Dubs shouldnt bend over backwards to please purists. Subs shouldnt plase Casuals

[Shinsa]

Meh we are splitting peas and carrots at this point. As long as the main overarching story and character motivations are the same as the original then i'm happy. I can deal with a few one off lines here and there.

I like both OG 90s dub for all its flaws and Kai dub equally and I'm glad Kai was given back to the Funi actors to show off there modern acting chops with a more faithful adaption. As for Super...the story telling and script is bad no matter what version you watch, regardless of it being accurate or not so for me personally it's acceptable.

I could be wrong since I don't obsess over every single little line and only watched Super once in Japanese and English. So if anyone can correct me, then please do.

[kemuri07]

Meh we are splitting peas and carrots at this point. As long as the main overarching story and character motivations are the same as the original then i'm happy. I can deal with a few one off lines here and there.

I like both OG 90s dub for all its flaws and Kai dub equally and I'm glad Kai was given back to the Funi actors to show off there modern acting chops with a more faithful adaption. As for Super...the story telling and script is bad no matter what version you watch, regardless of it being accurate or not so for me personally it's acceptable.

I could be wrong since I don't obsess over every single little line and only watched Super once in Japanese and English. So if anyone can correct me, then please do.

This. It's fine to prefer the Japanese dub over the english dub. Different strokes and all of that. But the idea that somehow watching only the original dub makes you a "real fan." That's the sort of gate-keeping I keep talking about.

DBZ's continued success should be cause for celebration, not trying to shit on people for liking something you don't.

[Grimlock]

Imagine how great it would be if, no matter what gender, if they hired someone who could do an English take on the Son family, and I mean a real one, not this "every character needs to sound deeply male" one we have right now.

I don't know about the other characters, but as for Bardock, I think Toei is involved. I went to check Bardock's voice in a few dubs and the voice actors play him differently in Dragon Ball Super Broly when compared to the TV Special (also because Masako Nozawa herself also plays the character differently, of course), so to ensure that difference, Toei probably send some sort of tip or request to the voice actors around the world.

[Shinsa]

Meh we are splitting peas and carrots at this point. As long as the main overarching story and character motivations are the same as the original then i'm happy. I can deal with a few one off lines here and there.

I like both OG 90s dub for all its flaws and Kai dub equally and I'm glad Kai was given back to the Funi actors to show off there modern acting chops with a more faithful adaption. As for Super...the story telling and script is bad no matter what version you watch, regardless of it being accurate or not so for me personally it's acceptable.

I could be wrong since I don't obsess over every single little line and only watched Super once in Japanese and English. So if anyone can correct me, then please do.

This. It's fine to prefer the Japanese dub over the english dub. Different strokes and all of that. But the idea that somehow watching only the original dub makes you a "real fan." That's the sort of gate-keeping I keep talking about.

DBZ's continued success should be cause for celebration, not trying to shit on people for liking something you don't.

Agreed, gatekeeping sucks!

If you prefer Dragonboxes with OG japanese dub then that's great! But don't shit on someone who likes the orangebricks with the old Funi dub. In my opinion even with the silly 90s dub you still get the overall story and themes the show tries to convey...or atleast I do.....

Dragonaball for me has always been inconsistent from Akira Toriyama to Toei animation, all the way to Funimation. For me it's just apart of the property.

[Majin Buu]

It's fine to prefer the Japanese dub over the english dub. Different strokes and all of that. But the idea that somehow watching only the original dub makes you a "real fan." That's the sort of gate-keeping I keep talking about.

DBZ's continued success should be cause for celebration, not trying to shit on people for liking something you don't.

In my experience, it's dub fans that take offence when you state you don't like English DBZ. This whole "gatekeeping" and "purist" complaint about sub fans just doesn't match my experiences as a sub fan.

Admittedly, I'm not very plugged into the fandom outside of Kanzenshuu anymore so perhaps things have changed; but in the past, it's usually been sub fans getting shit thrown at them for their preferences.

[VegettoEX]

Can y'all define what you actually mean by "gatekeeping" here, though? Because I keep seeing it tossed around here and in other threads, and from what context I have to go on, it seems to generally mean "I don't like it when people say they don't like the thing I like."

And that's... well, that's not gatekeeping. That's just a disagreement of opinion.

(EDIT: To Majin Buu's point above, yeah: I find that most of the "gatekeeping" claims are imaginary boogeyman projection in response to very basic disagreements. You're not being told you're "not a real fan" [at least not around here]; you're simply being told we don't like the same thing, and here's the information from the original version that's probably inherently in question due to the discussion being had.)

(Anyway, since it's only just now occurring to me, I also want to say I completely disagree with the entire premise of the thread's title, because it's not some herculean task to somehow produce a dub that's faithful to an original product. There's no "bending over backward" to get there. If anything, it's the opposite: it's more work to make changes.)

[kemuri07]

Can y'all define what you actually mean by "gatekeeping" here, though? Because I keep seeing it tossed around here and in other threads, and from what context I have to go on, it seems to generally mean "I don't like it when people say they don't like the thing I like."

And that's... well, that's not gatekeeping. That's just a disagreement of opinion.

(Anyway, since it's only just now occurring to me, I also want to say I completely disagree with the entire premise of the thread's title, because it's not some herculean task to somehow produce a dub that's faithful to an original product. There's no "bending over backward" to get there. If anything, it's the opposite: it's more work to make changes.)

There's a difference between acknowledging differences between various forms of mediums and preferring a version of it, and claiming that japanese dubs represent the "real" version of DBZ, that anyone who accepts Funimation's remastering is being duped or somehow not wanting the best for the fandom. Gatekeeping creates a hierarchy in which "to be a real fan" you must concern yourself with specific things that the community believe to be issues. Because of the nature of the forums, it lends itself to an echo chamber where people really begin to believe that the opinions represent the majority of the fanbase and not, very likely, only a vocal minority.

It's fine to prefer the Japanese dub over the english dub. Different strokes and all of that. But the idea that somehow watching only the original dub makes you a "real fan." That's the sort of gate-keeping I keep talking about.

DBZ's continued success should be cause for celebration, not trying to shit on people for liking something you don't.

In my experience, it's dub fans that take offence when you state you don't like English DBZ. This whole "gatekeeping" and "purist" complaint about sub fans just doesn't match my experiences as a sub fan.

Admittedly, I'm not very plugged into the fandom outside of Kanzenshuu anymore so perhaps things have changed; but in the past, it's usually been sub fans getting shit thrown at them for their preferences.

I've been watching anime for a long time, and trust me when I say that sub only fans might be some of the most elitist pricks you might fine on the interwebs. And honestly, I'd argue that the reason why dub-only fans might get pissy is precisely because of this attitude of some people in the fandom who view dubs as lesser.

[VegettoEX]

There's a difference between acknowledging differences between various forms of mediums and preferring a version of it, and claiming that japanese dubs represent the "real" version of DBZ, that anyone who accepts Funimation's remastering is being duped or somehow not wanting the best for the fandom. Gatekeeping creates a hierarchy in which "to be a real fan" you must concern yourself with specific things that the community believe to be issues. Because of the nature of the forums, it lends itself to an echo chamber where people really begin to believe that the opinions represent the majority of the fanbase and not, very likely, only a vocal minority.

Sure, but... is this actually happening?

To my point that I've articulated already, "the dub" isn't really even on our radar here at Kanzenshuu. We're not talking about it. We're not particularly interested in it. Again (again), exclusion does not inherently equal condemnation.

The majority of dub talk is instigated by, requested by, and extended by fans of it. I'm (occasionally) willing to lend my opinion on it, but not unprompted, and at that point... I hate to say it this way, but like, "you asked for it"...?

Trust me when I say none of us are chomping at the bit, over two decades later, to constantly re-litigate things we don't like. I'm infinitely more interested in cataloging old magazines I still can't read.

[Majin Buu]

I've been watching anime for a long time, and trust me when I say that sub only fans might be some of the most elitist pricks you might fine on the interwebs.

Then you've found some corner of the internet that I'm not aware of.

But then, I'm skeptical considering the following statement:

And honestly, I'd argue that the reason why dub-only fans might get pissy is precisely because of this attitude of some people in the fandom who view dubs as lesser.

So what? Are sub fans not allowed to not like the dub? Is it inherently wrong to have the opinion that a dub is lesser than the original?

This is what I'm referring to when I say it's usually dub fans that take offence about this. Your statement carries the implication that simply expressing dislike of the dub is some grave transgression that's not allowed.

Because like Mike said, most sub fans are just expressing disagreement about the dub being good.

[Adamant]

claiming that japanese dubs represent the "real" version of DBZ,

...I'm not entirely sure what's supposed to be so incorrect about pointing out that a product in its original form is the product in its original form and an altered version of it is an altered version.

[VegettoEX]

Right, I think the word choice is important here.

"You're not a real fan" is a different statement from "I don't like the English dub; wow it's unfortunate just how bad it is; it's really a shame that if you watch it you're just not getting the original vision."

One's an incredibly lame and eye-roll-inducing personal attack, and the other is an opinion on a piece of art/merchandise.

But it's easy to make up statements like this in a vacuum compared to conversations actually happening with real people in real places, so I'll of course give everyone the benefit of the doubt and ask that you consider who it is you're talking to, what it is you're talking about, and where it is you're doing the talking. Foster the conversations you want to have and you think should be had in the tone they should be had in. (That's what I'm doing right now!)

I really, really, really want to encourage y'all away from this boogeyman usage of "gatekeeping". There's actual disingenuous and dangerous shit going on out there under that category.

-----------------

Late little edit here, but there was a good Twitter thread going around yesterday (which I thought I could easily find but somehow can't now???) about how you don't get newer anime fans to check out classics by DEMANDING they watch what you consider essentials and loading them up with everything and expecting them to do it and forcing and forcing and forcing.

You do it by telling people what you love, why you love it, and how it's enriched your life.

That's the approach Kanzenshuu takes. That's the approach I personally take. That's the approach I encourage everyone to take.

So if I can turn some words around on people, if you see anyone making claims of "not being a real fans", you can tell them they're not a REAL "real fan."

Anyway, I still completely disagree with the entire premise of the thread, and if directly asked, I will indeed stand by the fact that enough was changed in the English dub that I can't recommend it and will then transition into an epic love song about the original Japanese version!

[Cure Dragon 255]

This thread has never been about the English dub. I mean, sure its unfair to expect people that dont speak Spanish to watch the Latin American dub but that was the intent.

[FoolsGil]

I wasn't pleased when the Funi dub didn't change Bulma's stupid line about Trunks' hair color in the Black Arc. So, sure, I agree.

[kemuri07]

There's a difference between acknowledging differences between various forms of mediums and preferring a version of it, and claiming that japanese dubs represent the "real" version of DBZ, that anyone who accepts Funimation's remastering is being duped or somehow not wanting the best for the fandom. Gatekeeping creates a hierarchy in which "to be a real fan" you must concern yourself with specific things that the community believe to be issues. Because of the nature of the forums, it lends itself to an echo chamber where people really begin to believe that the opinions represent the majority of the fanbase and not, very likely, only a vocal minority.

Sure, but... is this actually happening?

Have you read any of the remastered threads?

[MasenkoHA]

There's a difference between acknowledging differences between various forms of mediums and preferring a version of it, and claiming that japanese dubs represent the "real" version of DBZ, that anyone who accepts Funimation's remastering is being duped or somehow not wanting the best for the fandom. Gatekeeping creates a hierarchy in which "to be a real fan" you must concern yourself with specific things that the community believe to be issues. Because of the nature of the forums, it lends itself to an echo chamber where people really begin to believe that the opinions represent the majority of the fanbase and not, very likely, only a vocal minority.

Sure, but... is this actually happening?

Have you read any of the remastered threads?

The remastered threads where fans of the Japanese version and fans of the Funi dub complain about the remastered dub for different reasons? Because those threads are pretty much: Dub fans hate the remastered dub for redubbing stuff from the version they grew up with on Toonami and having different music placements for the Faulconer tracks. Fans of the Japanese version dismiss the dub because they don’t really do anything to make the dub more faithful and most of the redubbing is rendered moot. Where exactly was there any gatekeeping?


People are allowed to not like things. Purist saying Schemmel sucks as Goku or the dub music is terrible or everyone sounds like chain smokers that turn into constipated boxers when they scream =/= Telling dub fans they’re not real fans for liking the replacement score and the Funi voice cast and etc etc

[Aim]

I've seen many fans of the Japanese version say they refuse to watch even Kai in English, despite it being a sincere attempt at giving them what they said they wanted for years. I just don't understand the logic of fans who complained about the Z dub for years, only to say they still won't watch Kai simply because it's not the original Japanese. If that's the case then why bother rallying for those "improvements" in the first place?

Yes, because most of the improvements slowly disappeared. You're talking about fans post Kai from the looks of it.

And how are dub fans neurotic? Labelling a portion of the fanbase for their tastes isn't going to do your argument any favours. There are assholes on both sides without a doubt, but you can't paint all dub fans with the same brush.

I never said all dub fans, obviously. They are neurotic in the sense lots of them freak out when they hear Goku's voice in Japanese, and would never allow a similar voice in English.

I used the phrase "impossible standard" because I was referring to those fans of the original who still won't watch Kai in English. They'll never be satisfied with anything that isn't the Japanese version. That dub was extremely accurate for the most part, and the performances were great. Just because it holds on to a few names from the old dub it somehow makes the entire thing unwatchable? If that's the case the dub might as well go in its own direction.

Have you seen what people have been saying? It's not the "most accurate" we can get. Not wanting to watch Kai is perfectly reasonable, Kai stopped going uphill not long after it aired. It doesn't hold "a few" old names, it holds on to basically every dubism from the old dub. You're trying to say they are for the most part completely accurate, when that can't be farther from the truth.

Script and name changes are one thing, but there's also the way characters are presented, and are acted out.

What does any of this have to do with Capitalism? You condemn Capitalism while posting with a device that you wouldn't have access to without it.

Believe it or not, there's more harm Capitalism has done than good. In the case of Dragon Ball, everything is for profit, these companies don't care about us, or the series, and as you can see most people eat this stuff up like no tomorrow, no matter how horse shit it is. If we had progressed passed Capitalism, we wouldn't have this problem. In fact, I'd make the argument that even if were in Socialism, we'd still have the devices we are using now, except they'd be more efficient.

It has everything to do with Capitalism.

I don't know about the other characters, but as for Bardock, I think Toei is involved. I went to check Bardock's voice in a few dubs and the voice actors play him differently in Dragon Ball Super Broly when compared to the TV Special (also because Masako Nozawa herself also plays the character differently, of course), so to ensure that difference, Toei probably send some sort of tip or request to the voice actors around the world.

That's very interesting, however I'd need some kind of evidence. I don't think Toei gets that involved with overseas VAing, they are a Japanese based company afterall.

[Grimlock]

That's very interesting, however I'd need some kind of evidence. I don't think Toei gets that involved with overseas VAing, they are a Japanese based company afterall.

What? Something written that I can simply take it and post it here? There isn't that kind of evidence. This is a common behavior that happens in the voice acting industry, it's part of the dubbing process. When a movie will be released, it can happen that someone from a studio (for instance, someone from Paramount Studios) to go and watch that country's dubbed version before the release. This is something you would only know if you work or at least is well involved with the subject.

Luckily for you, though, there are some voice actors who have social media and they tell us about the whole process of dubbing and such, you can watch this one. It's in another language, mind you, but an evidence, nonetheless.


I'm so, so very sorry for the delay in responding you. I just got my computer back and doing a post like this one which I knew I'd have to post a link from a cellphone would be a nightmare.

[Dbzfan94]

Agreed. Dubs with 100% “accurate” translations end up sounding so incredibly stiff and awkward. Some fans are never satisfied no matter what a dub does so it begs the question why watch any dub just to complain about it that it’s not exactly like the Japanese. At that point, just watch the Japanese.

[jjgp1112]

That's very interesting, however I'd need some kind of evidence. I don't think Toei gets that involved with overseas VAing, they are a Japanese based company afterall.

What? Something written that I can simply take it and post it here? There isn't that kind of evidence. This is a common behavior that happens in the voice acting industry, it's part of the dubbing process. When a movie will be released, it can happen that someone from a studio (for instance, someone from Paramount Studios) to go and watch that country's dubbed version before the release. This is something you would only know if you work or at least is well involved with the subject.

Luckily for you, though, there are some voice actors who have social media and they tell us about the whole process of dubbing and such, you can watch this one. It's in another language, mind you, but an evidence, nonetheless.


I'm so, so very sorry for the delay in responding you. I just got my computer back and doing a post like this one which I knew I'd have to post a link from a cellphone would be a nightmare.

Yeah, Toei is also pretty involved in the One Piece dub. They had to approve of all of the Funimation voices in the beginning; shit, I think Oda was even involved.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

That's very interesting, however I'd need some kind of evidence. I don't think Toei gets that involved with overseas VAing, they are a Japanese based company afterall.

What? Something written that I can simply take it and post it here? There isn't that kind of evidence. This is a common behavior that happens in the voice acting industry, it's part of the dubbing process. When a movie will be released, it can happen that someone from a studio (for instance, someone from Paramount Studios) to go and watch that country's dubbed version before the release. This is something you would only know if you work or at least is well involved with the subject.

Luckily for you, though, there are some voice actors who have social media and they tell us about the whole process of dubbing and such, you can watch this one. It's in another language, mind you, but an evidence, nonetheless.


I'm so, so very sorry for the delay in responding you. I just got my computer back and doing a post like this one which I knew I'd have to post a link from a cellphone would be a nightmare.

Yeah, Toei is also pretty involved in the One Piece dub. They had to approve of all of the Funimation voices in the beginning; shit, I think Oda was even involved.

That's similar to how the casting was done by Viz for Sailor Moon's redub in 2013/2014, as it seems Naoko Takeuchi herself was personally involved in decisions as to who would voice the characters. Another case where the original creator of the series is in on the process on the dub side.