The Problem with Gohan

[ABED]

As long as others are around to take charge he doesn't feel the urgency to step in.

That isn't subtext. It's not text. It's fans trying to make it all make sense. Cell is a very immediate danger. How is he any less of a danger than Vegeta, Freeza, or even Nappa? He has always wanted to step in to help his friends.

So does Vegeta. No one is denying his relevance, but ten chapters of being the center of action and then dealing the final blow does not make you the lead. Being the hero/saviour and being the lead are not synonymous.

In this specific context, it's a difference without a distinction. Gohan is clearly being put in the driver's seat. Okay, it's your opinion that he's not the main character, and even though I disagree, I don't care enough to argue this particular point as it would be too easy to get lost in this tangential issue. Clearly he's A lead and at the very least being set up to be the lead or at least have the torch passed to him. Him being so passive is not a good trait for someone taking that role, even if it would only be as a coda.

His behavior in the Cell fight is congruent with what we have known about his character until now, that he only fights because he has to, out of a sense of responsibility and desire to help others. What you find frustrating , others found intriguing.

It's not. Gohan may not have loved fighting but with the exception of the Saiyan arc, he has always fought to protect his loved ones. How does he not have to fight Cell? I can see why some believe it gels with prior characterization, but it doesn't. The Cell Games is full of very questionable writing and this is no exception.

[Michsi]

That isn't subtext. It's not text. It's fans trying to make it all make sense. Cell is a very immediate danger. How is he any less of a danger than Vegeta, Freeza, or even Nappa? He has always wanted to step in to help his friends.

And he still does. He is there to fight him. He just thinks his father could do it, because his father is eager to do it and his father can do anything, because his father is the best. More to this point below.

In this specific context, it's a difference without a distinction. Gohan is clearly being put in the driver's seat. Okay, it's your opinion that he's not the main character, and even though I disagree, I don't care enough to argue this particular point as it would be too easy to get lost in this tangential issue. Clearly he's A lead and at the very least being set up to be the lead or at least have the torch passed to him. Him being so passive is not a good trait for someone taking that role, even if it would only be as a coda.

It is when you consider what the author was going for during these scenes, and what Goku's role was in all of that.

It's not. Gohan may not have loved fighting but with the exception of the Saiyan arc, he has always fought to protect his loved ones. How does he not have to fight Cell? I can see why some believe it gels with prior characterization, but it doesn't. The Cell Games is full of very questionable writing and this is no exception.

Which he still does even now. That has never stopped being true, even if you don't see it as much in the arc. Goku has to tell him to slow down while they were flying towards the rendezvous point at the vert start, and you can see from Gohan's expression he was very much ready and willing to fight. He rescues Piccolo after he calls him for help. At no point does the Cell arc make me think he is less of a fighter than he was in the Namek arc or that he has lost any of his bravery. The story just doesn't shine the limelight on him, but I repeat, that's a narrative structure issue, not a character issue.
He doesn't trip over his feet to go fight Cell because others who he believes in more do that first. You can clearly see him struggling to believe Goku when he said he hadn't been fighting Cell at full strength. He didn't want to believe that he was stronger than his father, because that's how much he idolized him. He legitimately looks guilty when he admits he thought his father had been holding back. That's who he is and who he has always been; a gentlehearted, polite and extremely deferential kid that sometimes shows true fierceness, but that's not part of his natural disposition.

[ulisa]

He doesn't trip over his feet to go fight Cell because others who he believes in more do that first. You can clearly see him struggling to believe Goku when he said he hadn't been fighting Cell at full strength. He didn't want to believe that he was stronger than his father, because that's how much he idolized him. He legitimately looks guilty when he admits he thought his father had been holding back. That's who he is and who he has always been; a gentlehearted, polite and extremely deferential kid that sometimes shows true fierceness, but that's not part of his natural disposition.

I think his confidence issue and his admiration for his father are key points here. Gohan while fighting before in battles and intensely at that, is still a child and he’s at the age where most kids still believe their parents to be invincible. Goku happens to have the fighting prowess to back up that belief. Far as Gohan knows, his father is invincible. So when Goku tells him that he was going all out against Cell and it didn’t seem that way because he’s so much stronger, that is a serious blow to someone’s sense of reality. Even though Gohan hears his father, I don’t think he believed it. His attacks against Cell at the beginning just ring of someone unsure of himself and I don’t doubt that many of Gohan's thoughts were likely centered on “My dad couldn’t beat him, what chance do I have?” The fact that, in Gohan’s mind, he had failed in battle so many times before (his whole anger at himself over this very issue is what triggered his Super Saiyan) is also likely running through his mind.

So with the thought that this monster was stronger than his father and that everyone was counting on him (when he feels he has failed before continuously) it doesn’t surprise me a bit that he was reluctant to fight. I don’t necessarily think it was because he lacked the will too but rather he lacked the confidence to.

In the final attack against Cell (at least in English, I haven’t heard it in Japanese for a long time so this may be off) Gohan even laments that he hasn’t grown any stronger than the coward he was before and Goku flat out scolds him to “stop attacking yourself!”

So I think it all boils down to confidence.

[ABED]

But he's not there to fight him. When it's his turn, he says "it's pointless." Which is not something he's ever said. I get that he thought Goku could do it. He says as much, but he's not stepping up here. Aside from the whole side issue of telling Cell it is pointless, he doesn't ever take consciously take charge. All he does is do what others tell him, except when he's at the whim of his emotions. Other than that, he needs his hand held. That isn't Gohan. Problem is that he's shown those traits before, so it seems like it's in character, but not by that point. He had grown. The Gohan at the Cell Games is a regression done for the sake of drama.

It is when you consider what the author was going for during these scenes, and what Goku's role was in all of that.

How is being passive good for drama?

Which he still does even now.

Telling Cell "this is pointless" doesn't flow from Gohan not believing his father and being defferential to him. Confused? Sure, but this something ele entirely. It also doesn't flow from Goku giving up that Gohan would give up or need his hand held. I know Gohan was ready to help at the beginning of the arc, and that should've been him throughout the arc.

that's a narrative structure issue, not a character issue.

I know what is a narrative issue and what's a character issue. He's eager to help when he's in the background, but when it's time for him to step up, it's all Gohan needing his hand held. The explanation I often get from fans such as yourself is he changed in the Room of Spirit and Time.

I think his confidence issue

I get that Gohan wouldn't have the ability to consciously bring out his power and might even lack some confidence in himself, but this is precisely the sort of issue you solve in the climax - Gohan gains confidence, much like he did in the Saiyan arc. Though, it does feel like if Toriyama did that it would be repeating the same story beat.

[ulisa]

I always thought Gohan did gain some confidence by the end of Cell just not a life changing amount of it. If Goku has lived, I’d say—yeah, he likely would have changed significantly confidence wise like in the Saiyan Saga.

But Goku dies and doesn’t come back. So basically any victory Gohan gained by killing Cell is tainted by “But I let Father die.” You really don’t get a worse sense of failure than that.

[ABED]

I always thought Gohan did gain some confidence by the end of Cell just not a life changing amount of it. If Goku has lived, I’d say—yeah, he likely would have changed significantly confidence wise like in the Saiyan Saga.

But Goku dies and doesn’t come back. So basically any victory Gohan gained by killing Cell is tainted by “But I let Father die.” You really don’t get a worse sense of failure than that.

That's a transformative moment. Instead of getting him down, why not use it as impetus for the character to not let it happen again? If he's taking the lead role, why not use that to develop the character?

[ulisa]

It definitely could have gone both ways and while I agree with you that I would have preferred Gohan use it to build himself, I can also see just as much justification for him going the opposite way. I don’t like it but I understand it. When it comes to reactions to that kind of loss, the mind can choose dozens of different ways to deal with it.

For a kid that just lost his father and had confidence issues to begin with, that does a number on your psychological development. Gohan choosing to withdraw and essentially pushing aside any of his previous assertiveness and confidence while not my preferred reaction, still makes sense on an emotional level.

[Michsi]

How is being passive good for drama?

Drama can come out of literary anything, that's writing 101. In this case, it's because it clashes with Goku's personality.

Telling Cell "this is pointless" doesn't flow from Gohan not believing his father and being defferential to him. Confused? Sure, but this something ele entirely. It also doesn't flow from Goku giving up that Gohan would give up or need his hand held. I know Gohan was ready to help at the beginning of the arc, and that should've been him throughout the arc.

Actually it flows so perfectly, I'm a little surprised you brought it up. The reason Gohan tells Cell the fight is pointless is because Gohan is certain of his victory and that is because of Goku. Because of how much he believes in his father and his plan. He understood that his father's idea was to have Cell get him get angry and then defeat Cell with his rage boost. He is not trying to weasel out of a fight, he is trying to warn Cell because he doesn't want to kill him.
And that is him throughout the arc, that is his disposition at all times.

I know what is a narrative issue and what's a character issue. He's eager to help when he's in the background, but when it's time for him to step up, it's all Gohan needing his hand held. The explanation I often get from fans such as yourself is he changed in the Room of Spirit and Time.

As in it's not Gohan's growth getting reversed, or him being written out of character. He is the same as he was in the Namek arc, just as brave, just as eager, just as responsible- he just isn't used as much for a good portion of it because the story focuses on other characters more. I feel like I've written this a thousand times already. The only time he needed his hand to be held was when he lost his will to fight at the end, otherwise he simply being his usual deferential self.
Him being different after his time in the ROSAT isn't something I considered. He seems a little more mature and serious, that's true, but that just might be incidental.

So I think it all boils down to confidence.

It is a confidence issue as well, but self-confidence. Confidence in his father is another thing, and that he has in spades. As I said. he understood what his father intended when he chose him, and technically he was right about Gohan's anger being the key. It backfired at first simply because of the unforeseen emotional turmoil that neither had predicted would occur in Gohan.

[ABED]

Drama can come out of literary anything, that's writing 101. In this case, it's because it clashes with Goku's personality.

Except that if your character has everything fall in his lap and doesn't take steps to achieve their goals, or even have goals to begin with, that's a boring character. At some point, the character has to have something they want and needs to take steps on their own to get it. That's also writing 101.

and that is because of Goku. Because of how much he believes in his father and his plan.

There's nothing to suggest that AT ALL! He never knew Goku had this plan. He found out about it just before he began fighting. When he tells Cell, he's still digesting what happened. He doesn't know about his own power. Now it feels like you are changing your argument, completely.

just as eager

Minus him going to fight Cell and telling him he doesn't want to fight.

For a kid that just lost his father and had confidence issues to begin with, that does a number on your psychological development. Gohan choosing to withdraw and essentially pushing aside any of his previous assertiveness and confidence while not my preferred reaction, still makes sense on an emotional level.

But not what you want from a main character unless it's something they have to overcome, but we've seen this before. Gohan doesn't have confidence issues, except when he's first introduced through most of the Saiyan arc. Where does he have confidence issues until the Cell arc?

[Michsi]

Except that if your character has everything fall in his lap and doesn't take steps to achieve their goals, or even have goals to begin with, that's a boring character. At some point, the character has to have something they want and needs to take steps on their own to get it. That's also writing 101.

That's your opinion. That's your perception. 50K + fans and then some seem to disagree.
As I said, there are plenty of other shows out there that have passive characters, even as leads, and they did fine popularity wise. So writing seems to disagree.

There's nothing to suggest that AT ALL! He never knew Goku had this plan. He found out about it just before he began fighting. When he tells Cell, he's still digesting what happened. He doesn't know about his own power. Now it feels like you are changing your argument, completely.

Directly from the manga: "However, now I understand why father believes only I can defeat you, Cell. When I get angry I reach levels of which you can only dream of. That was dad's plan. Just you wait until I get properly angry." This comes right after he tells Cell fighting is pointless.

Minus him going to fight Cell and telling him he doesn't want to fight.

He doesn't want to kill. He plainly states that he doesn't want to kill Cell, which is what would likely happen if he got as angry as Goku wanted him to.

[ABED]

Except that if your character has everything fall in his lap and doesn't take steps to achieve their goals, or even have goals to begin with, that's a boring character. At some point, the character has to have something they want and needs to take steps on their own to get it. That's also writing 101.

That's your opinion. That's your perception. 50K + fans and then some seem to disagree.
As I said, there are plenty of other shows out there that have passive characters, even as leads, and they did fine popularity wise. So writing seems to disagree.

There's nothing to suggest that AT ALL! He never knew Goku had this plan. He found out about it just before he began fighting. When he tells Cell, he's still digesting what happened. He doesn't know about his own power. Now it feels like you are changing your argument, completely.

Directly from the manga: "However, now I understand why father believes only I can defeat you, Cell. When I get angry I reach levels of which you can only dream of. That was dad's plan. Just you wait until I get properly angry." This comes right after he tells Cell fighting is pointless.

Minus him going to fight Cell and telling him he doesn't want to fight.

He doesn't want to kill. He plainly states that he doesn't want to kill Cell, which is what would likely happen if he got as angry as Goku wanted him to.

I can't take your word for it that they are passive, as I dont' even know what you think passive means. What is interesting about a passive character? And nearly every book or blog or class on writing will tell you that passive characterization is boring. And it is understandable, what's interesting about someone not taking control and taking steps to achieve their goal and has to be pulled along? If you have concrete examples to the contrary, preferably ones I'm likely to have seen, then let's hear 'em.

[Michsi]

Except that if your character has everything fall in his lap and doesn't take steps to achieve their goals, or even have goals to begin with, that's a boring character. At some point, the character has to have something they want and needs to take steps on their own to get it. That's also writing 101.

That's your opinion. That's your perception. 50K + fans and then some seem to disagree.
As I said, there are plenty of other shows out there that have passive characters, even as leads, and they did fine popularity wise. So writing seems to disagree.

There's nothing to suggest that AT ALL! He never knew Goku had this plan. He found out about it just before he began fighting. When he tells Cell, he's still digesting what happened. He doesn't know about his own power. Now it feels like you are changing your argument, completely.

Directly from the manga: "However, now I understand why father believes only I can defeat you, Cell. When I get angry I reach levels of which you can only dream of. That was dad's plan. Just you wait until I get properly angry." This comes right after he tells Cell fighting is pointless.

Minus him going to fight Cell and telling him he doesn't want to fight.

He doesn't want to kill. He plainly states that he doesn't want to kill Cell, which is what would likely happen if he got as angry as Goku wanted him to.

I can't take your word for it that they are passive, as I dont' even know what you think passive means. What is interesting about a passive character? And nearly every book or blog or class on writing will tell you that passive characterization is boring. And it is understandable, what's interesting about someone not taking control and taking steps to achieve their goal and has to be pulled along? If you have concrete examples to the contrary, preferably ones I'm likely to have seen, then let's hear 'em.

When you asked earlier about what I consider to be an active and passive character I gave you two actual characters as example. Your reply was that you asked for definitions, but I deliberately avoided writing down one knowing every nuance and meaning of every word would be picked apart. And either way, passive character is such a broad term and since I don't have any intention of writing a page long essay of what I believe this character type entails I'll once again try to give examples.
Shinki Ikari from NGE; Frodo from LotR.
Keep in mind that this doesn't mean these characters don't have moments where they don't exhibit strong personality traits. No character should be a walking trope and fit perfectly with a set definition.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with everything that Michsi and ulisa have been saying here. Michsi has more than nailed how I view Gohan as a character as well as his role throughout the arc. The only thing that I'd change slightly, as for this discussion, is that I feel that deference is the more appropriate word to apply to this topic, as Michsi has mentioned. Or even in-active, due to the structure of the story. I feel that passive is leaning too far the other way. The little that Gohan did contribute may have not amounted to much, but at least he had no part in contributing negatively with having Cell reach his goal, like all of the gung-ho active characters had a hand in, unintentionally or not.

I also feel that the Goku VS Cell fight -- which Gohan was fully locked into -- and Gohan's initial skirmish with Cell are very important factors as far as the "it's pointless" dialogue is concerned. Gohan learned a lot about where he was at by experiencing both of those events first-hand. Cell's power had not overwhelmed him in the slightest and he was able to see and feel with a level head (the anime is not short of reaction shots). It's the first (only... ?) time in the story that the protagonist had not been involved in a come-from-behind battle with the big bad!

ABED, I think that you're adhering too strongly with following base literary guidelines. Dragon Ball is not authored by a master of writing of the highest literary reverence. Toriyama makes it all somehow work in spite of his do-it-as-he-goes style, which is one of its charms. Looking at this discussion objectively, you've contradicted yourself at times (I'm not going to point the instances out because they've been responded to already), and then you go on to dismiss someone else's view as "you must not know what that means", or "you're only making stuff up because you want to see what you want to see",etc. If anything, the areas in the narrative that can be open to interpretation are a mark in this arc's favor, imo. Someone can see from another angle that another does not, which is entirely fair. Likewise, it's also totally alright for someone to see the story the way that you do. However, the narrative here provides enough fertile ground for many of us to support and deduce why Gohan was in-character throughout the arc, imo.

I think that's it for me on the topic. Michsi has already covered many of my thoughts, and I'd just get caught up with the mistake of repeating myself. I'd rather not get caught up with the semantics and minutia of three select words of mine getting quoted and unnecessarily straying from the main point of the topic anyway. :p

Could the story have fleshed out Gohan's role better here? Well, that's entirely down to the structure of the story. Maybe it could have been. Was it completely necessary and vitally important to make it work with how the arc concluded? I don't think so.

[ABED]

The charm of DB comes from the world and the characters, not how it was written. And I don't prefer active characters because I read it's better in some book. I like them better because they take charge. Shit isn't just handed to them, nor do things simply happen to them. Active characters act, they don't simply react or do what they are told. I think most people prefer that out of their main characters. They want characters with tangable goals, even ones they may disagree with morally, and for them to take step of their own volition to achieve them.

"you must not know what that means",

I say that because I'm not seeing that from the responses, just "there are series with passive leads." It's a general statement and not a convincing one. Am I just supposed to take it on faith?

you've contradicted yourself

Such as?

at least he had no part in contributing negatively with having Cell reach his goal

THis isn't a superhero story. Active characters don't have to do moral things. So while Goku and Vegeta allowed the cyborgs to be created and Cell to reach his final form, they had a goal, whether we agree with it or not. Their goal was to get a good fight. The took steps to achieve their ends.

It's the first time in the story that the protagonist had not been involved in a come-from-behind battle with the big bad!

Goku vs. Ma Jr. says otherwise.

When you asked earlier about what I consider to be an active and passive character I gave you two actual characters as example. Your reply was that you asked for definitions, but I deliberately avoided writing down one knowing every nuance and meaning of every word would be picked apart. And either way, passive character is such a broad term and since I don't have any intention of writing a page long essay of what I believe this character type entails I'll once again try to give examples.
Shinki Ikari from NGE; Frodo from LotR.

You don't want to respond with a definition because I would analyze, and might disagree, but have no qualm with spending four pages with mainly you and me going back and forth?

Never saw NGE, and Frodo is more active and interesting in the movie than in the books. The extent to which he is active is what makes him interesting. Him sitting on his ass for months before taking the ring to the Elven city. And he is active. He has a goal - to take destroy the ring and save his home. In the movie, he was the one that chooses to take the ring all the way to Mordor. I can't recall how it is in the book, but he was the one that actively chose to be the ring bearer at the council of Elrond.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

It's the first time in the story that the protagonist had not been involved in a come-from-behind battle with the big bad!

Goku vs. Ma Jr. says otherwise.

Ah, yes. You're right. I had to think about that one. He was a temporary baddie.

[Michsi]

You don't want to respond with a definition because I would analyze, and might disagree, but have no qualm with spending four pages with mainly you and me going back and forth?
Never saw NGE, and Frodo is more active and interesting in the movie than in the books. The extent to which he is active is what makes him interesting. Him sitting on his ass for months before taking the ring to the Elven city. And he is active. He has a goal - to take destroy the ring and save his home. In the movie, he was the one that chooses to take the ring all the way to Mordor. I can't recall how it is in the book, but he was the one that actively chose to be the ring bearer at the council of Elrond.

Because I enjoy talking about things pertaining DB, and in this case about Gohan's character in the Cell arc, but an in-depth examination of what is what is not a passive character? No, no interest in that.
And as I said, a passive/reactive character doesn't mean they are like that all the time. DBS's Kale is as passive as can be and she still breaks out of that shell on occasion. There, another example.

[ABED]

You don't want to respond with a definition because I would analyze, and might disagree, but have no qualm with spending four pages with mainly you and me going back and forth?
Never saw NGE, and Frodo is more active and interesting in the movie than in the books. The extent to which he is active is what makes him interesting. Him sitting on his ass for months before taking the ring to the Elven city. And he is active. He has a goal - to take destroy the ring and save his home. In the movie, he was the one that chooses to take the ring all the way to Mordor. I can't recall how it is in the book, but he was the one that actively chose to be the ring bearer at the council of Elrond.

Because I enjoy talking about things pertaining DB, and in this case about Gohan's character in the Cell arc, but an in-depth examination of what is what is not a passive character? No, no interest in that.
And as I said, a passive/reactive character doesn't mean they are like that all the time. DBS's Kale is as passive as can be and she still breaks out of that shell on occasion. There, another example.

I'm not even asking for in-depth analysis, but at least a basic understanding.

Kale isn't taking over the lead role.

[Michsi]

I'm not even asking for in-depth analysis, but at least a basic understanding.

Which is why I gave you several characters as example. Examples should work better than any definition.

Kale isn't taking over the lead role.

I mentioned her as an example for passive characters that can still take action given certain circumstances, but still ultimately remain passive. And she can work as an general example of what counts as a passive character too. Never said anything about lead here.

[ABED]

But being the lead is vital to this thread or else I would've made it more general. I think passive characters have their place, but not as the lead, unless the writer is making some point to the audience.

Examples should work better than any definition.

Not if I don't know what you think they are an example of. If your understanding of a concept is incorrect, the example you choose will likely be incorrect as well.

[Michsi]

But being the lead is vital to this thread or else I would've made it more general. I think passive characters have their place, but not as the lead, unless the writer is making some point to the audience.

Jeez, I just gave one example of a character that is massively passive, but still has agency when the occasion calls for it. I already gave you other examples for the lead.
And to reiterate, Gohan is not the lead. Not in the Cell arc, not in his fight with Cell. Throughout the whole thing Goku very much maintains this status as it is his plan when Gohan starts the fight, it is his mess when he realizes what he has done, it is him that saves everyone from Cell's explosion, it's his words that give Gohan courage to not give up. Regardless of whether you think he is the second lead at this point, Gohan is there to for Goku to use and guide.

Not if I don't know what you think they are an example of. If your understanding of a concept is incorrect, the example you choose will likely be incorrect as well.

Did I gave you the impression that I don't know what a passive character is?
I could start asking if you wouldn't think the term reactive would be more appropriate since passive and reactive aren't exactly the same thing, but damn didn't I want this discussion to branch out further, because I got the gist of your post.