How strong are Android 18 and Piccolo are after the ToP?

[PFM18]

Honestly the powerscaling for DBS is bad enough but if you try to reconcile the anime and the manga it just becomes impossible. So I think the best option here is to just let everyone have their own interpretation, as you can't really prove one over the other.

It's really not that bad especially when compared to Z if you include all the garbage filler.

I usually don't though.

Well, even if you look at it comparing to the original manga, it is still relatively similar in terms of the consistency. Zenkais, Piccolo's power increases throughout the series, and the entire Buu arc for example being inconsistent in the original manga. Usually the scenes people claim are examples of inconsistencies in Super are just misinterpretations on their part.

[zarmack]

Wrong. That's Vegetto's multiplier. There's no general "Potara" multiplier. The idea that it applies the same boost to everyone is pure fan fiction. Shin, for example, clearly didn't get millions of times stronger by fusing with Kibito.

1. Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito. It was a generalized thing, like the SSJ multipliers. You are showing willful ignorance. Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier. The only one spewing fan fiction headcanon is you.

2. No one said a thing about Gohan still needing to go SSJ in the manga. You are putting words in my mouth. And even if its Ultimate Gohan in the manga, its still a bigger asspull than the anime.

3. Your pro-manga bias is at delusional levels. Its one thing to prefer the manga over the anime, but its another to completely disregard the anime even though it is also following Toriyama's outline (and the manga is objectively worse then the manga on many instances) and is more-or-less treated as the main version of Super by the franchise.

4. Goku's statements about him fusing with Mr.Satan was just him speculating. Its never portrayed as a definitive fact. We've never seen a successful fusion in the series result in a weaker being than any of its halves. So that argument of yours is also debunked.

[PFM18]

Wrong. That's Vegetto's multiplier. There's no general "Potara" multiplier. The idea that it applies the same boost to everyone is pure fan fiction. Shin, for example, clearly didn't get millions of times stronger by fusing with Kibito.

Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito. It was a generalized thing, like the SSJ multipliers. You are showing willful ignorance. Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier. The only one spewing fan fiction headcanon is you.

You're just corroborating his point. If there's a gap in power the multiplier seems relatively lesser.

[zarmack]

Wrong. That's Vegetto's multiplier. There's no general "Potara" multiplier. The idea that it applies the same boost to everyone is pure fan fiction. Shin, for example, clearly didn't get millions of times stronger by fusing with Kibito.

Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito. It was a generalized thing, like the SSJ multipliers. You are showing willful ignorance. Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier. The only one spewing fan fiction headcanon is you.

You're just corroborating his point. If there's a gap in power the multiplier seems relatively lesser.

No it doesn't. The formula is essentially the same.

[PFM18]

Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito. It was a generalized thing, like the SSJ multipliers. You are showing willful ignorance. Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier. The only one spewing fan fiction headcanon is you.

You're just corroborating his point. If there's a gap in power the multiplier seems relatively lesser.

No it doesn't. The formula is essentially the same.

You're describing as Kibitoshin to be a smaller increase because Kibito is so weak, which is exactly what he is saying.

[zarmack]

You're just corroborating his point. If there's a gap in power the multiplier seems relatively lesser.

No it doesn't. The formula is essentially the same.

You're describing as Kibitoshin to be a smaller increase because Kibito is so weak, which is exactly what he is saying.

But the formula is the same: Person A x Person B, or (A+B) x "tens of times". That's the point. What he was trying to argue was that the formula listed was only for Vegito, even though the series itself and multiple guides show that its the same of any 2 people.

[RandomGuy96]

1. Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito.

It literally states Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto, not A x B = C. It only ever gives a figure for Vegeta. There's absolutely nothing saying that's the multiplier for everyone, you're just making stuff up again.

Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier.

Kibito
Kaioshin’s attendant
First Appearance: chapter 437
Special Characteristics: An old-looking man who works as Kaioshin’s attendant. Though a good person, it seems that at first he was disdainful of Gohan and the other humans of the lower world, and did not trust in Super Saiyan power. His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn’t a Super Saiyan.

-Daizenshuu 4, p.55

Kibito has a battle power somewhere in the tens of millions. Kibitoshin is not tens of millions of times stronger than Shin.

No one said a thing about Gohan still needing to go SSJ in the manga.

Except you, in your elaborate fan fiction universe.

And even if its Ultimate Gohan in the manga, its still a bigger asspull than the anime.

Nope, it's literally the exact same scenario as the anime. He's on-par with Goku's SSB. No more, no less. And the manga actually stated why- he was training in the gravity chamber since some time before the Black arc up to the ToP arc, which is maybe a couple of years in-universe.

Its one thing to prefer the manga over the anime, but its another to completely disregard the anime even though it is also following Toriyama's outline

Toriyama's outline + 100 episodes worth of other stupid shit. I don't have to pay attention to the latter, only the former. Toei-original content is worthless to me.

Goku's statements about him fusing with Mr.Satan was just him speculating. Its never portrayed as a definitive fact.

It's in there for a reason and actually has basis in the manga unlike your never-ending streams of fan fiction.

[PFM18]

Nope, it's literally the exact same scenario as the anime. He's on-par with Goku's SSB. No more, no less. And the manga actually stated why- he was training in the gravity chamber since some time before the Black arc up to the ToP arc, which is maybe a couple of years in-universe.

The whole thing makes no sense because you have implications that Gohan is both weaker and stronger than CSSB Goku. Considering that CSSB is the equivalent of SSBKK, and Gohan was one shot by SSBKK and is shown to be inferior to normal SSB in the anime, and Gohan is able to draw with Kefla who was deemed "unmatched on the battlefield" and who's fusion component was CSSB level, it is very clear that Gohan's manga iteration is MUCH stronger and with absolutely nothing but off-screen training without even mentioning the Ultimate state or how that worked. In addition, it has Gohan saying possibly the dumbest line ever to rationalize why he didn't go SSJ when Kefla asked about it.

[zarmack]

Nope, it's literally the exact same scenario as the anime. He's on-par with Goku's SSB. No more, no less. And the manga actually stated why- he was training in the gravity chamber since some time before the Black arc up to the ToP arc, which is maybe a couple of years in-universe.

The whole thing makes no sense because you have implications that Gohan is both weaker and stronger than CSSB Goku. Considering that CSSB is the equivalent of SSBKK, and Gohan was one shot by SSBKK and is shown to be inferior to normal SSB in the anime, and Gohan is able to draw with Kefla who was deemed "unmatched on the battlefield" and who's fusion component was CSSB level, it is very clear that Gohan's manga iteration is MUCH stronger and with absolutely nothing but off-screen training without even mentioning the Ultimate state or how that worked. In addition, it has Gohan saying possibly the dumbest line ever to rationalize why he didn't go SSJ when Kefla asked about it.

And he still insists on shilling for the manga

[zarmack]

1. Neither the Daizenshuu nor the Super Exciting Guide states that the potara multiplier listed was only for Vegito.

It literally states Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto, not A x B = C. It only ever gives a figure for Vegeta. There's absolutely nothing saying that's the multiplier for everyone, you're just making stuff up again.

Kibito-shin didn't get that much stronger because Kibito himself is extremely weak, not because they got a different multiplier.

Kibito
Kaioshin’s attendant
First Appearance: chapter 437
Special Characteristics: An old-looking man who works as Kaioshin’s attendant. Though a good person, it seems that at first he was disdainful of Gohan and the other humans of the lower world, and did not trust in Super Saiyan power. His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn’t a Super Saiyan.

-Daizenshuu 4, p.55

Kibito has a battle power somewhere in the tens of millions. Kibitoshin is not tens of millions of times stronger than Shin.

No one said a thing about Gohan still needing to go SSJ in the manga.

Except you, in your elaborate fan fiction universe.

And even if its Ultimate Gohan in the manga, its still a bigger asspull than the anime.

Nope, it's literally the exact same scenario as the anime. He's on-par with Goku's SSB. No more, no less. And the manga actually stated why- he was training in the gravity chamber since some time before the Black arc up to the ToP arc, which is maybe a couple of years in-universe.

Its one thing to prefer the manga over the anime, but its another to completely disregard the anime even though it is also following Toriyama's outline

Toriyama's outline + 100 episodes worth of other stupid shit. I don't have to pay attention to the latter, only the former. Toei-original content is worthless to me.

Goku's statements about him fusing with Mr.Satan was just him speculating. Its never portrayed as a definitive fact.

It's in there for a reason and actually has basis in the manga unlike your never-ending streams of fan fiction.

1. Delusional again. The Super Exciting Guide clearly treats Vegito's potara multiplier as a universe thing.

2. Kibito (who was casually one-shotted by a surpressed Dabura) being weaker than Buu arc Base Gohan (who is weaker than his Cell Games arc base) only serves to support my argument. That's a pretty weak level of power.

3. Your still putting words in my mouth. Gohan's scaling in the manga is all over the place. For most of the ToP arc he was implied to be below God-tier along with A17, but when its time for him to fight Kefla, he's all-of-a-sudden beyond CSSB level. That's pure bullshit writing lmao. Whereas in the anime he is consistently shown to be around Golden Freeza's level (who's power never changes for the entire arc).

4. Toei has outshined Toriyama and especially Toyotaro multiple times. You sound like one of those people who'd argue that DB Minus is better than the 90's Bardock special just because Toriyama wrote it.

5. Yet again, there is not a single case of a successful fusion resulting in a weaker being. You are the one using baseless fan-fiction.

[ZombieVito]

Saying that Gohan training alone on a gravity chamber is better than training with Piccolo for several months is honestly hilarious.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's really not that bad especially when compared to Z if you include all the garbage filler.

I usually don't though.

Well, even if you look at it comparing to the original manga, it is still relatively similar in terms of the consistency. Zenkais, Piccolo's power increases throughout the series, and the entire Buu arc for example being inconsistent in the original manga. Usually the scenes people claim are examples of inconsistencies in Super are just misinterpretations on their part.

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

[PFM18]

I usually don't though.

Well, even if you look at it comparing to the original manga, it is still relatively similar in terms of the consistency. Zenkais, Piccolo's power increases throughout the series, and the entire Buu arc for example being inconsistent in the original manga. Usually the scenes people claim are examples of inconsistencies in Super are just misinterpretations on their part.

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

Well I should have made my message more clear. The "DB" portion of the story as in pre-Raditz has next to no power scaling inconsistencies, and the nature of it is just so different. The post-Raditz, "DBZ" portion of the story has fairly frequent power scaling inconsistencies and similar in frequency to the DBS anime.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well, even if you look at it comparing to the original manga, it is still relatively similar in terms of the consistency. Zenkais, Piccolo's power increases throughout the series, and the entire Buu arc for example being inconsistent in the original manga. Usually the scenes people claim are examples of inconsistencies in Super are just misinterpretations on their part.

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

Well I should have made my message more clear. The "DB" portion of the story as in pre-Raditz has next to no power scaling inconsistencies, and the nature of it is just so different. The post-Raditz, "DBZ" portion of the story has fairly frequent power scaling inconsistencies and similar in frequency to the DBS anime.

I would agree that there are more inconsistencies in the Z part, but still less than Super. The rates only become similar when you include anime filler.

[zarmack]

Well, even if you look at it comparing to the original manga, it is still relatively similar in terms of the consistency. Zenkais, Piccolo's power increases throughout the series, and the entire Buu arc for example being inconsistent in the original manga. Usually the scenes people claim are examples of inconsistencies in Super are just misinterpretations on their part.

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

Well I should have made my message more clear. The "DB" portion of the story as in pre-Raditz has next to no power scaling inconsistencies, and the nature of it is just so different. The post-Raditz, "DBZ" portion of the story has fairly frequent power scaling inconsistencies and similar in frequency to the DBS anime.

Some of the biggest power scaling inconsistencies in the whole franchise comes from Early DB. Master Roshi in the 2st TB arc could blow up the Moon, Yet King Piccolo (who was much stronger than Roshi) at his peak could only blow-up cities.

Out side of the Buu saga (mainly concerning Kid Buu), Z didn't really have much powerscaling problems.

[PFM18]

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

Well I should have made my message more clear. The "DB" portion of the story as in pre-Raditz has next to no power scaling inconsistencies, and the nature of it is just so different. The post-Raditz, "DBZ" portion of the story has fairly frequent power scaling inconsistencies and similar in frequency to the DBS anime.

I would agree that there are more inconsistencies in the Z part, but still less than Super. The rates only become similar when you include anime filler.

I think if you start including anime filler it becomes a landslide in Super's favor over Z era. That filler is AWFUL in terms of scaling consistency. Pre-Raditz is by far the most consistent, then Post-Raditz and Super are neck and neck, and then GT is like 12 steps behind them, with Z filler behind that and the Heroes anime behind that lol.

I disagree. The original manga has far fewer power level inconsistencies than either the Super anime or manga (especially considering how it's so much longer). Not that the original doesn't have any, but they are much less frequent.

Well I should have made my message more clear. The "DB" portion of the story as in pre-Raditz has next to no power scaling inconsistencies, and the nature of it is just so different. The post-Raditz, "DBZ" portion of the story has fairly frequent power scaling inconsistencies and similar in frequency to the DBS anime.

Some of the biggest power scaling inconsistencies in the whole franchise comes from Early DB. Master Roshi in the 2st TB arc could blow up the Moon, Yet King Piccolo (who was much stronger than Roshi) at his peak could only blow-up cities.

Out side of the Buu saga (mainly concerning Kid Buu), Z didn't really have much powerscaling problems.

That isn't a power scaling inconsistency. things like blowing up stuff is never consistent and we should never expect them to be consistent because Toriyama doesn't give a shit about them, nor does he know anything about physics or how they relate.

[RandomGuy96]

1. The Super Exciting Guide clearly treats Vegito's potara multiplier as a universe thing.

No they don't. You're just making shit up, as usual.

2. Kibito (who was casually one-shotted by a surpressed Dabura) being weaker than Buu arc Base Gohan (who is weaker than his Cell Games arc base) only serves to support my argument. That's a pretty weak level of power.

It's somewhere in the tens of millions, given that base Goku all the way back in the Freeza arc was at 3 million. Is Kibitoshin millions of times stronger than Shin? Obviously not. It's almost like your fan fiction is stupid or something.

Gohan's scaling in the manga is all over the place. For most of the ToP arc he was implied to be below God-tier along with A17,

Literally never happened. Piccolo said from the beginning that he would be relevant at Goku's level ("you think we can this thing without him!?") and his sandbagging at the beginning is explicitly explained as him holding back his power ("wait, don't release your full power yet!").

but when its time for him to fight Kefla, he's all-of-a-sudden beyond CSSB level.

He was always at CSSB level, so was Kale/Kefla.

Toei has outshined Toriyama

99% of Toei material is complete crap. But subjective opinions about the quality of Toriyama's or Toyotaro's work versus Toei's isn't relevant to the point I'm making. Which is that I'm not obligated to pay attention to any Toei-specific material.

Yet again, there is not a single case of a successful fusion resulting in a weaker being.

From a sample size of two. Yet we're clearly told it's possible.

I also like how you added "successful" out of nowhere so you could dismiss the multiple examples we do have of fusion making a weaker being.

Saying that Gohan training alone on a gravity chamber is better than training with Piccolo for several months

2 years > several months
gravity chamber alone > mountain training with a guy weaker than the eight year olds

Gohan training with Piccolo is useless for the same reason as Ten training with Chaozu is useless. Also, his power jump happened in the span of a morning, not months or years. This is due to Toei being dumb.

[ZombieVito]

1. The Super Exciting Guide clearly treats Vegito's potara multiplier as a universe thing.

No they don't. You're just making shit up, as usual.

2. Kibito (who was casually one-shotted by a surpressed Dabura) being weaker than Buu arc Base Gohan (who is weaker than his Cell Games arc base) only serves to support my argument. That's a pretty weak level of power.

It's somewhere in the tens of millions, given that base Goku all the way back in the Freeza arc was at 3 million. Is Kibitoshin millions of times stronger than Shin? Obviously not. It's almost like your fan fiction is stupid or something.

Gohan's scaling in the manga is all over the place. For most of the ToP arc he was implied to be below God-tier along with A17,

Literally never happened. Piccolo said from the beginning that he would be relevant at Goku's level ("you think we can this thing without him!?") and his sandbagging at the beginning is explicitly explained as him holding back his power ("wait, don't release your full power yet!").

but when its time for him to fight Kefla, he's all-of-a-sudden beyond CSSB level.

He was always at CSSB level, so was Kale/Kefla.

Toei has outshined Toriyama

99% of Toei material is complete crap. But subjective opinions about the quality of Toriyama's or Toyotaro's work versus Toei's isn't relevant to the point I'm making. Which is that I'm not obligated to pay attention to any Toei-specific material.

Yet again, there is not a single case of a successful fusion resulting in a weaker being.

From a sample size of two. Yet we're clearly told it's possible.

I also like how you added "successful" out of nowhere so you could dismiss the multiple examples we do have of fusion making a weaker being.

Saying that Gohan training alone on a gravity chamber is better than training with Piccolo for several months

2 years > several months
gravity chamber alone > mountain training with a guy weaker than the eight year olds

Gohan training with Piccolo is useless for the same reason as Ten training with Chaozu is useless. Also, his power jump happened in the span of a morning, not months or years. This is due to Toei being dumb.

ToP arc is not 2 years after the FT arc and Piccolo is stronger than the kids as proven by the Champa arc.

[zarmack]

1. The Super Exciting Guide clearly treats Vegito's potara multiplier as a universe thing.

No they don't. You're just making shit up, as usual.

2. Kibito (who was casually one-shotted by a surpressed Dabura) being weaker than Buu arc Base Gohan (who is weaker than his Cell Games arc base) only serves to support my argument. That's a pretty weak level of power.

It's somewhere in the tens of millions, given that base Goku all the way back in the Freeza arc was at 3 million. Is Kibitoshin millions of times stronger than Shin? Obviously not. It's almost like your fan fiction is stupid or something.

Gohan's scaling in the manga is all over the place. For most of the ToP arc he was implied to be below God-tier along with A17,

Literally never happened. Piccolo said from the beginning that he would be relevant at Goku's level ("you think we can this thing without him!?") and his sandbagging at the beginning is explicitly explained as him holding back his power ("wait, don't release your full power yet!").

but when its time for him to fight Kefla, he's all-of-a-sudden beyond CSSB level.

He was always at CSSB level, so was Kale/Kefla.

Toei has outshined Toriyama

99% of Toei material is complete crap. But subjective opinions about the quality of Toriyama's or Toyotaro's work versus Toei's isn't relevant to the point I'm making. Which is that I'm not obligated to pay attention to any Toei-specific material.

Yet again, there is not a single case of a successful fusion resulting in a weaker being.

From a sample size of two. Yet we're clearly told it's possible.

I also like how you added "successful" out of nowhere so you could dismiss the multiple examples we do have of fusion making a weaker being.

Saying that Gohan training alone on a gravity chamber is better than training with Piccolo for several months

2 years > several months
gravity chamber alone > mountain training with a guy weaker than the eight year olds

Gohan training with Piccolo is useless for the same reason as Ten training with Chaozu is useless. Also, his power jump happened in the span of a morning, not months or years. This is due to Toei being dumb.

ToP arc is not 2 years after the FT arc and Piccolo is stronger than the kids as proven by the Champa arc.

Exactly. If Piccolo was weaker than Goten and Present Trunks then he would have never been considered for Champa's tournament.

[PFM18]

1. The Super Exciting Guide clearly treats Vegito's potara multiplier as a universe thing.

No they don't. You're just making shit up, as usual.

2. Kibito (who was casually one-shotted by a surpressed Dabura) being weaker than Buu arc Base Gohan (who is weaker than his Cell Games arc base) only serves to support my argument. That's a pretty weak level of power.

It's somewhere in the tens of millions, given that base Goku all the way back in the Freeza arc was at 3 million. Is Kibitoshin millions of times stronger than Shin? Obviously not. It's almost like your fan fiction is stupid or something.

Gohan's scaling in the manga is all over the place. For most of the ToP arc he was implied to be below God-tier along with A17,

Literally never happened. Piccolo said from the beginning that he would be relevant at Goku's level ("you think we can this thing without him!?") and his sandbagging at the beginning is explicitly explained as him holding back his power ("wait, don't release your full power yet!").

but when its time for him to fight Kefla, he's all-of-a-sudden beyond CSSB level.

He was always at CSSB level, so was Kale/Kefla.

Toei has outshined Toriyama

99% of Toei material is complete crap. But subjective opinions about the quality of Toriyama's or Toyotaro's work versus Toei's isn't relevant to the point I'm making. Which is that I'm not obligated to pay attention to any Toei-specific material.

Yet again, there is not a single case of a successful fusion resulting in a weaker being.

From a sample size of two. Yet we're clearly told it's possible.

I also like how you added "successful" out of nowhere so you could dismiss the multiple examples we do have of fusion making a weaker being.

Saying that Gohan training alone on a gravity chamber is better than training with Piccolo for several months

2 years > several months
gravity chamber alone > mountain training with a guy weaker than the eight year olds

Gohan training with Piccolo is useless for the same reason as Ten training with Chaozu is useless. Also, his power jump happened in the span of a morning, not months or years. This is due to Toei being dumb.

ToP arc is not 2 years after the FT arc and Piccolo is stronger than the kids as proven by the Champa arc.

Right. Piccolo is way stronger than he was in the Buu arc, and it certainly wasn't a 2 year gap. Not even close.