Is the criticism against everyone getting the Super Saiyan form a legitimate one?

[blain218]

Movie 6 was a different issue, but regardless, characters can be wrong or once again be hyperbolic, and as we see the gods in DB are often wrong. Kaio made big mistakes and Kaioshin made the motherload of mistakes.

Limitations makes for more creativity. Adding a number to SSJ isn't creative. And given that Goten and Trunks don't have much of an effect on the outcome of the story, what point was there in making them SSJ's, off screen at that?

The buu saga did a lot of things that amount to nothing,but i assume the reason Goten and Trunks got ssj was for the sake of a joke,so Vegeta and Gohan would react to surprise to it,it falls in line with everything relating to Trunks and Goten really,same way Gotenks was just a long drawn out joke.

Dragonball stopped being a gag manga starting with the 21st tournament with Jackie Chun . So that explanation doesn't work

[Kunzait_83]

As for the recent criticism people I think are more angry against the tingly in the back thingy than Caulifla and Kale having easily the form.

Getting mad over the "tingly back" thing is completely silly. All that is describing is the way in which Ki is channeled and focused through Meridian pathways and Dantian hemispheres of the body, which is a VERY basic and innate part of how Ki works throughout both all of wuxia fiction as well as Taoist mythology and folklore in general, and even functions as part of the bedrock of modern Chinese medicine even to this day. Any given work of fiction that has ever used Ki manipulation in martial arts as a plot device has used some variation or other of these basic concepts and "rules" for how they work. Generally speaking, unless its specifically stated otherwise, these basic tenants are generally considered as a given and universal across all forms of martial arts fantasy media that deals in them.

All the "tingly back" explanation did ultimately was rope in a VERY simple and basic piece of the Taoist folklore surrounding how channeling Ki through the body works (something that DB has from day one never been any stranger to by its very nature) and specified which Dantian region of the body Saiya-jin harness their Ki through in order to activate SSJ.

Channeling Ki through Meridian pathways and Dantian regions is something that it generally went without saying ALL characters in DB have been doing right along with ALL of their various Ki techniques and power ups from the very first Kamehameha onward (since again, these concepts and how they work are generally universal across almost ALL given wuxia works, or works that heavily derive from wuxia in some way, and are relatively common knowledge throughout most East Asian territories).

Its no different whether its Goku firing a Kamehameha or Ryu from SFII performing a Hadoken or Yusuke charging up a Spirit Gun or anything else along those lines: a character channels or manipulates their Ki in martial arts fantasy fiction of any sort, they're almost without question focusing that energy through specific pathways in the body, the details and particulars of which are laid out fairly clearly across countless relevant writings on Chinese Taoist mythology (and again, even in modern Chinese medical books, albeit obviously without the supernatural bent). SSJ just got a hairline bit of exposition about it in Super, and this was apparently enough to drive a part of the fanbase bonkers for reasons I couldn't even begin to pretend to guess at.

This should be thoroughly and completely harmless in-universe trivia (of the "huh, that's neat I guess" variety), one which in no way "invalidates" anything previously established about SSJ: its still a massive Ki power up exclusive to Saiya-jin, and its still predicated on martial training, emotions, and state of mind (all very wuxia concepts): all we now know is which specific hemisphere of the body they focus their Ki flow through to help trigger it. We've generally before now always gotten these very metaphysical state of mind and emotion explanations of how the characters trigger SSJ, and just this once we got a tiny scrap of detail relating to the physical end of it. Which again, to me is like.... ok. Fuck-a-doodle-doo.

And yet its almost comical the degree to which something this rudimentary and thuddingly basic to Chinese/Taoist martial arts mythology being elaborated upon ever so slightly in a series that from day one built its entire core foundation around ancient Chinese/Taoistic martial arts folklore has so rattled and triggered the present U.S. fanbase. I'm sure someone can better explain to me what the perceived issue is here, but for my part at this point, I couldn't even begin to guess (I'm just assuming up front that its somehow related to some sort of Power Levels/Power Scaling/strength debate nonsense, because this sort of thing usually is within this fanbase). Its such a great big piece of nothing, an incredibly offhand little detail, and the absolute LEAST of the things Super has done "wrong" throughout its run.

Don't get me wrong, there's genuine cripplingly severe problems with Super's writing and execution: its just that when so many fans shit themselves over these incredibly inconsequential details over asinine nitpicky strength-based minutia (that ostensibly get in the way of their made-up power level flowcharts) you end up with "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome any time someone else tries to raise issue with ACTUAL narrative problems of consequence within the series. Hence why this stuff ends up bothering me: every thread now, I always have to constantly check "wait are we ripping Super over dumbfuck fanboy power scaling nonsense that interferes with someone's made up numbers, or something that actually seriously matters to writing/characterization/storytelling?"

[Bruma rabu]

But it was no longer a gag manga. It had heavy doses of humor, but it wasn't inherently a gag manga.

I'm not saying its still a gag manga just saying the author him self prefers jokes over combat.

[blain218]

As for the recent criticism people I think are more angry against the tingly in the back thingy than Caulifla and Kale having easily the form.

Getting mad over the "tingly back" thing is completely silly. All that is describing is the way in which Ki is channeled and focused through Meridian pathways and Dantian hemispheres of the body, which is a VERY basic and innate part of how Ki works throughout both all of wuxia fiction as well as Taoist mythology and folklore in general, and even functions as part of the bedrock of modern Chinese medicine even to this day. Any given work of fiction that has ever used Ki manipulation in martial arts as a plot device has used some variation or other of these basic concepts and "rules" for how they work. Generally speaking, unless its specifically stated otherwise, these basic tenants are generally considered as a given and universal across all forms of martial arts fantasy media that deals in them.

All the "tingly back" explanation did ultimately was rope in a VERY simple and basic piece of the Taoist folklore surrounding how channeling Ki through the body works (something that DB has from day one never been any stranger to by its very nature) and specified which Dantian region of the body Saiya-jin harness their Ki through in order to activate SSJ.

Channeling Ki through Meridian pathways and Dantian regions is something that it generally went without saying ALL characters in DB have been doing right along with ALL of their various Ki techniques and power ups from the very first Kamehameha onward (since again, these concepts and how they work are generally universal across almost ALL given wuxia works, or works that heavily derive from wuxia in some way, and are relatively common knowledge throughout most East Asian territories).

Its no different whether its Goku firing a Kamehameha or Ryu from SFII performing a Hadoken or Yusuke charging up a Spirit Gun or anything else along those lines: a character channels or manipulates their Ki in martial arts fantasy fiction of any sort, they're almost without question focusing that energy through specific pathways in the body, the details and particulars of which are laid out fairly clearly across countless relevant writings on Chinese Taoist mythology (and again, even in modern Chinese medical books, albeit obviously without the supernatural bent). SSJ just got a hairline bit of exposition about it in Super, and this was apparently enough to drive a part of the fanbase bonkers for reasons I couldn't even begin to pretend to guess at.

This should be thoroughly and completely harmless in-universe trivia (of the "huh, that's neat I guess" variety), one which in no way "invalidates" anything previously established about SSJ: its still a massive Ki power up exclusive to Saiya-jin, and its still predicated on martial training, emotions, and state of mind (all very wuxia concepts): all we now know is which specific hemisphere of the body they focus their Ki flow through to help trigger it. We've generally before now always gotten these very metaphysical state of mind and emotion explanations of how the characters trigger SSJ, and just this once we got a tiny scrap of detail relating to the physical end of it. Which again, to me is like.... ok. Fuck-a-doodle-doo.

And yet its almost comical the degree to which something this rudimentary and thuddingly basic to Chinese/Taoist martial arts mythology being elaborated upon ever so slightly in a series that from day one built its entire core foundation around ancient Chinese/Taoistic martial arts folklore has so rattled and triggered the present U.S. fanbase. I'm sure someone can better explain to me what the perceived issue is here, but for my part at this point, I couldn't even begin to guess (I'm just assuming up front that its somehow related to some sort of Power Levels/Power Scaling/strength debate nonsense, because this sort of thing usually is within this fanbase). Its such a great big piece of nothing, an incredibly offhand little detail, and the absolute LEAST of the things Super has done "wrong" throughout its run.

Don't get me wrong, there's genuine cripplingly severe problems with Super's writing and execution: its just that when so many fans shit themselves over these incredibly inconsequential details over asinine nitpicky strength-based minutia (that ostensibly get in the way of their made-up power level flowcharts) you end up with "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome any time someone else tries to raise issue with ACTUAL narrative problems of consequence within the series. Hence why this stuff ends up bothering me: every thread now, I always have to constantly check "wait are we ripping Super over dumbfuck fanboy power scaling nonsense that interferes with someone's made up numbers, or something that actually seriously matters to writing/characterization/storytelling?"

You are right about "tingly back" thing, its stupid to get mad about it.

However, you are kinda wrong about power scaling. Any work of fiction that features a constantly changing set of powers inevitably leads to powerscaling. It exist in virtually all shonen battle anime/manga and even DC and Marvel Comics. Even Toriyama in some interviews sometimes and the official databooks like the Daizenshuu deal with powerscaling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iga5erIsxBg

Not trying to start an argument, just wanna get that out there. Toriyama himself never said "power levels are bullshit" (he's implied the opposite in multiple interviews).

[DragonBallKing]

Another idea i think should have been implemented is a time limit placed on the form after the initial transformation, that way instead of introducing the SSJ grades the cell arc would be about mastering the super saiyan form instead.

[Blondiebear_17]

I think it was bound to get mundane after a while no matter who achieved it. I mean the fact that the next generation is mixed with human blood has to have something to do with it as well as the good breeding anyway. I honestly don't know why people complain about the Universe 6 Saiyans ascending so fast they have a good excuse considering they evolved differently and they are obviously the best of what their race has to offer so it would be dumb if they couldn't I mean they definitely wouldn't have any business being in the tournament of power if they couldn't at least achieve Super Saiyan.