How would you improve DB going forward?

[Matches Malone]

By not listening to American fans. Ever.

I edited it for you.

Both Toriyama and Toyotaro said they listen to fans now, with other officials saying the same thing. I'm not a fan of the fan service we've gotten as a result of this new mentality, but I also don't think completely ignoring fans is a good idea either. I think you need a middle ground where fans aren't interfering with the authors' vision, but the authors shouldn't be completely disconnected with fans to the point of their vision alienating them.

[ABED]

Nope, never, ever, ever listen to fans. Treat the story like it doesn't have fans. I think it's useful to distinguish "audience" from "fans". Fans know the story, audience is whoever watches or reads. To the extent you listen to them is to see if what you are doing is having its intended effect. If a comic bombs with the same material in front of several audiences, they should throw it out. It's not getting a laugh which is the whole point.

[Michsi]

I think Toriyama stated a couple of times that he takes into account what is popular, but he also mentioned that what it comes down to in the end is what he likes and finds fun to do. Personally, I think it's good to lend half an ear to what the fans are saying but never cater to their wishes to such an extent that you could say they have a control over what happens in the story.

[emperior]

Nope, Toriyama flat out stated in the manga that Gohan was the new protagonist.

May you provide a source? Never seen such statement.

This was written in the manga too, by the way. There’s a little Roshi who says it after Goku dies.

Nope, never, ever, ever listen to fans. Treat the story like it doesn't have fans. I think it's useful to distinguish "audience" from "fans". Fans know the story, audience is whoever watches or reads. To the extent you listen to them is to see if what you are doing is having its intended effect. If a comic bombs with the same material in front of several audiences, they should throw it out. It's not getting a laugh which is the whole point.

Totally agree.

But most importantly, they must stop actively chasing old fans through those terrible nostalgic rehashes. They are no good, and only serve to diminish those popular moments.

[Matches Malone]

Nope, never, ever, ever listen to fans. Treat the story like it doesn't have fans. I think it's useful to distinguish "audience" from "fans". Fans know the story, audience is whoever watches or reads. To the extent you listen to them is to see if what you are doing is having its intended effect. If a comic bombs with the same material in front of several audiences, they should throw it out. It's not getting a laugh which is the whole point.

You're saying an author shouldn't listen to fans, but should pay attention to the audience's reaction ? I don't see how these work as looking at audience reaction isn't much different from seeing what fans want or don't want. If the audience isn't responding to your story and you change things based on that, isn't that the same as taking fans' opinions into account ?

[ABED]

Nope, never, ever, ever listen to fans. Treat the story like it doesn't have fans. I think it's useful to distinguish "audience" from "fans". Fans know the story, audience is whoever watches or reads. To the extent you listen to them is to see if what you are doing is having its intended effect. If a comic bombs with the same material in front of several audiences, they should throw it out. It's not getting a laugh which is the whole point.

You're saying an author shouldn't listen to fans, but should pay attention to the audience's reaction ? I don't see how these work as looking at audience reaction isn't much different from seeing what fans want or don't want. If the audience isn't responding to your story and you change things based on that, isn't that the same as taking fans' opinions into account ?

Because working for an audience isn't the same as satiating fans who already know and like something and will pretty much watch regardless. Every story started off without having fans. Something about it connected. Listening to fans opinions is like a doctor let the patient self diagnose and treat.

[Dbzfan94]

No, Super and GT are telling the story of the same main characters just at a later point. Naruto is a spin off in the same way Frasier spun off from Cheers.

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you on this, so agree to disagree.

Because you know I'm right. I know that sounds arrogant, but if it's not the same cast of characters it's not a continuation in the same way. I don't know why anyone would ever claim that following a different cast of characters is the same as following the same cast but further down the road. Regardless, from what little I've seen of Naruto, it's not an interesting show so any change of the status quo would be welcome.

No, actually. It's because you'll argue back and forth forever until you're blue in the face, like I've seen countless times in the past.

[ABED]

No, actually. It's because you'll argue back and forth forever until you're blue in the face, like I've seen countless times in the past.

Why bring it up if you have no interest in actually discussing things?

Regardless, how is Boruto doing just fine? Like in what way? How would that approach improve DB going forward?

[Dbzfan94]

No, actually. It's because you'll argue back and forth forever until you're blue in the face, like I've seen countless times in the past.

Why bring it up if you have no interest in actually discussing things?

Regardless, how is Boruto doing just fine? Like in what way? How would that approach improve DB going forward?

Thats not what I'm saying at all. I made my point and I'm not gonna go in circles because I said what I wanted to say.

For what may work for one series, may not work for another. So I dont know. But an arc without Goku and Vegeta as the main fighters would be a breath fresh air.

[Michsi]

It all comes down to story ideas and execution. Yes, you could make an arc without Vegeta and Goku, but you'd have to make damn well sure it'll blow people away because that's what it takes to win people over in exchange for losing two of the most popular characters.

You can argue that they rely so heavily on Vegeta and Goku precisely because they don't trust they could come up with stories that audiences would enjoy without them. Goku and Vegeta make things easy and sure.

[ABED]

Perhaps AN arc, but it should be a short arc. The way some of you guys are talking about Goku and now Vegeta feels so odd, as though you might as well be talking about Superman comics without Superman. DB is Goku's story. He's the heart of the story. I understand the impetus to shake up the status quo after a long time, but this is putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

[Michsi]

Well, yeah, Goku's mostly my concern here. Personally, I don't think Vegeta is as necessary as people make him out to be, but modern DB has made their dynamic perfunctory.

I would actually prefer for Goku to be de-coupled from Vegeta. If he's absolutely gotta have a partner use Freeza, I think that;ll be much more interesting. In fact, this would be my recommendation: keep the same cast, but use new character dynamics. Switch it up a little. Have Gohan forced to work together with Vegeta, give me Bulma&Piccolo shenanigans, let Kuririn and Freeza work together. The possibilities are endless.

[goku the krump dancer]

But I thought people hated the Garlic Jr Arc. ( I don’t, but still)

[ABED]

I would actually prefer for Goku to be de-coupled from Vegeta. If he's absolutely gotta have a partner use Freeza, I think that;ll be much more interesting.

Why Freeza of all people? I like the idea of Gohan and Vegeta together, but I wish the story could get away from Freeza.

[Michsi]

But I thought people hated the Garlic Jr Arc. ( I don’t, but still)

I don't either, it's one of my favorites. I've seen a number of people reevaluate this arc as "it's actually pretty good", but I can't say what the general consensus is.

I would actually prefer for Goku to be de-coupled from Vegeta. If he's absolutely gotta have a partner use Freeza, I think that;ll be much more interesting.

Why Freeza of all people? I like the idea of Gohan and Vegeta together, but I wish the story could get away from Freeza.

He can bring an interesting flavor, and I like the uneasy alliance trope, but I hope he never switches sides. Also Goku's hickishness would go nicely with Freeza's refined mannerism. Tbh, would prefer Vegeta & Freeza since they have actual history.

[Matches Malone]

The problem with trying to make an arc without Goku and Vegeta is that at this point, everyone's been left so far behind that there's no way to move the main plot ahead without them. You could either do a slice of life arc, or an arc with some very small villain that might as well be a filler arc.

[Michsi]

The problem with trying to make an arc without Goku and Vegeta is that at this point, everyone's been left so far behind that there's no way to move the main plot ahead without them. You could either do a slice of life arc, or an arc with some very small villain that might as well be a filler arc.

This idea that the plot can only progress along side the top strongest fighter's powerlevels is what I think stifles creativity in this franchise. You can still have high stakes battles without reaching TOP scale scenario.

They are already experimenting with going another route that "more power" in the manga, but aren't doing enough with it IMO.

[ABED]

Been there done that with uneasy alliances. There's more to do with Goku and Vegeta, hell even just Vegeta. Vegeta as a mentor to Cabba is a pretty compelling dynamic.

Here's an improvement for DB going forward - fewer "slice of life" episodes. They have their place but they get boring really quickly.

Tbh, would prefer Vegeta & Freeza since they have actual history.

I know what you mean here, but at this point in the story, Goku and Freeza have a history, just a different one.

[Matches Malone]

This idea that the plot can only progress along side the top strongest fighter's powerlevels is what I think stifles creativity in this franchise.

When was the last time DB made progress with a smaller threat from the one before it ? never. Every arc from Pilaf all the way up until now with Moro has introduced someone who could push the main heroes further than the previous fighter. You could've left Goku and Vegeta behind for an arc if other characters like Gohan and Piccolo had been developing alongside them, but at this point, you can't have a main arc without them.

[Michsi]

This idea that the plot can only progress along side the top strongest fighter's powerlevels is what I think stifles creativity in this franchise.

When was the last time DB made progress with a smaller threat from the one before it ? never. Every arc from Pilaf all the way up until now with Moro has introduced someone who could push the main heroes further than the previous fighter. You could've left Goku and Vegeta behind for an arc if other characters like Gohan and Piccolo had been developing alongside them, but at this point, you can't have a main arc without them.

My point exactly and that does not mean it cannot be done. That's what I mean with stifling creativity, that some cannot even imagine a story line that doesn't involve a stronger, fiercer opponent.

Been there done that with uneasy alliances. There's more to do with Goku and Vegeta, hell even just Vegeta. Vegeta as a mentor to Cabba is a pretty compelling dynamic.

Here's an improvement for DB going forward - fewer "slice of life" episodes. They have their place but they get boring really quickly.

This one comes down to personal preference, I have had my fill of Goku and Vegeta. This was interesting when Vegeta was the uneasy ally and it was exciting when he became a true ally. Now, the rivalry has turned boring imo. It's just...there.
I find Cabba boring but at this point I'd take anything

I know what you mean here, but at this point in the story, Goku and Freeza have a history, just a different one.

They've had their turn in the TOP. Freeza and Vegeta would b way heavier and complicated, which is why I assume the writers danced around it.