Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

[Miracles]

Yes but they are still all cliche's. One showcased friendship differently than the other, was still standard.

Actually how the theme is differently presented does matter. How much a meta-theme controls the plot or character strength can determine if its a cliche when a trope is played straight and justified because 'genre'. A cliche is only a cliche if its a scenario that is comparable to something else of the same genre that is played out the same for the same uninspired results. Its why Super is compared to fairytail so often now and fairytail is not a well regarded show for its writing. Super using a theme worse than its own predecessor following genre cliches in modern years, lowers the writing authenticity with Z, even if they both share the same themes. In Z friendship was about respect after having a history with another character which concluded their growth. In super friendship is usually the overtime that creates an artificial climax and nullifies the relevance of power, or the law of power. Z never if at worst rarely did that.

Z used friends to grow stronger as a means of pushing each other as well as sacrificing them for power ups [Goku/Kuririn].
Same with Super but Super just took it to another level with them getting power ups from just thinking about their family/friends.
All of this is the circular cliche trope.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Yes but they are still all cliche's. One showcased friendship differently than the other, was still standard.

Z used friends to grow stronger as a means of pushing each other as well as sacrificing them for power ups [Goku/Kuririn].
Same with Super but Super just took it to another level with them getting power ups from just thinking about their family/friends.All of this is the circular cliche trope.

Problem right there. As I said, people tolerate it differently depending on how it's used. Narratively for character growth vs. Plot-armor for artificial climax.

You say that his opinion is "correct" as though this is actually an objective fact. At the end of the day it is just his opinion that it doesn't make sense, there is no "correct" or "incorrect" in this context.

Except the logic within an opinion can be validated based on the consistency of the evidence supporting the conclusion. The subjectivity is with the biases of entertainment level are used to justify an opinion based only off that. The other user just agrees with the sentiment and gave an example of UI lacking consistency with its hinted mention and inception after it was used with the silver hair. The obvious inconsistency is Goku being able to talk and giving speeches while achieving the form has had implied requirement of the body acting on its own usually when unconscious. Even if unconsciousness isn't always needed for the trigger, Goku being able to give speeches contradicts not using thought.

That said, Ultra Instinct ultimately boils down to focusing on a specific thing and emptying your mind. Goku did that very well and he achieved the form. Simple as that. It isn't as though he is incapable of thought before or after. Therefore, thinking of his friends at some point afterwards does not contradict this concept. The story emphasizes Goku's bond with his friends to show that contrast with Jiren and it is a big part of the plot of the tournament. I think it was handled well and it made conceptual sense. But I am certainly not going to call your opinion "correct" or "incorrect"

Except how does thinking of his friends remotely correlate to his body moving on its own and the push for Goku not thinking? It was the cheapest initiation of the form they did. Also the thing of Goku wining because of his bond with his friends was very last-minute as it was shown because Goku blatantly ignored Gohan to work together when it stared, and not to mention the power of friends thing is also a loathable meta-bias for Goku to win over Jiren with. Jiren is all powerful but lost because he didn't believe he had friends. Right. If you're going to say it makes perfect sens, without headcanon you're going to have to cite where the outcome camne from in the concept. Where did Whis ever mention this helping the use of the technique? Most of what he said contradicts that.

[Saturnine]

Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc

1. It means DBS>DBGT>DBZ>DB because every next series expanded DB world right?
2. True. DBZ is overall the worst series when it comes to any tactics. It's mostly brainless fighting.
3. You couldn't feel it even for a second tho (DBS being a midquel is a big factor here because you know that EVERYTHING will be ok)
4. Because they are ripoff of every possible DB/Z/GT villain
5. Some of them were awful fanservice, but some of them were good. The same goes for GT tho.
6. The same goes for GT. DBZ overall had the least amount of gags. Buu saga is the only exception.
7. Not sure what you mean and how is it better than Z and introductions of Vegeta, Frieza and Buu
8. You can't be serious...
9. The same goes for SSJ4 and it's very subjective if its better than Z or not. There are people who would prefer Gohan getting new form as well.
10. Can agree with that
11. No. Frieza after Namek is trash and overused. No matter if it's, DBS, GT or movies. I can't look at him.
12. He became to calm imo but he got some personality for sure
13. Zamasu is dead and everyone is alive so it's still kind of happy ending, especially for present timeline (it's 100% happy). it only might be bad ending for Trunks but he got another version of his future anyway.
14. So? It's like saying DBZ is better because it had more huge villains or something like that.

I totally agree that DBZ is overrated tho and people pretend it's holy and without issues. DBS have few things that are better than in Z obviously. Every DB series does.

I agree with everything.

And here people say GT is better than Super by miles.

It's better than both Super and DBZ. Now get triggered.

Are you really defending GT's humor in point 6? GT's humor was one of its most insufferable facets I'd say. Goku & the gang falling to the ground on planet Imecka not once but twice in a row (with not even the first one being funny), even though they can fly; Trunks getting dressed up as a chick; Pan wrestling Trunks in the spaceship; the Para brothers - all of it jarringly unfunny. Maybe some gags with the weaker shadow dragons were chuckle-worthy but that's really it.

[sunsetshimmer]

Goku & the gang falling to the ground on planet Imecka not once but twice in a row (with not even the first one being funny)

As funny as DBS Goku having the same instant transmission problem and visiting random places.

Trunks getting dressed up as a chick

Goku dressed as a chick in original series. It's called a reference.

Pan wrestling Trunks in the spaceship

DBS F. Trunks was wrestling Pan in Gohan's house and was actually struggling with her

the Para brothers - all of it jarringly unfunny

Not a big fan of them, but they are godly compared to DBS Pilaf or Jaco. Not to mention those clowns of love from last arc. I mean the 3 anoyying babes and 3 even worse idiots dressing as them.

And where was exactly DBZ more funny? It mostly didn't even try to be funny except Buu saga.

Or DBS?
Dancing/cooking/singing Vegeta? Vegeta with pacifier? Goku punching Monaka in face? Vegeta being one shotted by Arale? Learning Mafuba from video? Goku forgetting a seal for Zamasu? Goku fighting Beerus thinking he fights Monaka?
Are those the "funny" scenes then?

[VegettoEX]

"Funny" is subjective, sunsetshimmer. A lot of the stuff at the end there that you're seemingly dismissive of, yes, I think is genuinely funny. The Arale episode alone justifies Dragon Ball Super's existence to me, and I didn't even particularly enjoy the majority of the show.

It's OK not to like things, but all would do well to review the community guidelines and strive for fruitful, cordial conversations. There have been some incredibly inappropriate comments in this thread that do not and should not be seen as reflective of Kanzenshuu and its community. Please strive for something more.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Goku & the gang falling to the ground on planet Imecka not once but twice in a row (with not even the first one being funny)

As funny as DBS Goku having the same instant transmission problem and visiting random places.

Just like our good mod said, humor is subjective. But I have to add: the funny part of Goku's IT problem in Super wasn't the random places he visited: it was the reactions it got from the people he bumped into, like Bulma in a towel, and embarassed Vegeta. Just wanted to point that out

[sunsetshimmer]

"Funny" is subjective, sunsetshimmer. A lot of the stuff at the end there that you're seemingly dismissive of, yes, I think is genuinely funny. The Arale episode alone justifies Dragon Ball Super's existence to me, and I didn't even particularly enjoy the majority of the show.

It's OK not to like things, but all would do well to review the community guidelines and strive for fruitful, cordial conversations. There have been some incredibly inappropriate comments in this thread that do not and should not be seen as reflective of Kanzenshuu and its community. Please strive for something more.

I was just answering to another comment tho. I didn't start this small talk about gags. Saturnine did even though it wasn't related to topic in any way.

Just like our good mod said, humor is subjective. But I have to add: the funny part of Goku's IT problem in Super wasn't the random places he visited: it was the reactions it got from the people he bumped into, like Bulma in a towel, and embarassed Vegeta. Just wanted to point that out

I know and that's what i meant. It wasn't much funny to me. Just about as funny as Goku falling on head in GT. Just small forgettable gag.

[PFM18]

Goku & the gang falling to the ground on planet Imecka not once but twice in a row (with not even the first one being funny)

As funny as DBS Goku having the same instant transmission problem and visiting random places.

Trunks getting dressed up as a chick

Goku dressed as a chick in original series. It's called a reference.

Pan wrestling Trunks in the spaceship

DBS F. Trunks was wrestling Pan in Gohan's house and was actually struggling with her

the Para brothers - all of it jarringly unfunny

Not a big fan of them, but they are godly compared to DBS Pilaf or Jaco. Not to mention those clowns of love from last arc. I mean the 3 anoyying babes and 3 even worse idiots dressing as them.

And where was exactly DBZ more funny? It mostly didn't even try to be funny except Buu saga.

Or DBS?
Dancing/cooking/singing Vegeta? Vegeta with pacifier? Goku punching Monaka in face? Vegeta being one shotted by Arale? Learning Mafuba from video? Goku forgetting a seal for Zamasu? Goku fighting Beerus thinking he fights Monaka?
Are those the "funny" scenes then?

How do you always manage to bring up GT?

[sunsetshimmer]

How do you always manage to bring up GT?

Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece

I think it answers your question.

[PFM18]

How do you always manage to bring up GT?

Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece

I think it answers your question.

Yeah that makes sense. People appear to hold a fairly strong bias towards the series in the original manga versus the material that came after that. They put it on quite the pedestal if they cannot concede that Super didn't do ANYTHING AT ALL, better than DBZ.

[sunsetshimmer]

How do you always manage to bring up GT?

Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece

I think it answers your question.

Yeah that makes sense. People appear to hold a fairly strong bias towards the series in the original manga versus the material that came after that. They put it on quite the pedestal if they cannot concede that Super didn't do ANYTHING AT ALL, better than DBZ.

People threat DBZ as holy, perfect and always best series.
All series had some things better than DBZ, even though i don't like DBS, there are still things that Super did better to me.
People hardly ever compare DBZ with DBS or GT. Especially since DBS came out.
It's mostly DBS vs GT and i totally hate it.
Not to mention original series that for many "fans" doesn't even exist.

[VegettoEX]

There is no all-encompassing "people". There is no "everyone" or "everybody" that "only" does or says... whatever the accusatory flavor-of-the-week is.

Every single fan has their own unique viewpoint. They express this viewpoint at different times to different people in different places.

If you have a concrete comparison, dissection, or other type of analysis of your own that you would like to make, we're all ears. If you have a direct response to a post someone here has made, we're all ears. These broad, reaching, sweeping generalizations, however, are not appropriate and do not lead to any worthwhile conversation. They only serve as your own personal boogeyman to argue against.

[Saturnine]

Comparisons between GT and Super are quite natural, on account of them both being sequels to Z (well, apart from EoZ when it comes to Super). Though I agree that Z shouldn't be treated as untouchable and absolved from any criticism. Its pacing could be awful at times, and it was ridden with huge amounts of filler, much of it self-referencing, as though Toei wanted to pat themselves on the back for making it.

IMO the original DB anime was the best in terms of story progression, fight choreography and overall. But Super isn't so much worse than OG and Z that it can't even be compared with them. While it would come up short overall, it still has great things going on for it that either of the previous series lacks.

[Hawk9211]

Oh,there is one thing that super anime does which is unrivaled by anything official outside of games:Fanservice

[Miracles]

Problem right there. As I said, people tolerate it differently depending on how it's used. Narratively for character growth vs. Plot-armor for artificial climax.

Yep. Super focusing too much on just the thought of friends/speeches as a source to get stronger was not DB like.
Now I thought the comrade theme fit more in line with DB when Goku, Freeza and 17 fought together to win, it's more realistic, more akin to DBZ.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Yep. Super focusing too much on just the thought of friends/speeches as a source to get stronger was not DB like.
Now I thought the comrade theme fit more in line with DB when Goku, Freeza and 17 fought together to win, it's more realistic, more akin to DBZ.

It is. Its the reason why 17 & 18 ended up fighting with Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Trunks against Cell. They weren't friends, but they had to stop a bigger threat. Same thing with how Vegeta, Krililn & Gohan were allied on Namek, Or even Goku & Vegeta fighting with Mr. Satan against Kid Buu. There was no friendship speeches or power ups there. It was all either circumstantial or coincidental by circumstance. The friendship power is the trope of modern shounen that seems to be bleeding into DB now. Freza at lest stayed consistent against. He only helped out, to benefit himself and nothing more.