I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

[ZeroNeonix]

Why do you guys insist on saying that instead of reading Toei in their own words? Not only that, it does have plot relevance that is staring you right in the face - to place a limitation on Goku after he had become so powerful.

Why do people accept that as a good excuse? Never in the history of Dragon Ball has a character been nerfed just so they could build themselves up again. Goku, in particular, has been in a steady pattern of growth from episode 1 of Dragon Ball to the End of Z. You don't build tension by going backwards, but by increasing the steaks. You go bigger, not smaller. It's not like Goku was this invincible juggernaut, either. It would have been perfectly reasonable to have someone like Trunks catch up to him in power. Vegeta was at least in the same ball park of power too, considering they were both planning to battle in the tournament in the End of Z until Uub showed up and changed their plans. Toriyama even gave TOEI the perfect excuse for keeping Goku and Vegeta in fighting shape, with the explanation that Saiyans remain youthful longer than Earthlings. Yet they decided to reverse Goku's progress anyways. Heck, even if they wanted to nerf Goku so that he wouldn't overshadow the rest of the cast, they failed to ever make those other characters relevant anyway.

If you want to have a satisfying followup to Z, you create a bigger bad guy. Super did this with Beerus, Golden Frieza, Goku Black, etc. Now Super, unlike End of Z, actually does have a problem with god-tier characters like Goku and Vegeta being too powerful for characters like Krillin to get involved without fans calling BS. But the solution is to build the rest of the cast up, not to lower the more powerful characters to their level.

[Lord Beerus]

When he teleports much of the world's population onto Baby's planet, his power runs out, hence why Piccolo ends up dying. While your argument isn't completely without merit, the writers mined Goku's limitations one more time for drama.

Goku running out of power had nothing to with him being a child. Goku was a SSJ4 when he was teleporting all the people of Earth. He just simply burned out all of Ki from using Instant Transmission so much. Leading him to reverting back to his childlike base form.

It has to do with him being a child. Yes, SSJ4 burned out of power, but as a kid, which as we've established can't teleport.

But Goku is able to use Instant Transmission once Piccolo gives him the energy to do so. Proving Goku can use Instant Transmission as a child, but simply couldn't do so in that scenario because, as he previously, he burned out all of his Ki from using Instant Transmission to much.

[ABED]

Why do you guys insist on saying that instead of reading Toei in their own words? Not only that, it does have plot relevance that is staring you right in the face - to place a limitation on Goku after he had become so powerful.

Why do people accept that as a good excuse? Never in the history of Dragon Ball has a character been nerfed just so they could build themselves up again. Goku, in particular, has been in a steady pattern of growth from episode 1 of Dragon Ball to the End of Z. You don't build tension by going backwards, but by increasing the steaks. You go bigger, not smaller. It's not like Goku was this invincible juggernaut, either. It would have been perfectly reasonable to have someone like Trunks catch up to him in power. Vegeta was at least in the same ball park of power too, considering they were both planning to battle in the tournament in the End of Z until Uub showed up and changed their plans. Toriyama even gave TOEI the perfect excuse for keeping Goku and Vegeta in fighting shape, with the explanation that Saiyans remain youthful longer than Earthlings. Yet they decided to reverse Goku's progress anyways. Heck, even if they wanted to nerf Goku so that he wouldn't overshadow the rest of the cast, they failed to ever make those other characters relevant anyway.

If you want to have a satisfying followup to Z, you create a bigger bad guy. Super did this with Beerus, Golden Frieza, Goku Black, etc. Now Super, unlike End of Z, actually does have a problem with god-tier characters like Goku and Vegeta being too powerful for characters like Krillin to get involved without fans calling BS. But the solution is to build the rest of the cast up, not to lower the more powerful characters to their level.

God I hate that damn term. What the hell is so wrong with putting a road block in the protagonist's way? In this case, if they are intending to turn Goku into a kid for nostalgia, why not make it work for the story? Limitations are good. It makes for more creative storytelling.

And it doesn't matter if you think the logic is bad, that is what they said. This isn't backwards because Goku never had that limitation. It's not a reverse of his progress, it simply doesn't allow an easy out. That's better storytelling than just creating an even bigger bad. He's the strongest, no he's the strongest, no he's even stronger, no he's actually the strongest! It's a pattern that gets boring.

But Goku is able to use Instant Transmission once Piccolo gives him the energy to do so. Proving Goku can use Instant Transmission as a child, but simply couldn't do so in that scenario because, as he previously, he burned out all of his Ki from using Instant Transmission to much.

Point being?

[ruler9871]

4. I liked that they didn't force her into the spotlight for the sake of fanservice like randomly giving her an undeserved legendary super saiyan form from something as dumb as back tingles or insults. She's just a regular kid who has her own issues and is not a clone of Goku or Vegeta. She was still plenty strong enough to stand up against opponents stronger than Frieza and Cell. She also had plenty of character development. You only need to compare how she treats Goku at the beginning of GT to the end of GT.

Pan was forced into the spotlight throughout all of GT. The fact the she did nothing useful (in terms of combat) nor substantial (in terms of story or character development) with all that spotlight she got actually makes her case much worse. She's literally DB's equivalent to Sakura from the Naruto franchise. They have much of the same writing problems.

And you don't have to be a copy of Goku or Vegeta to be a useful character in a series like DB. Just look at Gohan throughout Z, Piccolo from his debut to the Cell Games or Future Trunks in all of his appearances for example. None of these characters are personally like Goku or Vegeta, yet they're all handled way better than GT Pan.

She wasn't forced into the spotlight. The show was and has always been about Goku. She became a supporting character to Goku. Goku and Vegeta are leagues ahead of anyone else in power, literally God status. Everyone else can do one of two things: 1) Fight fodder characters like the humans did in ToP or 2) get massive illogical power-ups to make them relevant ala Golden Freeza or Kale or Future Trunks who got an unexplained powerup and became god tier. Gohan's a bit different as he was forced to train and keep up but even he had his "latent power" unlocked from a dancing Kai.

Is that really want you want to see happen to Pan? Piccolo, Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi were all left in the dust in DBZ.

She was forced in the spotlight in GT, especially compared to everyone else except Goku. Pan had more screentime on average in GT than Vegeta did in Super.

And I never said a thing about power levels. Bulma for example manages to be a highly useful and mildly developed character in the series with the amount of screentime she gets despite being a non-fighter. GT Pan has no excuse.

[ABED]

Goku wasn't forced into the spotlight, it's his story!

Pan brings out a different side of Goku and for a show that's primarily about dudes, it's nice to see a girl in the mix. The way Goku, Pan, Trunks, and Giru bounced off each other was interesting.

[ZeroNeonix]

Why do you guys insist on saying that instead of reading Toei in their own words? Not only that, it does have plot relevance that is staring you right in the face - to place a limitation on Goku after he had become so powerful.

Why do people accept that as a good excuse? Never in the history of Dragon Ball has a character been nerfed just so they could build themselves up again. Goku, in particular, has been in a steady pattern of growth from episode 1 of Dragon Ball to the End of Z. You don't build tension by going backwards, but by increasing the steaks. You go bigger, not smaller. It's not like Goku was this invincible juggernaut, either. It would have been perfectly reasonable to have someone like Trunks catch up to him in power. Vegeta was at least in the same ball park of power too, considering they were both planning to battle in the tournament in the End of Z until Uub showed up and changed their plans. Toriyama even gave TOEI the perfect excuse for keeping Goku and Vegeta in fighting shape, with the explanation that Saiyans remain youthful longer than Earthlings. Yet they decided to reverse Goku's progress anyways. Heck, even if they wanted to nerf Goku so that he wouldn't overshadow the rest of the cast, they failed to ever make those other characters relevant anyway.

If you want to have a satisfying followup to Z, you create a bigger bad guy. Super did this with Beerus, Golden Frieza, Goku Black, etc. Now Super, unlike End of Z, actually does have a problem with god-tier characters like Goku and Vegeta being too powerful for characters like Krillin to get involved without fans calling BS. But the solution is to build the rest of the cast up, not to lower the more powerful characters to their level.

God I hate that damn term. What the hell is so wrong with putting a road block in the protagonist's way? In this case, if they are intending to turn Goku into a kid for nostalgia, why not make it work for the story? Limitations are good. It makes for more creative storytelling.

And it doesn't matter if you think the logic is bad, that is what they said. This isn't backwards because Goku never had that limitation. It's not a reverse of his progress, it simply doesn't allow an easy out. That's better storytelling than just creating an even bigger bad. He's the strongest, no he's the strongest, no he's even stronger, no he's actually the strongest! It's a pattern that gets boring.

But Goku is able to use Instant Transmission once Piccolo gives him the energy to do so. Proving Goku can use Instant Transmission as a child, but simply couldn't do so in that scenario because, as he previously, he burned out all of his Ki from using Instant Transmission to much.

Point being?

Creating a roadblock and reversing progress are two different things. A character getting a permanent injury, like when Future Gohan lost an arm, is a roadblock. Reversing a character to a previous state isn't interesting. It doesn't create a new hurdle for the character to overcome. It just comes off as artificial and lazy.

[ABED]

Creating a roadblock and reversing progress are two different things. A character getting a permanent injury, like when Future Gohan lost an arm, is a roadblock. Reversing a character to a previous state isn't interesting. It doesn't create a new hurdle for the character to overcome. It just comes off as artificial and lazy.

No, what's lazy is doing the same damn thing over and over, like "here's a stronger boss, and here's an even stronger boss, whoa now here's an even stronger boss!". Goku's decreased stamina IS a roadblock. His younger body comes with drawbacks. Why put him in his younger form and not do anything with it?