology, I know biology, very well in fact. That's why I hold to the DNA theory. So, let's have a minor biology lesson! What *are* transformations? Well, they are a change, a mutation of the body, that occurs 'spontaneously at will', if you will. In effect, the body is mutating, changing, *transforming* during a transformatin.

So, now, we have the question, how? Nature has a few examples of creatures actually able to change their genetic make-up on the spot. I forget the type of frog, but they can change genders if the other gender is lacking. Now, we apply this concept to races with transformations. Transformations are a genetic modification to the body designed to improve it, make it stronger.

Well, we know that such things as this are passed down already within the Saiya-jin race. It's an absolute given what with all the Oozaru transformations running around. So then, what of Super Saiya-jin? Obviously the gene that causes the change lays dormant until activated, but what after that? The gene is no indicated at 'on' within the Saiya-jins DNA. By turn that would mark it as 'on' within future children.

Of course, the gene *can* go dormant again through extensive dissuse. Don't transform for a few decades, a generation or two, and the power goes away.

Gohan and Vegeta weren't out to kill Goten and Trunks. After Goku refused Raditz's "offer" he WAS out to kill Goku. Gohan being born stronger was a result of his mixed blood. It also supports my theory as evidence from the series. His power increased during *drumroll* "Temper tantrums".

Wow, maybe I actually thought about this before I went off making claims, you think? That very tantrum rage was what allowed him to become angry enough to become Super Saiyan 2 against Cell, as per Goku's plan. Goten and Trunks were of mixed blood too, so a similar rage could have brought about Super Saiyan earlier on because they had the pre-requisite strength? Seems logical to me..

Yes, Gohan's power increased when angry. A trait UNIQUE to Gohan. It wasn't Super Saiya-jin trying to activate, it was adrenline induced power rushes. Quite a difference. And no, Goku wasn't expecting Gohan to go SSJ2, he was merely expecting Gohan to do as he'd always done. Unleash his full power when he needed it and thus defeat Cell.

And a similar rage cause Goten and Trunks to ascend? Possible. Source for this rage? Non existant prior to Buu's appearance when they were ALREADY SSJs. Theory = dead.

He never said that.

Covered by Duo already.

That is not known as fact. Vegeta was in outer space training to fight the Androids when Trunks was born, and Goku was dead when Goten was born. It is just as likely that, since Bulma and Chi-chi knew of the Oozaru transformations saiyans make that they had the tails removed at birth.

Incorrect! This *is* known fact. Stated by Toryiama himself in an interview. Tails are recessive, Goten and Trunks were born without them. (Further proof genetics work differently in the Dragon Universe than here.)

Oh, of course. Drawing examples from the source material to explain things that happen later is far more "half-assed" and less likely than an uneducated fan myth assumption.

I'm the one drawing from the source. Your the one pulling things out of your ass. XP

[Mr. Announcer]

Well plain and simply genetics DO NOT work in the DBZ universe so I don't know why the arguments should have to try to include them. I think Gokuh and Vegeta being more powerful and/or super saiyan at the time of their sons' conception is a perfectly valid in-universe explanation for Trunks and Goten's ability.

Think about it, Mr. Toriyama may have just said that tails were a recessive trait off the top of his head but it is totally meaningless because it's just not possible. This implies that in order for the tail to be expressed the saiyan recessive gene would have to be paired with a human recessive gene, only one problem with that: there wouldn't BE any corresponding human alleles for the saiyan tail! As we can see from Gohan ( though this kind or interbreeding would never work) these unpaired alleles, or at least the one for the tail, are expressed and this should be no different for Goten and Trunks, therefore the recessive thing is total BS. Actually there's more than one problem with that, the saiyan tail is an entire appendage and is very obviously comprised of more than one gene that can just be expressed or not expressed ( the same probably holds for the super saiyan trait). So assuming that Goten and Trunks were born without tails, or anything about DBZ in general, making a genetic argument is impossible and pointless.

[Rocketman]

( though this kind or interbreeding would never work)

Seriously. In order to produce offspring that can themselves reproduce (Gohan), Saiyans and Humans would have to be the same species.

[Eclipse]

Humans and Saiyans are not from the same species. There is way too much proof to counter that. They may possibly be somewhat related (Like the whole humans and monkey thing), but no, they are not from the same species. Think about it. Saiyans have black hair, huge levels of power, slowed aging, and of course, the tail =)

Humans on the other hand, are more varied. That's all I have to say.

[Panda]

Well... it is Dragonball Z...

Saiyan and Human's kinda remind me of a Zonkey (the cross-breeding of a zebra and a donkey...) The only difference is that zonkeys cannot make baby zonkeys. Only Zebra's and DOnkeys can come totgether to make the baby zonkey...

Saiya-jin's are related to monkeys... Human's are related to monkeys... saiya-jins are related to humans!

[Duo]

Humans and Saiyans are not from the same species. There is way too much proof to counter that. They may possibly be somewhat related (Like the whole humans and monkey thing), but no, they are not from the same species. Think about it. Saiyans have black hair, huge levels of power, slowed aging, and of course, the tail =)

Humans on the other hand, are more varied. That's all I have to say.

He didn't say that Saiyans and Humans are the same species, he is saying they would have to be for Gohan to be able to reproduce if DragonBall followed real-world scientific rules.

Thus pointing out that we can't rely on real-life scientific rules when debating DragonBall.

[Xyex]

Humans and Saiyans are not from the same species. There is way too much proof to counter that. They may possibly be somewhat related (Like the whole humans and monkey thing), but no, they are not from the same species. Think about it. Saiyans have black hair, huge levels of power, slowed aging, and of course, the tail =)

Humans on the other hand, are more varied. That's all I have to say.

Rocketman didn't say they were. He said that under real world genetics they'd have to be in order to produce viable offspring. I.E., a Tiger and a Lion can have a Liger but a Liger can't have kids. A Human and an Ape *can't* have offspring (er, eww) at all as there's too much genetic difference.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Slowed aging? <.<;; Since when? >.>;;

And well, they would age normally anyway, by Saiyajin standards.

[Kaboom]

Slowed aging? <.<;; Since when? >.>;;

And well, they would age normally anyway, by Saiyajin standards.

If I recall correctly (Trans: I just read it) Vegeta says that Saiyans remain in their prime longer, because/so that they can fight as much as they do. Though I can imagine Saiyans would live a bit longer that humans; most cool aliens do.