New Kanzenban Ending - "Daizenshuu EX" Style!

[Neon Z]

so the adding of that line may have been for the sake of making Z and GT tie in together. It kills any argument over Vegeta (of whom has a massive fanbase), and by effect, GT, as not being canon.

Huh? But, in GT, during the recap episode in the Evil Dragons Saga, which had Vegeta remembering his various fights against Goku, and Bulma explaining the SSJ4 transformation, Vegeta states that he wasn't training to become stronger than Goku anymore, he just wanted to know his limits.

So, if anything, the new ending makes DBZ even more unrelated to DBGT.

[dragonpearls]

so the adding of that line may have been for the sake of making Z and GT tie in together. It kills any argument over Vegeta (of whom has a massive fanbase), and by effect, GT, as not being canon.

Huh? But, in GT, during the recap episode in the Evil Dragons Saga, which had Vegeta remembering his various fights against Goku, and Bulma explaining the SSJ4 transformation, Vegeta states that he wasn't training to become stronger than Goku anymore, he just wanted to know his limits.

So, if anything, the knew ending makes DBZ even more unrelated to DBGT.

......Maybe. But mind you the GT was "Made for Television ." Toriyama did had a hand on it a bit, but we don't know how much. Its basically someones else competing the story.

The way I see it. The ending manga has nothing to do with GT because it wasn't from Toriyama himself.

When I saw that part when Vegita said that he would defeat him one day, there was a slite chance of hope that MAYBE there mite be a contusion.
......Or that Toriyama is playing with use.


Also, I beleve that Vegita would still have thous feeling of comepeting with Goku. Just because he has made friends with him, even respect him, there still that feeling of coemption.

Sometimes in life, we want to be better than someone else. And sometimes we ARE able to but feel like we aren't.

The way I see it....Thank God, the drive is still with him.

[Zackarotto]

We don' take too kindly tah colored folks 'round these parts, dragonpearls.

[B-kun]

The way I see it....Thank God, the drive is still with him.

It's shame he has no interest in continuing DB, though.

[Dayspring]

I want to see more about Pan and Oob!

Not together you fanfic fucks!

[Deus ex Machina]

I want to see more about Pan and Oob!

Not together you fanfic fucks!

What's wrong with that pairing? They're closer in age than most DBZ couplings. Plus he's Goku's student, she's his grandaughter...their's ties there.

[dragonpearls]

I want to see more about Pan and Oob!

Not together you fanfic fucks!

funny

.....Yah but there are so many pairing possibility, it's overwhelming.
I wonder if Toriyama would had dune something like that thou.

And Zackarotto, .......It helps me write, and its better than Black and White.

[omae no kaasan]

He wants to defeat Goku. Same thing he always has wanted to do.

How many times can I say it ^o^

Hell, after only 3 years I stopped hating my ex-girlfriend with all my heart and soul. Now I only just don`t care about her. Vegeta has been wanting to best Goku for how many years?

Let it go Vegeta. Toriyama rocks. He`s the funniest guy I don`t know....except for Hamaguchi

[James R. Cadwell]

I got the impression that Vegeta originally wanted to defeat Goku in order to demonstrate that he was superior -- and why shouldn't he be? He's the Prince of the Saiya-jin. By the end of the series, however, he had admitted that Goku was better than him. He just wanted to beat Goku fairly for the satisfaction of winning the battle -- he would still recognize that Goku is the greater fighter.

Whether intentional or not, it's slightly more subtle, three-dimensional character development than "HAY GUYS I WANTED TO BEAT GOKU UP B4 AND NOW I DONT!!!".

Hell, after only 3 years I stopped hating my ex-girlfriend with all my heart and soul. Now I only just don`t care about her. Vegeta has been wanting to best Goku for how many years?

That's not really an appropriate analogy. It's more like an aristocratic 18th century Englishman trying to beat an Irish villager at chess because he thinks he's superior to any simple commoner. Eventually he might come to realize that the Irish chess player really is just inherently better at the game -- it doesn't mean he can't still try to beat him. The motivation is coming from a different place.

[Jerseymilk]

I agree with omae on this. Yes, Vegita did admit that Goku was the superior fighter at the end of the Buu saga, but I think that when all was said and done, there was still a hope and desire in him that he would surpass and beat Goku in a fight. Remember that they never really did get to have that re-match, that he swore he would have with Goku such a long time ago. You can't count the one where he was Majin Vegita, because he wasn't himself and that one was interrupted anyway. No wonder he still had that desire! How many years was it with him? I don't think after having it constantly in the back of his mind for at least ten years, it's very easy to get rid of.

[James R. Cadwell]

No one is arguing that Vegeta wasn't still interested in beating Goku. It's just an issue of significance -- omae seems to think it means "OMG NO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AT ALL DB IS SIMPLISTIC".

[omae no kaasan]

It's more like an aristocratic 18th century Englishman trying to beat an Irish villager at chess because he thinks he's superior to any simple commoner. Eventually he might come to realize that the Irish chess player really is just inherently better at the game -- it doesn't mean he can't still try to beat him. The motivation is coming from a different place.

I could say it...but I won`t

omae seems to think it means "OMG NO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AT ALL DB IS SIMPLISTIC".

Okay, now, if you want to take this anywhere, I have a request of you. Please point out the post where I stated, or even inferred in the above fanboy text, caps, attitude you have presented. If you cannot find such, then I really have nothing to say at this juncture. Good luck. May the Irish chessman be with you.

[James R. Cadwell]

I COULD SAY SOMETHING FUNNY BUT WONT HURR HURR

It would be somewhat redundant, anyway, since it was intended to be a ridiculous analogy. That aside, I do think it accurately describes the situation in the series.

PLZ SHOW ME WHERE I've SAID ANYTHING IN THAT LUDACRUS STYLE CUZ IF YOU CANT I'm NOT REPLYING!!1!1!

Why? Is that an incorrect interpretation of your opinion? You've repeatedly complained that the series "went back to square one" with the new ending and that Vegeta's character didn't change. You've also said that DB is simplistic. I'm sorry if you are offended by the way I chose to restate what you've said in this thread, but it's not really a big deal.

[omae no kaasan]

Thank you. That is better than what I expected. I think you have helped make my previous point quite clear.

And if you read my posts in their entirety, I point out it is not only my opinion that DB has a very simple story, it is also the opinion of many Japanese fans. Because the story is simple does not mean I am attacking it. But then again, some people fanboys seem to take it that way. Regardless of how much I love the series, and if you know who I am then you know how much that is, I am perfectly happy pointing out Toriyama's faults, which he is probably the first to admit to. After all, Toriyama was/is not a true action/adventure mangaka. He is perhaps Japan's MOST beloved gag-mangaka and created the modern shounen action adventure genre which has had countless copies since then only recently culminating in three particular series that shine above the rest.

It doesn't hurt to admit DB has its problems ^o^

May I add, I never once said anything was actually wrong with a simple story. Which is precisely why I love when people blow things that I say out of proportion and put words in my mouth. It moots their point.

[oponok]

I'm just curious... are you one of those folks who love those upscale, intellectual animes? You all know the type: convoluted, complicated anime that really doesn't make much sense and, underlying all its magic and boring mystery, is nothing. Not to criticize anyone, but let's look at the other end of the scale, here.

I'm not an idiot. I love artistic, original, complicated films that showcase talent (Memento, Clockwork Orange, Requiem for a Dream, etc) and BEG to be analyzed. However, most anime I've seen that is praised as "BRILLIANT" is usually a) boring and b) involves aimless wandering of thoughts. Something that's intelligent shouldn't necessarily be SO BORING I WANT TO RIP MY EYES OUT AND HAPPILY CONSUME THEM BOTH. Perhaps it's the cultural borders, but I have indeed seen many great foreign films that have made me think about life, death, question my sexuality, etc. These allegedly "far before their time" animes usually involve bad plots, uninteresting characters, so-so to crappy designs, so on and so forth. And what we're supposed to learn from most of these is either something so astoundingly obvious and repeatedly shoved in our faces or something so hidden in such a badly written, poorly thought-out story (with infinitely more plotholes than Dragonball, that I come to wonder what they were thinking) that when all is said and done, no one cares. Perhaps it's true that mass-produced art doesn't work, but I've seen many cases where something remarkable comes along and where the vision ultimately shines through.

What does this have to do with Dragonball Z? Simplicity is the secret to Dragonball Z's complexity, whether or not Toriyama intended it (and he probably didn't, but it's still there). NOTHING ELSE takes the viewer through such a detailed interpretation of father and son relationships and teaches life lessons in such a remarkably subtle way that it almost seems like a true life story (with... you know... aliens that speak Earthen languages, kung-fu robots, and magic fighting).

BTW: For a good ol' intellectual-like time, watch that Hiabane Ranme show (or whatever it's called... you know, with those "but they're not angels" angels). The one episode I watch, they sit in a DAMN LIBRARY FOR TWENTY MINUTES! FOR CRACKIN' ICE, IF THE PEOPLE IN THE SHOW LOOK AND SOUND SO F***ING BORED, HOW THE HELL ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO ENTERTAIN ME?!!! Sorry to all Haibane "non-angel angel" fans of this show. I may be misjudging...

[Jerseymilk]

oponok, omae is far from being some anime snob that only likes "intellectual" anime and he's been a part of the DB fan community for a long time. His big favourites are DB and especially One Piece, also a very "simplistic" anime plot-wise. omae knows more than anyone how stupid the North American anime fan world can be, and I and many others know for a fact that he has the greatest respect and love for DB. You would realize that too, if you visited his site. And I don't find he's bitter sounding, just stating the facts realistically.

[oponok]

Sorry for sounding accusatory. I didn't mean to take it out on you, I just realized I wasted money on something that should have been artfully avoided. I am very sorry to you and your loved ones, but the idea that Dragonball is just so simple seems so untrue in comparison to most animes I've unfortunately had to witness before I came to many of my current revelations about most of television, the media, and humanity in general.

And contrary to what I may say, I'm an idiot for buying an anime magazine just for a demo disk.

Never again...

Never again...

Uh... and I like the new ending. Thumbs up.

[PsyLiam]

Oponok does make a good point though. If there was one thing I couldn't stand, it was people responding to complaints about The Architect in the second Matrix film with comments like "Oh, you obviously weren't clever enough to understand what he was saying." Yes, I was, but it didn't stop me from wanting to ram my fist through his face. Using big words does not make something clever. Using chess metaphors does not make something deep. Having people say "War is necessary. I hate it. But without war, there would be peace, and is peace better than war, or is war better? And what would peace be like? DIE MOBILE SUITS DIE!" does not make something clever.

Dragon Ball Z, plot wise, is certainly far from complex. Super new bad guy arrives, beats everyone up, good guys train, good guys win. Throw in some transformations, and you've got every DBZ saga and a few DB ones too. But that doesn't mean that the characters lack depth. Goku is a simple character, but not because of bad writing. Rather, it's because that's who he is. Not everyone in the universe walks around being guilt-ridden and angsty. And Vegeta and Piccolo do show a surprising amount of depth. It's easy to ignore, and some of it might be unintentional, but it's there. As James said, going from "I WANT TO KILL KAKARROT" to "I WANT TO BEAT KAKARROT" is, in some ways, actually much more mature characterisation than having him suddenly run around picking daisies. It's subtle, but there. It shows he's changed, but is still true to his original character. It's a lot more realistic than, say, Rogue's transformation from evil bitch queen to light-hearted southern gal when she first appeared in the X-Men comics.

[Dayspring]

Well said. (Who knew Liam had brain? )

[oponok]

You said it perfectly. Many Gundam series are BIG culprits of the "look at us, aren't we clever" racket. Having a military leader hold roses and soliloquize poetry does not constitute intelligent programming.

And as for character development, look at such popular animes as Kenshin...

Certain character who will not be named at beginning of his debut episode: Grr, I'll kill you, Buttousai!

Certain character at end of episode: You've shown me the error of my ways. I'll join you as your loser friend and help out, that is, when you tell me I can handle it. First, just let me sever my balls and toss them into the river, since I apparently won't be needing them, anymore.

Sorry again, omae.