What would Toei have done with GT if it had gone on longer?

[Robo4900]

Ah yes, because if it's a boys' show, then it is a WRONG decision for girls to be major players in the main cast?

Seriously... "Show aimed at boys" doesn't mean "No girls allowed".

Girls are allowed, they just used their brains instead of their brawn like Bulma. Doesn't necessarily mean that they were worse than the male cast, they just used different talents.

As I say, really only Bulma, and briefly Videl, were major players in the main cast... This isn't about girls not fighting, though that is also pretty crazy (why not have one of the fighting characters be a girl? Or two, even. And how about having more than one brainy character?). Like anything, there's far more to Dragon Ball than fighting, and reducing it to "It's just about fighting" is how you end up with stuff like Z movie 6, which is one of the most shallow pieces of media I've ever consumed... But Dragon Ball is a martial arts anime. It's a battle manga. If no girls are allowed to fight, then... Well, it's much akin to if no girls were allowed to play card games in Yu-Gi-Oh, or if no girls were allowed to fight crime in a superhero movie.

That's a ridiculous notion. It's a notion that is likely widely subscribed-to by many people working on Dragon Ball over the years, but it's a crazy one.

Since Dragon Ball is one of most if not the most successful anime of all time, it appears the people working on Dragon Ball were pretty good at what they were doing and knowing exactly what their audience wants. Guess that notion is not so ridiculous.

Sure, and it's also loaded with sexual harassment -- and in a few cases, outright attempted sexual assault -- played for laughs. Are you gonna say that was actually a good idea, just because the show was popular?

A good thing can also be a flawed thing, deeply flawed in numerous respects, which can often be tied to fundamental attitudes of the people who made it. You can't just excuse any attitude as "Well, they made a successful thing, so I guess they had the right idea after all"... By the same token, George Lucas did nothing wrong with the Star Wars prequels 'cause they were wildly successful movies. It's a ridiculous line of thought, and one that achieves nothing other than dismissing criticism with an effortless, thoughtless handwave.

Congratulations, you have successfully listed all of the women in Dragon Ball. If I was to do that with all the men, I'd have a post so long, Kunzait would call it excessive.

Sure you can, and how many of those men actually mattered in the end? Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, perhaps (future) Trunks, although he sure fizzled out fast. Relevancy isn't decided by gender but by writing.
Heck, a large part of the male cast was cast aside after the Frieza saga.Meanwhile characters like Bulma and 18 still played large parts in shaping the story line.

What does "Mattered in the end" even mean?

And, most critically, how is it relevant?

There are five women in the main or supporting cast of Dragon Ball, only two of whom could really be called leads for any portion of the story, and one of them doesn't show up until the very last arc, and is only a lead for the first little bit of it.

As for the men...
Goku, Piccolo, Kuririn, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Gohan, Vegeta, Roshi, Trunks, Oolong, Dende, Karin, Kaio, Grand Kaio, Kaioshin, Kibito, South Kaio, West Kaio, arguably #8 and Bardock...
We have all the major arc villains/antagonists except for Mai and one of the seven Evil Dragons -- Pilaf, Shuu/Soba, Silver, Blue, Yellow, White, Red, Piccolo Daimao, Raditz, Nappa, Freeza, Zarbon, Dodoria, #17, #19-20, Cell, Boo, Baby, Super #17, six out of the seven Evil Dragons, Beers, Champa, Black/Zamas, Broly...
All of these characters could be considered major players in at least one major story arc (if you're allowed to consider Videl and #18, then I get to have Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Dende, etc.). And this is just off the top of my head. I can't remember any names, but aren't there like 70 other fighters, plus like 10 or 20 more gods introduced in the TOP, and only like ten, maybe fifteen, of the TOP lot are girls? IIRC no new women were introduced among all the introductions we got in the U6 tournament aside from Vados...

It's perfectly fine to say you don't mind the lack of women in Dragon Ball (I'll judge you for it, but it's a somewhat understandable position to hold for a franchise that's brought you a lot of joy over the years), but denying that there is a lack of women in the franchise is just ignorant. And trying to belittle this by saying "well, some of the guys didn't matter much either" is no argument against this, and barely makes any sense anyway... It's very much a Whataboutism argument.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ah yes, because if it's a boys' show, then it is a WRONG decision for girls to be major players in the main cast?

Seriously... "Show aimed at boys" doesn't mean "No girls allowed".

Girls are allowed, they just used their brains instead of their brawn like Bulma. Doesn't necessarily mean that they were worse than the male cast, they just used different talents.

As I say, really only Bulma, and briefly Videl, were major players in the main cast... This isn't about girls not fighting, though that is also pretty crazy (why not have one of the fighting characters be a girl? Or two, even. And how about having more than one brainy character?). Like anything, there's far more to Dragon Ball than fighting, and reducing it to "It's just about fighting" is how you end up with stuff like Z movie 6, which is one of the most shallow pieces of media I've ever consumed... But Dragon Ball is a martial arts anime. It's a battle manga. If no girls are allowed to fight, then... Well, it's much akin to if no girls were allowed to play card games in Yu-Gi-Oh, or if no girls were allowed to fight crime in a superhero movie.

That's a ridiculous notion. It's a notion that is likely widely subscribed-to by many people working on Dragon Ball over the years, but it's a crazy one.

Since Dragon Ball is one of most if not the most successful anime of all time, it appears the people working on Dragon Ball were pretty good at what they were doing and knowing exactly what their audience wants. Guess that notion is not so ridiculous.

Sure, and it's also loaded with sexual harassment -- and in a few cases, outright attempted sexual assault -- played for laughs. Are you gonna say that was actually a good idea, just because the show was popular?

A good thing can also be a flawed thing, deeply flawed in numerous respects, which can often be tied to fundamental attitudes of the people who made it. You can't just excuse any attitude as "Well, they made a successful thing, so I guess they had the right idea after all"... By the same token, George Lucas did nothing wrong with the Star Wars prequels 'cause they were wildly successful movies. It's a ridiculous line of thought, and one that achieves nothing other than dismissing criticism with an effortless, thoughtless handwave.

Congratulations, you have successfully listed all of the women in Dragon Ball. If I was to do that with all the men, I'd have a post so long, Kunzait would call it excessive.

Sure you can, and how many of those men actually mattered in the end? Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, perhaps (future) Trunks, although he sure fizzled out fast. Relevancy isn't decided by gender but by writing.
Heck, a large part of the male cast was cast aside after the Frieza saga.Meanwhile characters like Bulma and 18 still played large parts in shaping the story line.

What does "Mattered in the end" even mean?

And, most critically, how is it relevant?

There are five women in the main or supporting cast of Dragon Ball, only two of whom could really be called leads for any portion of the story, and one of them doesn't show up until the very last arc, and is only a lead for the first little bit of it.

As for the men...
Goku, Piccolo, Kuririn, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Gohan, Vegeta, Roshi, Trunks, Oolong, Dende, Karin, Kaio, Grand Kaio, Kaioshin, Kibito, South Kaio, West Kaio, arguably #8 and Bardock...
We have all the major arc villains/antagonists except for Mai and one of the seven Evil Dragons -- Pilaf, Shuu/Soba, Silver, Blue, Yellow, White, Red, Piccolo Daimao, Raditz, Nappa, Freeza, Zarbon, Dodoria, #17, #19-20, Cell, Boo, Baby, Super #17, six out of the seven Evil Dragons, Beers, Champa, Black/Zamas, Broly...
All of these characters could be considered major players in at least one major story arc (if you're allowed to consider Videl and #18, then I get to have Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Dende, etc.). And this is just off the top of my head. I can't remember any names, but aren't there like 70 other fighters, plus like 10 or 20 more gods introduced in the TOP, and only like ten, maybe fifteen, of the TOP lot are girls? IIRC no new women were introduced among all the introductions we got in the U6 tournament aside from Vados...

It's perfectly fine to say you don't mind the lack of women in Dragon Ball (I'll judge you for it, but it's a somewhat understandable position to hold for a franchise that's brought you a lot of joy over the years), but denying that there is a lack of women in the franchise is just ignorant. And trying to belittle this by saying "well, some of the guys didn't matter much either" is no argument against this, and barely makes any sense anyway... It's very much a Whataboutism argument.

Uuhhh Robo...Yu Gi Oh is one of the, if not the, most sexist media franchises around. Almost no girls play the game in the franchise.

[Robo4900]

Uuhhh Robo...Yu Gi Oh is one of the, if not the, most sexist media franchises around. Almost no girls play the game in the franchise.

Huh. Well, that sucks. But also, yeah, not totally unexpected, really.

Still, I think my point stands.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That it does.

[JulieYBM]

Naruto and Bleach tossed their women a few good fights every once in a while, although Orihime definitely got the short-end of the stick due to how powerful her ability is Kubo stopped giving her fights and just focused on drawing the other multitude of women. Heck, he also gave us a trans woman (Giselle Gewelle, albeit she was an enemy and Yumichika was transphobic to her)!

Anyway, Dragon Ball Super has pretty good representation of women the longer it went on. Characters had their own various storylines that weren't about men and the women weren't depicted as "needing to be saved by men". That's good representation.

[WittyUsername]

The only notable female characters in DBS I can think of that had stories independent of any male characters were Caulifla and Kale, and all things considered, they weren’t that significant.

[JulieYBM]

The only notable female characters in DBS I can think of that had stories independent of any male characters were Caulifla and Kale, and all things considered, they weren’t that significant.

Ribrien and her crew had scenes and were independent of male characters.

[WittyUsername]

The only notable female characters in DBS I can think of that had stories independent of any male characters were Caulifla and Kale, and all things considered, they weren’t that significant.

Ribrien and her crew had scenes and were independent of male characters.

Sure, but they were basically just glorified fodder, especially in the manga. I guess the anime gave Ribrianne a bit more of an arc, but she still came across as a pretty one note parody of a specific genre of anime.

[JulieYBM]

The only notable female characters in DBS I can think of that had stories independent of any male characters were Caulifla and Kale, and all things considered, they weren’t that significant.

Ribrien and her crew had scenes and were independent of male characters.

Sure, but they were basically just glorified fodder, especially in the manga. I guess the anime gave Ribrianne a bit more of an arc, but she still came across as a pretty one note parody of a specific genre of anime.

Ribrianne was no less forgettable than dozens of the male characters in that arc. She also lasted quite a bit longer and was forced to actually face a challenge to her ideology. It's not perfect but it's not 'insulting', ala Pan.

Hecc, I've always wished Tenshinhan and Muten Roushi were traded in with Videl and Chi-Chi. I think that would've made for a way more interesting Tournament of Power.

[ABED]

If you were fighting the fate of the entire universe would you really put Chichi and Videl on your team?

[JulieYBM]

If you were fighting the fate of the entire universe would you really put Chichi and Videl on your team?

It's fiction, it doesn't exist. You can literally write whatever you want.

Gokuu: "Oi Videl, y'seen Gohan 'round? [Exposition]"
Videl: "Oh, Gohan-kun's busy with work! I can help, though. Pan-chan's such a well-mannered baby I get a lot of time to meditate!"

and

Kuririn: "Wait, you want to ask Chi-Chi to help?!"
Gokuu: "Huh? She still trains, y'know, she jus' doesn't care 'bout fightin' strong guys 'n stuff!"
*Later*
Chi-Chi: "...y'gonna take me on a date fer once? All the trainin' I help you wit' and yew never take me out!"
Gokuu (Thinking): "What in tarnation is a date? Can you eat it?" Replying: "Yeah, of course!"

There, just make that up on and spot and now we get to see Videl spend episodes trading dialogue with Piccolo, Gokuu and Chi-Chi while Gokuu and his wife do something together for once.

Like, gosh, it's better than fucking Tenshinhan again (even although I can think of a few cool strategies for him).

[ABED]

There, just make that up on and spot and now we get to see Videl spend episodes trading dialogue with Piccolo, Gokuu and Chi-Chi while Gokuu and his wife do something together for once.

Like, gosh, it's better than fucking Tenshinhan again (even although I can think of a few cool strategies for him).

It is fiction but there's no internal logic to this. Chichi hasn't fought for years and even then she wasn't that great, and Videl is a step above her father which isn't saying much.

Your scenario sounds exactly like you just made that up. It's awful for many reasons, not the least of which is lazy and transparent. And Tenshinhan is a great character. I don't know why the hell you'd phrase it is "it's better than fucking Tenshinhan" like he's a ham and egger.

[JulieYBM]

It is fiction but there's no internal logic to this. Chichi hasn't fought for years and even then she wasn't that great, and Videl is a step above her father which isn't saying much.

Your scenario sounds exactly like you just made that up. It's awful for many reasons, not the least of which is lazy and transparent. And Tenshinhan is a great character. I don't know why the hell you'd phrase it is "it's better than fucking Tenshinhan" like he's a ham and egger.

Yeah, that's because I wrote that dialogue on the spot in a rush because I just wanted to make the point that it's possible to justify doing whatever one wants to do for the sake of it.

Tenshinhan is boring and he's been called to action in the Beers arc, the Golden Freeza arc, the Tournament of Power and even the fucking Moro arc--all without doing anything vaguely interesting. At least with Videl and Chi-Chi we can see different characters with different personalities and experiences in different scenarios interacting with their friends and family in new ways. Also, because girls are cute and I'm gay.

I don't know what the story would be for Tenshinhan. For Videl I know it's "Ah, my husband is busy with work, my child is well-mannered and I still like doing martial arts! I'm also pretty strong now so I wonder if I can help at the ToP!" with Chi-Chi it is "Gokuu-sa never pays me any attention but I guess I do kind of refuse to ever try his hobbies! And he does work hard on the farm..." There's some ground for an arc there. Some threads that tie back personally to major characters like Gokuu and Piccolo. Tenshinhan is just there to fill in the ranks.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Ribrien and her crew had scenes and were independent of male characters.

Sure, but they were basically just glorified fodder, especially in the manga. I guess the anime gave Ribrianne a bit more of an arc, but she still came across as a pretty one note parody of a specific genre of anime.

Ribrianne was no less forgettable than dozens of the male characters in that arc. She also lasted quite a bit longer and was forced to actually face a challenge to her ideology. It's not perfect but it's not 'insulting', ala Pan.

Hecc, I've always wished Tenshinhan and Muten Roushi were traded in with Videl and Chi-Chi. I think that would've made for a way more interesting Tournament of Power.

Indeed JulieYBM , the idea that Ribrianne and even her partners Kakunsa and Rozie have even come close to being considered forgettable has been greatly not the case, even to My Surprise.

Pretty Much if we had a way of Ranking how well Characters introduced in the ToP arc have done since the end of Super back in March 2018, honestly even I did not expect Ribrianne, Kakunsa and Rozie to do as well as they have done.

From the short Ribrianne Cameo in Super Broly stating she was one of the Top Fighters in Goku's eyes in the ToP to being pretty Impressive and Leading characters in Major DB Games Like Dokkan Battle, Legends and Xenoverse 2.

Really by many reviews and even my own experience with the games Ribrianne's character has gotten allot of Love(No Pun Intended LOL ) to her designs and effectiveness in the games making her worth wild to use. Heck, Recently Kakunsa and Rozie have gotten into Legends before even other Lead characters from the ToP by my surprise and they have been well received by fans as well and they look great in the game too.

Even FighterZ has allot of Buzz about Ribrianne having a good likelihood of being one of the Final DLC for Season 3 as well.

Honestly I think the Post Life/Post End of Super 2018 DB World for the Girls of Universe 2 has done them allot of good just like it has for Kale, Caulifla and Kefla. It has given time for them to grow on fans in a more slower and personal way and they have gain fandom slowly cause of it and that shows they honestly become more relevant then even when Super was airing.

[ABED]

Okay, you don't like Tenshinhan. I do, plus he's a talented warrior with a history of contributing even if only for a moment. You think Tenshinhan hasn't done anything interesting in a while think of how long Videl and Chichi have gone without being interesting. Your dialog whether you had time to figure it out wouldn't matter because it's just lazy writing, but not in the fun Deadpool way. It's a lazy rationalization to fit two characters who have no business being there in the thick of the action. It was bad enough that it's exactly what they did to justify Muten Roshi's involvement. "Oh I've been training when you weren't watching." It's not good storytelling.

What you're talking about with Videl and Chichi is a completely different story. It's not DB at all, nor is there an arc to play with them. It's shipping fodder and nothing else.

You don't know what Tenshinhan would do? That's the point. Stories aren't supposed to allow audiences to get ahead of it. Stories are there to surprise us.

And this isn't a boys club thing. I like the Kale and Caulifla as well as Ribrianne. Hell, I like GT Pan. Christ, Pan makes more sense in the ToP than Chichi or Videl.

[WittyUsername]

If there was any member of the team that didn’t need to be there, it was the Muten Roshi. He easily could’ve been replaced with Yamcha, but I suppose that RF already set the precedent for Yamcha getting shafted in favor of Roshi, despite the fact that Roshi stopped fighting after Piccolo Damiao.

[MyVisionity]

If Roshi could have done secret training, so could Chichi. In fact, they could have written it so that Roshi and Chichi were training partners. Especially since Chichi was taught in the Turtle Hermit style originally. Then have them both participate in the Tournament.

Super could have used such an opportunity to revive Chichi's character as a martial artist and have her move forward in a new capacity for future stories.

[Jord]

What history does Chi-Chi have anyway as a fighter? She was in that last Tournament, just before DBZ where she get knocked out of the arena after after an air punch and then....did she fight after that?

Videl fought more recently but I think she quit after getting the crap beat out of her by jobber Spopovitz.

[ABED]

What history does Chi-Chi have anyway as a fighter? She was in that last Tournament, just before DBZ where she get knocked out of the arena after after an air punch and then....did she fight after that?

Videl fought more recently but I think she quit after getting the crap beat out of her by jobber Spopovitz.

She never fought after that and I doubt she would train with Muten Roshi.

[LoganForkHands73]

Roshi getting on the team was kinda contrived, but it worked out well in the long run as he proved to still be an interesting character in the setting with tonnes of cool tricks up his sleeve that allowed him to be one of the most strategic fighters of the team. I loved how his simple martial artist philosophies allowed him to keep up with all the unskilled, brute strength yobbos from the other universes. The manga pushes things past the breaking point for suspension of disbelief with his infamous "fight" against Jiren, but even that served the story in a pivotal way by reminding Goku of his own martial arts roots and to stop relying so heavily on brute power. Tenshinhan had a lot of potential to be equally valuable and interesting, but was unfortunately wasted for the most part.

I like Videl but she really doesn't bring anything to the table in comparison to even a relatively weak fighter like Roshi. When her only valuable ki technique is flight, there's gonna be a bit of an issue trying to make her even slightly useful in a battle royale against the strongest mortals in the multiverse, especially when her main technique is explicitly banned. Chi-Chi brings even less and hasn't fought properly for years outside of schooling Goten in some basic self-defence. The most these characters could conceivably do is provide moral support for their respective husbands, which wouldn't exactly feel particularly progressive in terms of female representation. Things would have to be really dire in the recruitment stage if these two had to be called on instead of the veteran fighters. There'd have to be a Buu-esque BS contrivance to justify things like "Krillin and Tien both have COVID-19, they're self-isolating". It can be acceptable for a plot to bend over backwards in some situations if the author really wants to pursue a particular path -- like as much as Buu falling asleep was a copout, I think Frieza replacing him opened up more great narrative possibilities. But you can only do that so much before it starts to look really contrived and silly.