How would you rank Dragonball compared to other Shonen?

[precita]

Any show that has over 100 episodes better damn near well be good for someone to keep up with it, let alone the shows that go on for 300-500+ episodes.

These days I don't watch shows if I find out they go on for literally hundreds of episodes. Most of the ones I do are ones I had already gotten into since I was a kid so I stuck with them.

[ABED]

I’m sure there are better shonen in terms of better artistry and story telling but I don’t enjoy them more than dragon ball

These days I’m less apt to give any story that much time to get good. There is too much great stuff out there to wait on the off chance a show will find its footing

[JulieYBM]

But getting off on rape? That's disturbing.

In erotica? Hardly. The whole point is to indulge in your dirtiest fantasies. People have been doing this forever. Why do you think rape roleplay exists? People like to have a controlled sense of experiencing a lack of control. Find a partner you trust and throw yourself into the role. I don't think I want to roleplay but I certainly enjoy self-inserting as the girl in stories where girls are stripped of their agency, modified and raped. It's a satisfying way to process the stress of real life trauma and take control of one's feelings. All the creepy men who try to creep on us woman or woman-aligned people in real life are an entirely different thing from a fictional context we ourselves control.

My issue with Game of Thrones, as stated before, is how the series isn't about that. It uses the rape of women as if it was some sort of plot device. Women have no control over the production, either. This isn't a personal story of a female auteur creating art to process her trauma, this is two rich white boys using rape to seem serious. Furthermore, this isn't even about those men creating an expression of their sexuality, either, it's just their callous use of rape for Serious Points.

EDIT: Yeah, this sure has gone off on a tangent.

[ABED]

Criticizing One Piece just because it's long doesn't make sense if you haven't actually read it and don't understand the progression of the story and why it has to be that long to fit the entire arc Oda wants to tell. It's not like some series where the author just keeps adding new arcs after the last one to drag it out, everything is all connected and is part of the buildup to a planned climax.

Being planned out isn't relevant. Something can be planned and still suck, just as something can be created on the fly and be incredible. If someone actually planned an entire story to take 20 years of continuous publication to tell the full story, that feels self indulgent not to mention more than a tad pretentious

My issue with Game of Thrones, as stated before, is how the series isn't about that. It uses the rape of women as if it was some sort of plot device. Women have no control over the production, either. This isn't a personal story of a female auteur creating art to process her trauma, this is two rich white boys using rape to seem serious. Furthermore, this isn't even about those men creating an expression of their sexuality, either, it's just their callous use of rape for Serious Points.

It's a story set in a barbaric time and if (the royal) you think women are second class citizens now, imagine the dark ages, which the period the story essentially is set in. To not have it would be disingenuous.

And the entire point of bringing the Game of Thrones finale up is just about pointing out that going with a plan doesn't equate to good writing and bad writing isn't the result of lack of a plan. It misses the entire point of what the plan is for. They had a plan and didn't seem to realize just because they were ticking boxes, that didn't mean the audience was emotionally connecting to those plot points the way they wanted.

Toriyama didn't plan and so the story goes in whatever direction Toriyama found interesting and as a result we probably got his best work.

[Polyphase Avatron]

But getting off on rape? That's disturbing.

In erotica? Hardly. The whole point is to indulge in your dirtiest fantasies. People have been doing this forever. Why do you think rape roleplay exists? People like to have a controlled sense of experiencing a lack of control. Find a partner you trust and throw yourself into the role. I don't think I want to roleplay but I certainly enjoy self-inserting as the girl in stories where girls are stripped of their agency, modified and raped. It's a satisfying way to process the stress of real life trauma and take control of one's feelings. All the creepy men who try to creep on us woman or woman-aligned people in real life are an entirely different thing from a fictional context we ourselves control.

I just can't understand that. The whole idea makes me uncomfortable.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Criticizing One Piece just because it's long doesn't make sense if you haven't actually read it and don't understand the progression of the story and why it has to be that long to fit the entire arc Oda wants to tell. It's not like some series where the author just keeps adding new arcs after the last one to drag it out, everything is all connected and is part of the buildup to a planned climax.

Being planned out isn't relevant. Something can be planned and still suck, just as something can be created on the fly and be incredible. If someone actually planned an entire story to take 20 years of continuous publication to tell the full story, that feels self indulgent not to mention more than a tad pretentious

If that's the way an author wants to tell a story, who are you to say otherwise? Many people enjoy that kind of thing and are impressed by the sheer skill it takes to keep everything not only consistent but planned out over such a huge timeframe and so much content.

It's kind of like those huge, super-complex Lego structures some people build that get in the Guinness book of world records:

https://bestlifeonline.com/lego-structures/

Sure, you could say doing that kind of thing is a waste of time and they don't need to be that big, but you have to at least appreciate the skill and effort that went into making them.

[ABED]

Criticizing One Piece just because it's long doesn't make sense if you haven't actually read it and don't understand the progression of the story and why it has to be that long to fit the entire arc Oda wants to tell. It's not like some series where the author just keeps adding new arcs after the last one to drag it out, everything is all connected and is part of the buildup to a planned climax.

Being planned out isn't relevant. Something can be planned and still suck, just as something can be created on the fly and be incredible. If someone actually planned an entire story to take 20 years of continuous publication to tell the full story, that feels self indulgent not to mention more than a tad pretentious

If that's the way an author wants to tell a story, who are you to say otherwise? Many people enjoy that kind of thing and are impressed by the sheer skill it takes to keep everything not only consistent but planned out over such a huge timeframe and so much content.

It's kind of like those huge, super-complex Lego structures some people build that get in the Guinness book of world records:

https://bestlifeonline.com/lego-structures/

Sure, you could say doing that kind of thing is a waste of time and they don't need to be that big, but you have to at least appreciate the skill and effort that went into making them.

It assumes off the bat you can keep the audience for decades. I'm not against planning, but planning for a weekly story to take that long assumes a lot.

This is like that in that it's nothing like that. The reason people do that is because they want the record. Telling a story is about catharsis. If you feel you need 20 years to get the audience to feel the way you want them to feel by the end, it assumes a lot, including your level of talent.

If you can sustain the audience for that long, more power to you, but to assume that from the jump is ludicrous. And not for a second do I believe it takes 20 years to tell ANY story.

I'm not even convinced this is the case that he believed he needed decades to tell his story. It's likely he has an ending in mind, and like many authors who get paid to write stories on a continual basis, he kept the story going as it grew in popularity and just found ways to put off the ending.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I compare it because, despite being huge, it's not ad hoc and all fits into a coherent whole. When 4kids did their awful dub, they cut out a lot of episodes and plot points that may have seemed to be pointless filler at the time, but were later revealed to be so important that the story just doesn't work without them.

Everything is connected and even the most insignificant-seeming things are essential. It's really a masterpiece.

[ABED]

I compare it because, despite being huge, it's not ad hoc and all fits into a coherent whole. When 4kids did their awful dub, they cut out a lot of episodes and plot points that may have seemed to be pointless filler at the time, but were later revealed to be so important that the story just doesn't work without them.

Everything is connected and even the most insignificant-seeming things are essential. It's really a masterpiece.

Stories aren't like physical structures. They don't have to adhere to any sort of objective principle. You know a building functions as a building because it doesn't collapse. Writing is subjective and the aim is to get people to emotionally invest. How do you do it? There's no one way. And just doing a quick google search, it appears Oda didn't plan it all in advance. He has the ending in mind, and probably sketches out an idea for a long plot a little bit in advance and more than likely just has a good grasp on his own continuity, but by and large he's making it up as he goes. He's not going on this long because the story NEEDS this long. He keeps it going because he enjoys his creation and OP is successful.

Everything mattering and being connected doesn't require planning. It just takes the effort to remember what came before. Breaking Bad did that all the time. The payoff to certain plot points that took years weren't planned. Hell, one of the main characters was planned to be killed by the end of season 1 and was only saved due to the writers' strike in 2007/08. Now it seems inconceivable to have the show without him but that's what happened.

The DCAU also did this.

[Super Sonic]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

What about Gunsmoke and Bonanza? Those lasted for quite a bit, with the former went for 20 years or so?

On topic, with others of Shonen Action series, I'd compare DB more with contemporaries than successors a la Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece. Part of me thinks this due to a cool fanart I saw of Darth Vader alongside Mumm-Ra, Skeletor, Megatron, Shredder and Cobra Commander. Memorable villains of that time period and think something along those lines of DB villains with other Shonen Action villains of the time they were running. And while DB is a good and dear series to me, will also think very highly of Rurouni Kenshin as the next manga I was into aside from DB, as well as my first cosplay. While I wouldn't attempt to imitate Richard Cansino's voice like I would sometime imitate Chris Rager's when I started cosplaying Mr. Satan, and need to redo perhaps someday, always have fondness for it.

Also with the guys mentioning Naruto, was more into the manga of the Shippuden era and video games than watching every episode, (some of which made things more epic than the anime), the movie "Naruto: The Last" gave me heartwarming feelings and I teared up at it first several times I watched. (Yes, I'm a heterosexual man who teared at a Naruto movie. Deal with it).

[ABED]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

What about Gunsmoke and Bonanza? Those lasted for quite a bit, with the former went for 20 years or so?

On topic, with others of Shonen Action series, I'd compare DB more with contemporaries than successors a la Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece. Part of me thinks this due to a cool fanart I saw of Darth Vader alongside Mumm-Ra, Skeletor, Megatron, Shredder and Cobra Commander. Memorable villains of that time period and think something along those lines of DB villains with other Shonen Action villains of the time they were running. And while DB is a good and dear series to me, will also think very highly of Rurouni Kenshin as the next manga I was into aside from DB, as well as my first cosplay. While I wouldn't attempt to imitate Richard Cansino's voice like I would sometime imitate Chris Rager's when I started cosplaying Mr. Satan, and need to redo perhaps someday, always have fondness for it.

Also with the guys mentioning Naruto, was more into the manga of the Shippuden era and video games than watching every episode, (some of which made things more epic than the anime), the movie "Naruto: The Last" gave me heartwarming feelings and I teared up at it first several times I watched. (Yes, I'm a heterosexual man who teared at a Naruto movie. Deal with it).

Gunsmoke wasn't super serialized.

Shows until relatively recently were more episodic because they played well in syndication. They were designed to basically be seen in nearly any order.

[MasenkoHA]

He's not going on this long because the story NEEDS this long. He keeps it going because he enjoys his creation and OP is successful.

This though. Obviously when I say it’s too long, I’m being subjective. If you enjoy a show with 900+ episodes more power to you but no need to pretend it’s because Oda is just a master storyteller who has well
thought out 20+ years of story carefully planned out snd crafted.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Legit the only show I’ve seen go past 6 seasons and still be good is Buffy and even then season 7 is mediocre and from my understanding the comics are god awful.

If it weren't for season 8, Game of Thrones could've pulled it off. Though I'd submit the argument that it isn't its length that killed GoT, but that it was simply handled poorly near the end (it didn't have to be though).

[Melee_Sovereign]

My issue with Game of Thrones, as stated before, is how the series isn't about that. It uses the rape of women as if it was some sort of plot device. Women have no control over the production, either. This isn't a personal story of a female auteur creating art to process her trauma, this is two rich white boys using rape to seem serious. Furthermore, this isn't even about those men creating an expression of their sexuality, either, it's just their callous use of rape for Serious Points.

Game of Thrones is reflective of actual Medieval times. What's hard to understand about that?

And the entire point of bringing the Game of Thrones finale up is just about pointing out that going with a plan doesn't equate to good writing and bad writing isn't the result of lack of a plan.

They kinda didn't go with the plan though. They deviated heavily from the source material (which you can consider "the plan"). Season 8 showed that D&D simply aren't good writers on their own.

[JulieYBM]

My issue with Game of Thrones, as stated before, is how the series isn't about that. It uses the rape of women as if it was some sort of plot device. Women have no control over the production, either. This isn't a personal story of a female auteur creating art to process her trauma, this is two rich white boys using rape to seem serious. Furthermore, this isn't even about those men creating an expression of their sexuality, either, it's just their callous use of rape for Serious Points.

Game of Thrones is reflective of actual Medieval times. What's hard to understand about that?

And the entire point of bringing the Game of Thrones finale up is just about pointing out that going with a plan doesn't equate to good writing and bad writing isn't the result of lack of a plan.

They kinda didn't go with the plan though. They deviated heavily from the source material (which you can consider "the plan"). Season 8 showed that D&D simply aren't good writers on their own.

What is so hard about understanding that nothing exists in a vacuum? That perhaps those decisions they made were really poor decisions for making a television series, especially one with such a water cooler status.

This is one of those shitty parts of being a woman: having to explain basic shit to men like "women's historic mistreatment by men is really traumatic and men shouldn't use it for their shitty TV shows without approaching women and working with them which they clearly didn't do going by cast reactions to the finale".

[Melee_Sovereign]

What is so hard about understanding that nothing exists in a vacuum? That perhaps those decisions they made were really poor decisions for making a television series, especially one with such a water cooler status.

I'm confused on what your point is. Are you saying people shouldn't make TV shows based on or set in the Middle Ages?

"women's historic mistreatment by men is really traumatic and men shouldn't use it for their shitty TV shows without approaching women and working with them which they clearly didn't do going by cast reactions to the finale".

Umm, the TV series is based on a series of novels. The showrunners didn't decide to put rape in the show. They pulled from what was already written in the novels.

That's like complaining to Toei that Roshi is too perverted in the anime when it was Toriyama who wrote him like that. All Toei did was pull from the manga. All Game of Thrones does is pull from A Song of Ice and Fire, and in fact, ASoIaF is actually far more brutal and graphic than the show. The show is actually quite watered down in terms of the brutal theme of the story.

[JulieYBM]

What is so hard about understanding that nothing exists in a vacuum? That perhaps those decisions they made were really poor decisions for making a television series, especially one with such a water cooler status.

I'm confused on what your point is. Are you saying people shouldn't make TV shows based on or set in the Middle Ages?

"women's historic mistreatment by men is really traumatic and men shouldn't use it for their shitty TV shows without approaching women and working with them which they clearly didn't do going by cast reactions to the finale".

Umm, the TV series is based on a series of novels. The showrunners didn't decide to put rape in the show. They pulled from what was already written in the novels.

That's like complaining to Toei that Roshi is too perverted in the anime when it was Toriyama who wrote him like that. All Toei did was pull from the manga. All Game of Thrones does is pull from A Song of Ice and Fire, and in fact, ASoIaF is actually far more brutal and graphic than the show. The show is actually quite watered down in terms of the brutal theme of the story.

They added rape scenes, though. Furthermore, yes, the TV series can and should remove rape if it's going to serve no real purpose or is just damaging.

Your Roushi example doesn't work because I think it's entirely inappropriate for a series aimed at kids to have that kind of content as it is. Furthermore, modern projects have portrayed Roushi as an outright attempted rapist.

Like, what, am I supposed to drop my convictions because some fucker wrote a book first? Fuck Martin and fuck Toriyama, too. Martin doesn't particularly make a worthwhile point with his shit and Toriyama is writing for kids.

[Melee_Sovereign]

They added rape scenes, though. Furthermore, yes, the TV series can and should remove rape if it's going to serve no real purpose or ia just damaging.

The purpose it served, broadly speaking, is to further add to the type of setting of the story. The entire theme of GoT is its a terribly brutal world much like the actual Middle Ages.

It wasn't in any way trying to glorify it.

Like, what, am I supposed to drop my convictions because some fucker wrote a book first?

No, it just seemed like your anger was directed at the showrunners.

Fuck Martin and fuck Toriyama, too. Martin doesn't particularly make a worthwhile point with his shit and Toriyama is writing for kids.

What exactly are you doing on a Dragon Ball forum? Martin's point is simple. The setting is based on the Middle Ages, and the Middle Ages was far from a picnic.

[JulieYBM]

They added rape scenes, though. Furthermore, yes, the TV series can and should remove rape if it's going to serve no real purpose or ia just damaging.

The purpose it served, broadly speaking, is to further add to the type of setting of the story. The entire theme of GoT is its a terribly brutal world much like the actual Middle Ages.

It wasn't in any way trying to glorify it.

Like, what, am I supposed to drop my convictions because some fucker wrote a book first?

No, it just seemed like your anger was directed at the showrunners.

Fuck Martin and fuck Toriyama, too. Martin doesn't particularly make a worthwhile point with his shit and Toriyama is writing for kids.

What exactly are you doing on a Dragon Ball forum? Martin's point is simple. The setting is based on the Middle Ages, and the Middle Ages was far from a picnic.

I like Dragon Ball? I'm more than just a fan, though. I'm an adult that has to consider the meaning of the franchise's actions outside of the scope of my own personal fandom. I don't think it's a giant leap to be a fan and say to one's self "this is really inappropriate for the intended audience."

Re Game of Thrones:

Again, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The show doesn't make a definitive statement on rape and then move on, it just lets the actions linger, repeating trauma over-and-over and driving forward plot and character development. There's no sense that this was DnD trying process their own personal experiences with rape, it just comes across as the callous cashing in on a historically painful subject manner all being controlled by two privileged white guys.

DnD do a really shitting job of doing anything beyond turning womens' historical powerlessness into a regurgitated entrée and then trying to pass it off as Serious Art.

And frankly, it just plain isn't interesting seeing characters like you tortured for eight seasons and then on top of that receive zero catharsis

[ABED]

My issue with Game of Thrones, as stated before, is how the series isn't about that. It uses the rape of women as if it was some sort of plot device. Women have no control over the production, either. This isn't a personal story of a female auteur creating art to process her trauma, this is two rich white boys using rape to seem serious. Furthermore, this isn't even about those men creating an expression of their sexuality, either, it's just their callous use of rape for Serious Points.

Game of Thrones is reflective of actual Medieval times. What's hard to understand about that?

And the entire point of bringing the Game of Thrones finale up is just about pointing out that going with a plan doesn't equate to good writing and bad writing isn't the result of lack of a plan.

They kinda didn't go with the plan though. They deviated heavily from the source material (which you can consider "the plan"). Season 8 showed that D&D simply aren't good writers on their own.

Martin told them his overall plan. The execution is what matters, not the plan.